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  1. #401
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    I will cop to having a mostly irrational distate for Sanchez' game (for years). Frankly, I think his game represents a significant handicap to the Yankee pitching staff. And the idea you have to fix a catcher so that he's passable behind the plate should be setting off alarm bells.
    Gary can't block pitches, but he's ok at framing.
    Let's get him better at blocking pitches. Ok, a bit of improvement, now he sucks at framing.
    Let's teach him to frame better, but now he can't block pitches. Let's bring in another new guy to teach him how to catch, we'll concentrate on framing.

    Now he can't do anything and he can't hit.


    So it occurs to me that part of Gary's problem is that UMPIRES are awful. They fall victim to good framing catchers. On top of that, they each have their own little special view of the strike zone and what it should be. Plus, you know they're human and miss things once (or a lot) in a while.



    GET THE Stinkin' COMPUTERIZED strike zone. Please.

    Manfred - you suck.
    He finally met himself, coming down an up-staircase, and the encounter was crushing.

  2. #402
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    IMO Sanchez either needs to squat up on his toes all the time, or learn another position. The leg thing this year messed him up totally.
    "Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'" -- Mickey Mantle

  3. #403

    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sjb23 View Post
    IMO Sanchez either needs to squat up on his toes all the time, or learn another position. The leg thing this year messed him up totally.
    He could do the leg down with nobody on base, he'd just need to adjust with runners on when a passed ball is worse than not optimally framing a pitch.

    That said I think more than anything he just needs to hit. I'd love to see him adapt his defense, but if we really want a defensive catcher moving on is the only answer. Gary is not a good defensive catcher he just has varying degrees of bad that are amplified when he's not hitting. At this point focus almost all of his efforts on hitting and let him do whatever he is more comfortable doing defensively in a given situation. And ideally take him out of the game in situations where his defense has a high probability of losing the game.

  4. #404
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Better at hitting. But just not the catcher that the team needs.
    Ready for Novembe and Thanksgiving!

  5. #405
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    FYI. I came across this on Fansgraph today looking at Cano's numbers and just shaking my head. I don't know what Brian will do. It's a reality check. Forget the improvement on his Pena stance, blocking, movement, pass balls. We all have opinions as to what we want. I wish him the best but want to trade Sanchez (I don't want another team's problem) or just release him (walk) but there are others that feel he will be back with Higgy. It is a good read.

    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/gary-san...o-trade-value/

    PS/ ME. peanut gallery. Our top minor catcher prospect is another power hitter (I think he is highly rank, #6 of all prospects) but I don't like our logistics that build our roster. Epstein is being sought by Phillies but I think Sandy (Mets) will get him.

  6. #406

    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Add that all up, and you get an offensive performance that hit new lows this past season and has been trending downwards for quite some time. Over the last three years, Sánchez has a .200/.296/.453 slash line with a 98 wRC+ in roughly 1,000 plate appearances. Since the middle of June 2019, he’s batting .168/.272/.379 with a 74 wRC+ in close to 400 plate appearances. Some of the blame could go to varying injuries over time, but catching takes a toll on the body, so we can’t exactly wish those away in the future.
    Ugh, terrible take by the writer. If you have to use selective endpoints to prove your point...

    Gary was great in 2019 and after that stretch from mid June through July that the writer so conveniently starts his time frame, he had about a 1.000 OPS for the final 2 months of the season. By selecting 2018 as the starting point and mid June 2019 as another starting point he gives the appearance of a downward trend then isn't really there, especially when he starts out by admitting you can't really put too much stock in 2020.

  7. #407
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sd. View Post
    Ugh, terrible take by the writer. If you have to use selective endpoints to prove your point...

    Gary was great in 2019 and after that stretch from mid June through July that the writer so conveniently starts his time frame, he had about a 1.000 OPS for the final 2 months of the season. By selecting 2018 as the starting point and mid June 2019 as another starting point he gives the appearance of a downward trend then isn't really there, especially when he starts out by admitting you can't really put too much stock in 2020.
    It’s important to note that nothing you’ve refuted in the writer’s work makes Sanchez any less lousy than he’s become.
    “Nobody teaches life anything.” - Gabriel García Márquez

  8. #408
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sd. View Post
    Ugh, terrible take by the writer. If you have to use selective endpoints to prove your point...

