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  1. #426
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that would be dumb. What's the MLBPA going to do if MLB has cold, hard evidence of individual players cheating? I'd wish the MLBPA good luck with that in the court of public opinion. In fact, if MLBPA squeaked about it I'd bet fan backlash would be harsh, which could have actually increased MLB's leverage in CBA negotiations.

    The MLBPA really should get taken to task A LOT MORE by fans for protecting cheaters (among some other things). They should fight a lot harder for young players and those that follow a code of conduct that supports the game that provides them all their livelihood. Those that step outside that code of conduct create risk to the game and should honestly be treated as pariahs by the rest of the players in the union.
    Well, MLB did the MLBPA a huge favor by not just issuing a blanket 50 game suspension for the players who played on the 2017 Astros. Make them fight the evidence in court. Court of opinion, as you've noted, would not bode well for the players.
    “Nobody teaches life anything.” - Gabriel García Márquez

  2. #427
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    IMO, both of your suggestions are non-starters.

    How do you enforce a post-season ban? If they win the AL West, the #2 team gets the championship? That change means that a team who did not qualify for the playoffs benefits, be it the #2 team who replaces them or the next team who replaces the #2 team as the wild card.

    As for the 20 home games, 1) I can’t see the MLBPA going along as it affects the players’ living conditions and 2) how do you divide those 20 games amongst the 14 AL teams such that all other AL teams play the same number of home games. It would be a logistical nightmare.

    ———————————————————

    As for the question of player punishment, that again brings the MLBPA into play. Even if you could get past the MLBPA, please show me irrefutable proof that the players, while at bat, utilized the banging trash can. How do you know who to punish - as I understand it, the only player named was Beltran and I believe that naming was to put him on notice that MLB would be watching him.
    Agreed on your top comments. As for this latter section, strong disagreement. MLB should not feel compelled to kowtow to the PA in this situation. I'd dare them to fight it frankly. The MLBPA needs to stop protecting cheaters. We as fans should really demand it in an organized way. I'm sure some will demand it in a less organized but still meaningful way - by disengaging from the sport.

    It's been reported that MLB collected copious amounts of evidence - text messages, emails, etc. There is a zero percent chance they couldn't positively identify any players directly involved. They should be penalized, and named publicly.

  3. #428
    NYYF Cy Young


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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    I don't know if this can be enforced but every mention of Houston's WS win in 2017 should be required to have an asterisk in the Astros home ballpark for life. Any banner or picture in the ballpark.

    It should be quite visible the championship is tainted and players, fans, etc should always be reminded of that for long after the draft picks being lost and staff suspended/fired is felt. The equivalent of a scarlet letter.

  4. #429
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Really hurts since the Yankees lost all the games in Houston during the 17 alcs
    Listen to the bell Grossbard, it tolls for thee.

  5. #430
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    They should have to change their name to the Houston Asterisks
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  6. #431
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Kelly View Post
    Really hurts since the Yankees lost all the games in Houston during the 17 alcs
    Kind of like the Nationals did this year...oh wait never mind.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  7. #432
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Agreed on your top comments. As for this latter section, strong disagreement. MLB should not feel compelled to kowtow to the PA in this situation. I'd dare them to fight it frankly. The MLBPA needs to stop protecting cheaters. We as fans should really demand it in an organized way. I'm sure some will demand it in a less organized but still meaningful way - by disengaging from the sport.

    It's been reported that MLB collected copious amounts of evidence - text messages, emails, etc. There is a zero percent chance they couldn't positively identify any players directly involved. They should be penalized, and named publicly.
    Agreed all over. They went into these investigations giving amnesty to players in hopes the players would speak freely implicating whoever was responsible. However, it turns out the players (and Cora) were actually the ones responsible. MLB mishandled this greatly. The players needed to feel this more. They inflated their numbers with cheating so they should see their numbers deflated with suspensions.
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  8. #433
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Roberto Kelly View Post
    Really hurts since the Yankees lost all the games in Houston during the 17 alcs
    Yankees did not hit at all at Houston. That had nothing to do with the Astros stealing signs.

  9. #434

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    Yankees did not hit at all at Houston. That had nothing to do with the Astros stealing signs.
    Yeah, I agree and while the Astros certainly cheated and by no means I'm giving them a pass in 2017, Yankees scored a grand total of 3 runs in 4 games...that is not due to the Astros stealing signs.

