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  1. #51

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Yeah, it only took them how many years to figure out their coaching/development/analytics was pitching poison? That changes were needed to leadership roles. Maybe a Nobel Prize nomination is warranted?
    You make so many good points. It's just that you always overstate your case.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  2. #52
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    You make so many good points. It's just that you always overstate your case.
    I posted a joking gif. Don't take it so seriously.
    Calmer than you are

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  3. #53

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    I posted a joking gif. Don't take it so seriously.
    That's just it, I don't. I called it a "schtick" because that's what it is.

    I actually enjoy your schtick. Don't change a thing.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  4. #54
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  5. #55
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty one View Post
    I wonder if Cole has been asked any questions regarding the Astros scandal? Did he have knowledge of it when he was there? Just wondering?
    It occurred to me that maybe Cole’s disgruntled exit out of Houston had something to do with that he was playing with a team of cheaters and didn’t like it but didn’t want to say anything.

  6. #56

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PinstripeDynasty View Post
    It occurred to me that maybe Cole’s disgruntled exit out of Houston had something to do with that he was playing with a team of cheaters and didn’t like it but didn’t want to say anything.

    I am still worried about the possibility of the Astros pitchers cheating. Having cole, Verlander, and Morton (2 years ago) pitch as well as they, with none of them being homegrown guys, just seems so suspicious. Then add the fact the offense was cheating, so why not the pitching staff? just a lot of red flags.

  7. #57

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanks1026 View Post
    I am still worried about the possibility of the Astros pitchers cheating. Having cole, Verlander, and Morton (2 years ago) pitch as well as they, with none of them being homegrown guys, just seems so suspicious. Then add the fact the offense was cheating, so why not the pitching staff? just a lot of red flags.
    It is definitely a concern.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  8. #58
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanks1026 View Post
    I am still worried about the possibility of the Astros pitchers cheating. Having cole, Verlander, and Morton (2 years ago) pitch as well as they, with none of them being homegrown guys, just seems so suspicious. Then add the fact the offense was cheating, so why not the pitching staff? just a lot of red flags.
    Well at least now Cole would be cheating for our side. But not sure outside of doctoring the ball how pitchers could cheat.

  9. #59
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PinstripeDynasty View Post
    It occurred to me that maybe Cole’s disgruntled exit out of Houston had something to do with that he was playing with a team of cheaters and didn’t like it but didn’t want to say anything.
    That’s the narrative I’m going with. Dude was straight up wearing a ‘Team Boras’ hat after their WS Game 7 loss once the cameras entered the clubhouse. He was D-O-N-E with Houston.
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

  10. #60
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Cole addresses the fears some here have of him potentially doing something illegal to increase his spin rates.

    https://nypost.com/2020/02/26/new-cl...-trevor-bauer/

    As identified by Statcast, Cole’s spin rate on his four-seam fastball in his final season in Pittsburgh (2017) was 2,164 revolutions per minute, compared to 2,379 rpm in his first Astros season (2018) and 2,530 rpm in his second Astros season last year. The Statcast data, though, has Cole throwing three-and-a-half times more four-seamers than sinkers in 2017, at a time when the sinker was by far the key pitch in his arsenal. The system was just three years old then and has annually gotten better at identifying pitch types. Cole said it had his 2017 usage ratios close to backward.

    Nevertheless, the Statcast data shows that already in 2017 Cole threw 16 of his four-seamers at more than 2,400 rpms and 55 in all above 2,350. Cole said the Astros told him that isolating those peaks motivated them to want to acquire him and get him into a program that emphasized throwing four-seamers up in the zone frequently.

    Cole, who had his best two seasons in Houston before signing a pitching-record nine-year, $324 million pact with the Yankees, said he would not directly respond to Bauer. But he did talk generally on the question of whether the Astros were better at creating a sticky product and/or teaching how to use that product by repeating three times, “No.”

    MLB said its study of spin data matched to video revealed the Astros gaining no unique advantage over other teams from use of an advanced sticky substance.

    Cole detailed a variety of reasons why his personal spin/velocity improved on his fastball, slider and curve in both years with Houston after leaving Pittsburgh. Cole said he was healthier. He was in his prime. He was stronger. He smoothed out his delivery. He went from the Pirates, who harped on throwing sinkers, to the Astros, who had him throw four-seam fastballs to the top of the zone. He praised Astros pitching coach Brent Strom and Houston’s analytic department for being expert at unleashing more spin and more velocity.
    “I don’t know who is creating (sticky stuff) or who is creating those rumors,” Cole said. “I feel like there are a lot of different ways to increase spin rate. I have done it for two consecutive years chasing some of the principles I learned over there on how you spin the ball. It is as simple as you want both your fingers to come off the four-seamer at about the same time because then there is no leak in the kinetic energy from your hand to the ball. If I am in the right slot, I can really get after spinning it because I know I have the right axis and I learned the right axis basically because of my good reps, so I get after it and I feel like I spin it harder.