    Gary was great in 2019 and after that stretch from mid June through July that the writer so conveniently starts his time frame, he had about a 1.000 OPS for the final 2 months of the season. By selecting 2018 as the starting point and mid June 2019 as another starting point he gives the appearance of a downward trend then isn't really there, especially when he starts out by admitting you can't really put too much stock in 2020.
    One point I will give you. He still K% at 29%. I was a supporter and felt it was injuries. Like you, I listened to Brian talk about the HRs and injuries for his post season. Well that didn't work out and I see no reason to keep him and hope for 2017. Hindsight is a waste - we should have traded him after 2019 because of his defense and 2018, cut bait. I think this is right... Instead Brian solution was to hire a new personal catcher trainer to fix him.... Some posters wanted this move last off season. I don't want to see him on the roster with Higgy next year but rather have Higgy sharing (70-80%) with a solid BC. Fansgraph is good compared to other 'trade' articles (Lindor) I read. He sucked in 2018 and was the starting point and 2019 was not as great as 2017 or 2016. Look I would trade Voit (high) now if I could get a LHP.

    Thank you.

  9. #409

    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    It’s important to note that nothing you’ve refuted in the writer’s work makes Sanchez any less lousy than he’s become.
    He was lousy for a 2 month COVID season. Agreed. So was Gleyber. I'm not ready to throw him away like some posters either. Different approaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by bucky View Post
    Some posters wanted this move last off season.
    I wasn't here but in conversations with Yankees fans on the Internet in general, I remember people were also wanting to give up on Clint Frazier after 2019 as well. I'm just saying, sometimes patience with young players pays off.

  10. #410
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sd. View Post
    He was lousy for a 2 month COVID season. Agreed. So was Gleyber. I'm not ready to throw him away like some posters either. Different approaches.
    Sanchez has been a lousy catcher his entire career. His bat, when it’s not full of holes, negated his poor approach behind the plate somewhat. But he’s always been a DH in a catcher’s costume. The sooner the Yankees understand that, the better they’ll be.

    Gleyber is also lousy at his position, and he’ll turn 24 in mid December. Sanchez will be 28 in two weeks. I’ve been advocating that Torres needs to be used as a superUtil guy covering 2B, SS, 3B, LF, etc.
    “Nobody teaches life anything.” - Gabriel García Márquez

  11. #411

    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Gary started out as very good at pitch framing but bad at blocking. The Yankees attempts to fix that have made him worse.

    Gleyber was average to slightly below average at SS in 2019 over a much larger sample size than 2020. Just leave him alone and let it play out.

    2020 is nothing to take seriously.

  12. #412
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Agree to disagree on Gary. He's a DH on a team with too many DHs.

    However, going by the 2019 season, what metrics indicate Torres was only slightly below average at SS?


    FanGraph's numbers on Gleyber's 2019 season at SS*
    23rd Def
    23rd UZR/150
    23rd UZR
    19th ErrR
    19th RngR
    29th OOZ

    Fangraph's numbers for Gleyber's 2019 & 2020 seasons at SS*
    27th Def
    27th UZR/150
    25th UZR
    25th ErrR
    19th RngR
    29th OOZ

    * I adjusted the minimum innings at SS to match the threshold that Torres achieved for both 2019 and 2020. 650 for 2019, 950 for both seasons.
    “Nobody teaches life anything.” - Gabriel García Márquez

  13. #413

    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    However, going by the 2019 season, what metrics indicate Torres was only slightly below average at SS?
    2020 he was bad, no arguing, but his UZR/150 in 2019 was -4.7. I think you can easily live with a player who hits like Gleyber as a SS giving up 5 runs a year on defense.

    The problem with just ranking players and looking at their position is most SS don't hit like Gleyber, so if they play defense worse then him they aren't going to get a full or half seasons worth of chances to qualify.

  14. #414
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sd. View Post
    2020 he was bad, no arguing, but his UZR/150 in 2019 was -4.7. I think you can easily live with a player who hits like Gleyber as a SS giving up 5 runs a year on defense.