    Game 1: Lost 2-1. Was 2-0 Astros until the top of the 9th when the Yankees got one run off Giles, but not enough.
    Game 2: Lost 2-1. Verlander threw a 1-run CG and the Astros walk off on bottom of the 9th off Chapman, but even if the Yankees held on and went 1-1 into extra innings, chances are they are likely to have been walked off eventually with who was left in the bullpen.
    Game 6: Lost 7-1. Bottom of the 5th when Severino walked three batters (walk, walk, RBI double, walk, 2-run single) was the bigger damage IMO, and even if they somehow don't give up a run there, bottom of the 8th 4 runs off the good part of the bullpen made it a loss regardless.
    Game 7: Lost 4-0. Didn't score even a run, and won't have won regardless of how many the Astros scored.

    If anything, in this case I think the Dodgers have a more legit reason to be fuming than the Yankees IMO.

  10. #435
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Logan Morrison claims that the Astros have been using the garbage can scheme since at least 2014.

    https://www.12up.com/posts/logan-mor...s-01dygamdnmy1

  11. #436

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by PinstripeDynasty View Post
    This is little more than a slap on the wrist. No harm to them past or future other than replacing their manager.

    A real penalty would be postseason ban for 3 years (or next year that they qualify, at minimum) and loss of 20 home games. Maybe then would there be a real deterrent. As it is, it was very much worth it for them to cheat, and worth it for other teams to try the same.
    I don't how you can implement that and expect Astro fans to continue going to the ballpark? It's a non-starter. Suppose you implement your proposal, and nevertheless, the Astros end up w/the best record in their division, or even the best record in the AL, or the big leagues? It would make a mockery of the regular season by impacting other club's efforts of getting to the postseason. Knowing a particular club will not be permitted to play postseason ball incentivizes other clubs to alter their efforts at winning games against said team, in this case the Astros, because regardless of the outcome of the games against them, the 'Stros go home in October. Maybe if we don't try so hard in a given game and lose to them, it aids another, weaker, team to qualify for postseason play, ensuring a given team plays a weaker opponent in October. Nope! Not a workable solution.

  12. #437

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by armstrong View Post
    I'm just going to vent.

    Shame on Lunhow and Hinch. Shame on the Houston Astros.

    They get to keep their 2017 WS but it will forever be tainted.

    Lunhow, Hinch and all the rest will live on in infamy. Everything they have accomplished in their careers will be forgotten and only this will be remembered. They are this century's Black Sox.

    Shame on everyone involved!

    The verdict on the 2018 Bosox awaits. If it's as bad as we think it is, it's a systemic problem that goes to the very core of the way the game's played today. Whatever the commissioner decides and whomever gets suspended, fired, disgraced, it ain't gonna be pretty. IMO, it's another big black eye for the game. Now, every time a guy hits a pitch way off the plate 450 over the fence, we're all gonna wonder was that hitter tipped illegally? I've thought Gurriel's HR off of Chad Green in game 6 of this year's ALCS was really suspicious from the git go. Had no idea how Gurriel caught up to that pitch that was so high and inside (w/serious heat & movement) unless he knew both what was coming and where the intended location was. Even Altuve's game/series winning dinger off Chapman now looks somewhat, though not as convincingly, suspicious. It was a hittable pitch, granted, breaking over the heart of the plate, BUT Altuve never flinched. If you're facing a guy like Chapman, you can't presume he's not going to throw 100mph (ok, 99mph) heat your way, and if he does, you had better be ready for it. Altuve was all over that slider/breaking ball. Not a moment's hesitation. How can this commissioner say w/a straight face that the Astros were entirely clean in 2019 when they're now proven cheaters in both 2017/2018? Unless the league "investigators" really get to the bottom of this thing with ALL CLUBS in the game, and now w/legal gambling to boot, it's a cancer that potentially could destroy the game's reputation for decades to come.

  13. #438
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    They should have to change their name to the Houston Asterisks
    This is an excellent post.

  14. #439

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    My dad always told me "your character is how you act when you think no one is looking". C'mon, these players needed someone to tell them not do it even though they felt it was crossing lines? Ay yie yie.
    I agree, but how many guys got away w/being juicers w/nary a word from their peers and fellow players? On the one hand, you're not a snitch; on the other, you're complicit and knowingly abetting cheaters and hurting other players who tried to play the game clean. How many players today are "secretly" taking HGH and able to mask it somehow? How many clubs were using technology to cheat in 2017-19 and their only saving grace is they weren't as good at doing it as the Astros and Bosox were? Like an onion, the more layers you peel back, the more potentially disturbing stuff you find underneath, and like peeling onions, it brings a measure of moisture to me eyes...

  15. #440
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by H.Kokubo View Post
    Yeah, I agree and while the Astros certainly cheated and by no means I'm giving them a pass in 2017, Yankees scored a grand total of 3 runs in 4 games...that is not due to the Astros stealing signs.