    “Spin efficiency is like the gyro. The more consistent you get, the more spin efficiency you have, the less you have to spin it to make the action you want. There are like 500 million different wormholes about spin that I’ve studied and learned of.”
    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  11. #61

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    ^^ Please Cole be everything you're telling us you are.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  12. #62
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread



    Hot damn Cole’s going to be fun. He’s probably a got a good book in him, too.
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

  13. #63
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Trevor Bauer is the one pushing the “foreign substance” angle. He is saying there is no way to increase spin rate that dramatically naturally.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  14. #64
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    Trevor Bauer is the one pushing the “foreign substance” angle. He is saying there is no way to increase spin rate that dramatically naturally.
    Since Bauer and Cole hate each other going back to their UCLA days, I think it's safe to say that Bauer will never pitch for the Yankees.

  15. #65

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    Trevor Bauer is the one pushing the “foreign substance” angle. He is saying there is no way to increase spin rate that dramatically naturally.
    I have to lean towards bauer but, I hope he is wrong. If cole said he is stronger, healthier, in his prime, ect, how does that apply to morton or Verlander? Why did they get so much better then? I have a hard time believing anything from an astro or former astro right now. The success of that pitching staff is just unreal.

  16. #66
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanks1026 View Post
    I have to lean towards bauer but, I hope he is wrong. If cole said he is stronger, healthier, in his prime, ect, how does that apply to morton or Verlander? Why did they get so much better then? I have a hard time believing anything from an astro or former astro right now. The success of that pitching staff is just unreal.
    Verlander is a HOF pitcher who kicked freakin butt in Detroit and he also kicked butt in Houston, while Charlie Morton just finished 3rd for the AL CYA while pitching for the Rays.

    Bauer is a bit of a loon. He was legit fun to listen to in that Ruocco podcast the other day, but that was in the presence of Sonny Gray and CC Sabathia, which perhaps sorta kept some guardrails on his train of thought.
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

  17. #67

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Verlander is a HOF pitcher who kicked freakin butt in Detroit and he also kicked butt in Houston, while Charlie Morton just finished 3rd for the AL CYA while pitching for the Rays.

    Bauer is a bit of a loon. He was legit fun to listen to in that Ruocco podcast the other day, but that was in the presence of Sonny Gray and CC Sabathia, which perhaps sorta kept some guardrails on his train of thought.
    Look at Verlander season stats before he was traded from Detroit and after. It's like night and day.

    And if Morton was cheating with the Astros by doctoring up the baseball, do you think that would stop when he went to the Ray's?

  18. #68
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanks1026 View Post
    Look at Verlander season stats before he was traded from Detroit and after. It's like night and day.

    And if Morton was cheating with the Astros by doctoring up the baseball, do you think that would stop when he went to the Ray's?
    I think the Rays are one of the best organizations in MLB at getting the most out of their pitching. I'm not worried about Morton doctoring a baseball. The Rays would've shoved him over the Sunshine Skyway if he tried to do that.

    I get that optics look suspicious re: Verlander, but nah. Not when you look at his entire career. He was well on his way to a HOF induction when he got traded for a BUC and spare parts that are likely to never amount to anything in MLB. Detroit was a dumpster fire.
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

  19. #69
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanks1026 View Post
    Look at Verlander season stats before he was traded from Detroit and after. It's like night and day.
    Verlander's last 9 starts with Detroit in 2017: 62 IP, 73K, 2.32 ERA, opponents BA .188, opponents' OPS .581. Thank God the Astros built him up from that downward trend.

    *Yes, I know his 5 Astros starts that year were even better. So what. Great pitcher got great again and it started in Detroit. It's far from unprecedented.
    "This game has a heartbeat, Brian." -- Joe Torre

  20. #70
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    That wasn't very good.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  21. #71

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread


  22. #72

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    If people think it stopped with the hitters, and they didn't overturn every stone to find a way to help pitchers out discretely, they are sleeping.

    Coles numbers show huge improvements in Houston. Let's hope nothing changes here.
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  23. #73

    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    In his last start against the spring training Tigers squad, Cole twice gave up back to back homers. He later said his stuff was good that day.

  24. #74
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread


    If "most" pitchers are using some sort of substance (perhaps including a pine tar element), why was it that Pineda was bounced for a while?

  25. #75
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    Re: 2020 Gerrit Cole Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    Trevor Bauer is the one pushing the “foreign substance” angle. He is saying there is no way to increase spin rate that dramatically naturally.

    Well, that's an empirical claim. It should be possible to provide evidence for it. If it's proposed that the rate increase is owing to a combo of pine tar and substance X, then MLB should be able to find out whether that's going on and be able to scare the pants off the perps.


    If the Astros' rate increased dramatically owing to--e.g.--Verlander's and Cole's ditching of the 2-seamer that seems unobjectionable.

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