    The problem with just ranking players and looking at their position is most SS don't hit like Gleyber, so if they play defense worse then him they aren't going to get a full or half seasons worth of chances to qualify.
    He was 27th in UZR/150, which means 26 other SS rated better than he did in that metric. I get that his value is heavily weighted towards his bat, but he's not a 1B or LF. Frankly, that's why I want him to be a SuperUtil. Not good anywhere, but better than replacement level with a bat you want in the lineup nightly.
    “Nobody teaches life anything.” - Gabriel García Márquez

  15. #415

    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    He was 27th in UZR/150, which means 26 other SS rated better than he did in that metric. I get that his value is heavily weighted towards his bat, but he's not a 1B or LF. Frankly, that's why I want him to be a SuperUtil. Not good anywhere, but better than replacement level with a bat you want in the lineup nightly.
    You don't have to rank and sort each player and find their place on the list to determine their value yourself. The point of the stat is to weigh all defensive contributions of SS, come up with an average, and then compare each player to that average. He was 4.7 runs below average. With his offense, that is an All-Star SS. An All-Star SS that is cost controlled for the next 4 years is hugely valuable especially to a team that is maxed out in their budget. It goes without saying that most teams don't have an All-Star level SS let alone a cost controlled one.

    I'd just like to take this opportunity to say that I know we don't agree on much, but I still appreciate talking with you.

  16. #416
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Call me old-school, but IMO analytics sometimes blinds us from looking at a bigger picture.

    In the case of Sanchez, there are many other factors to consider besides him having such tough times these past couple of seasons. The Yanks have spent mega-time and mega-money on Sanchez' development. They have catching prospects that are maybe two seasons away. They probably realize the amount of pressure this young man has had to deal with the past few years, but always recognize his effort and dedication to improve. I'm not even going to get into his 2020 performance because there are so many unusual things that come into play.

    IMO there's a time to give up and cut the losses, but that time isn't now.

    Patience is a virtue.
    "Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'" -- Mickey Mantle

  17. #417
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sd. View Post
    You don't have to rank and sort each player and find their place on the list to determine their value yourself. The point of the stat is to weigh all defensive contributions of SS, come up with an average, and then compare each player to that average. He was 4.7 runs below average. With his offense, that is an All-Star SS. An All-Star SS that is cost controlled for the next 4 years is hugely valuable especially to a team that is maxed out in their budget. It goes without saying that most teams don't have an All-Star level SS let alone a cost controlled one.

    I'd just like to take this opportunity to say that I know we don't agree on much, but I still appreciate talking with you.
    Hey, it's the internet. If I'm agreeing with you I might just reply with a "This" or just nod my head in agreement. And thank you!
    “Nobody teaches life anything.” - Gabriel García Márquez

  18. #418
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Sanchez has been a lousy catcher his entire career. His bat, when it’s not full of holes, negated his poor approach behind the plate somewhat. But he’s always been a DH in a catcher’s costume. The sooner the Yankees understand that, the better they’ll be.
    I agree that the C experiment should be retired in 2021, unless they retain him as a BUC and he miraculously figures out that his giant body needs to shift in front of balls in the dirt. I think his rookie year he was actually a very good catcher with a PB problem. He was elite at shutting down the running game. He was framing. He just had too many balls get by him, which at the time seemed like something that could certainly improve. Fast forward to today, and it hasn't. Same problem persists, but either through poor coaching or poor execution the rest of Gary's defensive game has regressed significantly. I think he had a chance of being a passable if not good defensive catcher in aggregate, but that ship has sailed.

    Quote Originally Posted by sd. View Post
    Gary started out as very good at pitch framing but bad at blocking. The Yankees attempts to fix that have made him worse.

    2020 is nothing to take seriously.
    I agree with that first part, and add that he was elite at managing baserunners.

    Re: 2020, I might also agree with you if we were looking at this in a vacuum. This hasn't come out of nowhere. His defense has gotten progressively worse and his bat has gone through extended periods of suck, never quite returning to the promise he showed in '16/'17. I think the Yankees would be unwise to continue to count on him as their starting catcher. At best, he should take up the BUC spot to start with. Perhaps see if he can be adequate at 1B (doubtful) and act as a backup there, and at DH. But he should be guaranteed nothing.

  19. #419
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sjb23 View Post
    Call me old-school, but IMO analytics sometimes blinds us from looking at a bigger picture.

    In the case of Sanchez, there are many other factors to consider besides him having such tough times these past couple of seasons. The Yanks have spent mega-time and mega-money on Sanchez' development. They have catching prospects that are maybe two seasons away. They probably realize the amount of pressure this young man has had to deal with the past few years, but always recognize his effort and dedication to improve. I'm not even going to get into his 2020 performance because there are so many unusual things that come into play.