    Game 1: Lost 2-1. Was 2-0 Astros until the top of the 9th when the Yankees got one run off Giles, but not enough.
    Game 2: Lost 2-1. Verlander threw a 1-run CG and the Astros walk off on bottom of the 9th off Chapman, but even if the Yankees held on and went 1-1 into extra innings, chances are they are likely to have been walked off eventually with who was left in the bullpen.
    Game 6: Lost 7-1. Bottom of the 5th when Severino walked three batters (walk, walk, RBI double, walk, 2-run single) was the bigger damage IMO, and even if they somehow don't give up a run there, bottom of the 8th 4 runs off the good part of the bullpen made it a loss regardless.
    Game 7: Lost 4-0. Didn't score even a run, and won't have won regardless of how many the Astros scored.

    If anything, in this case I think the Dodgers have a more legit reason to be fuming than the Yankees IMO.
    Hang on... the Astros won two 2-1 games and were cheating - it's not all that hard to imagine those outcomes being different. And that's not even thinking about things like the Yankees pitchers potentially needing to throw more pitches to get guys out, or Severino being affected by not being able to get guys out with breaking stuff... Sure, the Yankees didn't hit, but we don't know what the Astros would have done if they were playing fair.

  16. #441
    First Name: Keninovich hardrain's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    I was SO hoping Altuve would go down -- but anyway, on to Cora!
    "Jerry, It's Frank Costanza. Mr. Steinbrenner is here. George is dead. Call me back."

  17. #442
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    One interesting thing is that back before the scandal was exposed, Darvish spent a lot time to study his WS game 7 performance and concluded in his YouTube channel that he found nothing about tipping his pitches like the Astros claimed. It's at Dodgers stadium but it makes me wonder if the Astros also cheat in away game.

  18. #443
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by YFIB View Post
    Hang on... the Astros won two 2-1 games and were cheating - it's not all that hard to imagine those outcomes being different. And that's not even thinking about things like the Yankees pitchers potentially needing to throw more pitches to get guys out, or Severino being affected by not being able to get guys out with breaking stuff... Sure, the Yankees didn't hit, but we don't know what the Astros would have done if they were playing fair.
    Agreed. In addition, Trevor Bauer firmly believes the Astros haven't been playing fair in regards to their pitcher's spin rate increases. I doubt we'll get anything further on that from MLB, as pine tar seems to be this unspoken thing pitchers are allowed to cheat with. However, I really hope the Yankees did their due diligence in regards to Cole prior to signing.
    Calmer than you are

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  19. #444
    Slow in, Fast out ThePinStripes's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    I wonder how much it cost Yu in free agency
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  20. #445
    Slow in, Fast out ThePinStripes's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Agreed. In addition, Trevor Bauer firmly believes the Astros haven't been playing fair in regards to their pitcher's spin rate increases. I doubt we'll get anything further on that from MLB, as pine tar seems to be this unspoken thing pitchers are allowed to cheat with. However, I really hope the Yankees did their due diligence in regards to Cole prior to signing.
    This is also a huge concern of mine. Now that we know they cheated on offense, maybe their "too good to be true" pitching is too good to be true.
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  21. #446
    NYYF Legend

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    I wonder how much it cost Yu in free agency
    Kershaw legacy is also hugely impacted.

  22. #447

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    imagine suspending the GM and Manager for something the MLB admittedly was "player driven"

    In the end, none of the players involved nor the houston organization was punished to the extent it should been. but at least baseball has found couple of easy scapegoats

  23. #448
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    As strong as the punishments are, one livid GM I spoke to said no punishment will undo the damage done: Other teams might have advanced, meaning lost bonus money; pitchers were lit up and will now take those numbers to arbitration and free agency.
    https://twitter.com/TJQuinnESPN/stat...875103243?s=19

  24. #449
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Well, MLB did the MLBPA a huge favor by not just issuing a blanket 50 game suspension for the players who played on the 2017 Astros. Make them fight the evidence in court. Court of opinion, as you've noted, would not bode well for the players.

    I wanted a 50 game players suspension along with lifetime ban for Luhnow but nice to see the owner fire both Hinch and Luhnow. (This doesn't look good for Cora and I hope to see Cora get suspended and fired like Hinch).

    Lastly, I am glad Hinch is gone because not only this cheating but I still feel HOU doctors the ball (spin rate) too.

  25. #450

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by bucky View Post
    I wanted a 50 game players suspension along with lifetime ban for Luhnow but nice to see the owner fire both Hinch and Luhnow. (This doesn't look good for Cora and I hope to see Cora get suspended and fired like Hinch).

    Lastly, I am glad Hinch is gone because not only this cheating but I still feel HOU doctors the ball (spin rate) too.
    Cole?
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