    IMO there's a time to give up and cut the losses, but that time isn't now.

    Patience is a virtue.
    If they could get reasonable trade value and offload his ~$5MM or so in payroll, I'd probably do it at this point. Which is tragic, considering what his future looked like and what his trade value was in 2017.

    That said, given that I don't think they can extract worthwhile value in trade, I think he's coming back. The question is whether the Yankees have the stones to have him come back as BUC.

  20. #420
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I agree that the C experiment should be retired in 2021, unless they retain him as a BUC and he miraculously figures out that his giant body needs to shift in front of balls in the dirt. I think his rookie year he was actually a very good catcher with a PB problem. He was elite at shutting down the running game. He was framing. He just had too many balls get by him, which at the time seemed like something that could certainly improve. Fast forward to today, and it hasn't. Same problem persists, but either through poor coaching or poor execution the rest of Gary's defensive game has regressed significantly. I think he had a chance of being a passable if not good defensive catcher in aggregate, but that ship has sailed.
    Full disclosure: If the Mets and Dodgers were in the AL, then Piazza should've been a DH.

    Forget about hoping the Yankee catcher can be replacement level, or average, or rationalize-away why the passed balls don't suck so bad. How about having a catcher that makes your pitching better?

    Do any of us think Sanchez is that guy?
    “Nobody teaches life anything.” - Gabriel García Márquez

  21. #421
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    If they could get reasonable trade value and offload his ~$5MM or so in payroll, I'd probably do it at this point. Which is tragic, considering what his future looked like and what his trade value was in 2017.

    That said, given that I don't think they can extract worthwhile value in trade, I think he's coming back. The question is whether the Yankees have the stones to have him come back as BUC.

    I agree with your posts. For me these are the things that I don't like. I am not as good as others here and maybe you can't do it 1) no way you pay a BUC 5M 2) I don't think Sanchez will be offered a contract (I think in 2 weeks). He becomes a FA (not sure about that) I don't think any team will pay him 5M. My fear is (like Gardy). Brian (who loves this) brings Sanchez back at less than 5M and he thinks he did a great job (this is where I disagree). I have no problem with Higgy as SC and get a solid BUC (like Romine who filled in or a AA/AAA minor league).

    Losing Joe and Tony hurt Sanchez big time.

  22. #422

    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sd. View Post

    Gleyber was average to slightly below average at SS in 2019 over a much larger sample size than 2020. Just leave him alone and let it play out.

    2020 is nothing to take seriously.
    Totally agree. 50-60 game season, very small picture, no fans either...which I think helps certain players.

  23. #423

    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Full disclosure: If the Mets and Dodgers were in the AL, then Piazza should've been a DH.

    Forget about hoping the Yankee catcher can be replacement level, or average, or rationalize-away why the passed balls don't suck so bad. How about having a catcher that makes your pitching better?

    Do any of us think Sanchez is that guy?
    I don't think any catcher is going to turn our current 2-5 into a legitimate 2-5. I think getting better pitchers is the key to making the pitching staff better.

    As for the catcher, I want the catcher that is going to make the team better. If that is a catcher that makes the pitchers job harder, then the pitchers job is harder.

  24. #424
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by IAyankee View Post
    Totally agree. 50-60 game season, very small picture, no fans either...which I think helps certain players.
    Ted Williams might have enjoyed this past season.

  25. #425
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    Re: 2020 Gary Sanchez Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sjb23 View Post
    Call me old-school, but IMO analytics sometimes blinds us from looking at a bigger picture.

    In the case of Sanchez, there are many other factors to consider besides him having such tough times these past couple of seasons. The Yanks have spent mega-time and mega-money on Sanchez' development. They have catching prospects that are maybe two seasons away. They probably realize the amount of pressure this young man has had to deal with the past few years, but always recognize his effort and dedication to improve. I'm not even going to get into his 2020 performance because there are so many unusual things that come into play.

    IMO there's a time to give up and cut the losses, but that time isn't now.

    Patience is a virtue.
    Perhaps you're right in your "that time isn't now" conclusion. However, I'd make him the BUC to Higashioka because that does take the spotlight off him. He can have the occasional game behind the plate and do the occasional DH stint--and work on his problems more quietly than as the front-line catcher.

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