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  1. #101
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNick View Post
    What did the Cards exec get for "hacking" the Astros internal database. So, there precedent for extreme punishment.


    The punishment has to be severe. fines and draft picks/international spending doesnt cut it. Houston has profited way more than they would be fined. MLB has to make a clear statement, this will not be tolerated.
    It'd be one thing if a team like the Orioles did it to avoid losing 115 games, but the Astros, as has been noted here or elsewhere, were doing it so they could pound teams into a Bolivian. Players' careers may have been altered or ended because of a rag-tag bunch of loosey-goosey blue chip prospects gamed the system to bash their way to a World Series championship.

    I'm now calling for the head of Jose Alfredo Garcia Altuve.
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  2. #102
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    The point I was addressing - and, I think, YT as well - was that there need to be massive consequences, or there will be a massive hit to the sport's credibility. I just donít see it. They canít let this go, but they donít have to suspend everybody for a year. Overkill wonít help.
    Not everybody, of course, but as long as we're bringing up the 1951 Giants, Leo Durocher once got a year suspension more or less because he and George Raft rigged a craps game. I'd have no problem parking Hinch for a year or more.
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  3. #103
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNick View Post
    What did the Cards exec get for "hacking" the Astros internal database. So, there precedent for extreme punishment.


    The punishment has to be severe. fines and draft picks/international spending doesnt cut it. Houston has profited way more than they would be fined. MLB has to make a clear statement, this will not be tolerated.
    The St Louis Cardinals were stripped of their top two picks in this yearís amateur draft Monday and ordered to give them to Houston along with $2m as compensation for hacking the Astrosí email system and scouting database, the final step in an unusual case of cybercrime involving two Major League Baseball teams.

    So it would seem draft picks and money is the answer.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  4. #104
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    So it would seem draft picks and money is the answer.
    That's not a deterrent to players who might be playing for a better contract.
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

  5. #105
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    So it would seem draft picks and money is the answer.
    You mean draft picks, money, and a lifetime MLB ban, right? I doubt anyone is getting banned for life here, but suspensions seem very possible.

  6. #106
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    It's possible executives and maybe even managers (though I think that's a stretch) but suggesting a player be suspended or claw back playoff shares over reaches the CBA by a wide margin.
    It may overreach the CBA; I'm not intimately familiar with the relevant language. Just suggesting what I think the appropriate degree of punishment is. I absolutely think that a manager that directly or indirectly permits this type of cheating should be subject to a full season ban. Unless that is expressly prohibited by the CBA I'm not sure why you think that is looney. Also I think if players knew that they were not only risking the integrity of the game but also would get hit in the wallet if caught cheating to this degree it would act as a strong deterrent in the future.

  7. #107

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    It may overreach the CBA; I'm not intimately familiar with the relevant language. Just suggesting what I think the appropriate degree of punishment is. I absolutely think that a manager that directly or indirectly permits this type of cheating should be subject to a full season ban. Unless that is expressly prohibited by the CBA I'm not sure why you think that is looney. Also I think if players knew that they were not only risking the integrity of the game but also would get hit in the wallet if caught cheating to this degree it would act as a strong deterrent in the future.
    The highest ranking person who gave the OK to this operation should be banned for life. They rigged the freaking world series. That means the manager should be banned for life, unless he completely cooperates with the investigation and snitches on the GM (if the GM knew).

    The players also need to be suspended. I think the equivalent of a PED failure is sufficient for everyone who benefited from the system, but they can't be allowed to go unpunished. "Following orders" is not a valid defense for cheating. Otherwise what's the point of ever doing the right thing? The advantage of knowing what pitch is coming is basically the same as being on steroids.

  8. #108
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    I am seeing zero mention of this scandal in the main stream press, so MLB's PR people have been pretty good about suppressing the story. May cover it up with a "everybody steals signals" meme. Not optimistic that any of the really bad culprits will suffer much.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubeFmHEVzQ0

  9. #109
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    I have a feeling the punishment(s) will be light. No where near what people here want. A slap on the hand.

    Sadly a terrible job by MLB. I think they will drag their feet and announce the weak penalty around the holidays when no one is paying attention.


    (look how long we've been waiting for info/punishment for Domingo German)


    Sigh.
    There's a sinister plot a brewin'

  10. #110
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by billyhoyle View Post
    The highest ranking person who gave the OK to this operation should be banned for life. They rigged the freaking world series. That means the manager should be banned for life, unless he completely cooperates with the investigation and snitches on the GM (if the GM knew).

    The players also need to be suspended. I think the equivalent of a PED failure is sufficient for everyone who benefited from the system, but they can't be allowed to go unpunished. "Following orders" is not a valid defense for cheating. Otherwise what's the point of ever doing the right thing? The advantage of knowing what pitch is coming is basically the same as being on steroids.
    I'd love to see way harsher penalties for brazen cheating. But I can't see lifetime bans in this situation. Hopefully MLB creates some serious punishment (manager suspension for a year would be serious IMHO) and also sets the tone that future infractions by any team/player will result in more severe penalties. Also, there's now way they're going to suspend the majority of a team. You can argue they should, but it's not going to happen. My preference would have been clawing back the playoff shares that these players earned from postseasons where cheating can be proven. Again, not sure if the CBA permits it but that seems like an ideal way to penalize players that contributed to the scheme, along with select suspensions without pay in 2020.

  11. #111
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY View Post
    I have a feeling the punishment(s) will be light. No where near what people here want. A slap on the hand.

    Sadly a terrible job by MLB. I think they will drag their feet and announce the weak penalty around the holidays when no one is paying attention.


    (look how long we've been waiting for info/punishment for Domingo German)


    Sigh.
    Investigation is "approaching final steps": https://nypost.com/2019/11/08/mlb-na...ecision-close/

  12. #112
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Leave it to the Mets to make a good hire for manager, only to have it blow up in their faces within two weeks.


    https://nypost.com/2019/11/16/what-m...aling-scandal/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubeFmHEVzQ0

  13. #113
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    I don't know if this was posted but this is the video jomboy did on sign stealing

    ?? doctor the ball but that's me.

    https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/20...-osuna-taubman

  14. #114
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    It may overreach the CBA; I'm not intimately familiar with the relevant language. Just suggesting what I think the appropriate degree of punishment is. I absolutely think that a manager that directly or indirectly permits this type of cheating should be subject to a full season ban. Unless that is expressly prohibited by the CBA I'm not sure why you think that is looney. Also I think if players knew that they were not only risking the integrity of the game but also would get hit in the wallet if caught cheating to this degree it would act as a strong deterrent in the future.
    Ok, itís fair to say you and I have wildly different views on what adequate punishment should be.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Ok, itís fair to say you and I have wildly different views on what adequate punishment should be.
    Iím with you, YT. I donít think a harsh deterrent is really necessary; this isnít something that has or is likely to spread through the game. I donít think it was a system designed or carried out by players, because it has too many moving parts and involves too many systems. The players took advantage of info that was given to them, and Iíd kind of expect them to do that. A slap on the wrist for players, along with more serious consequences for the team and whomever was directly responsible would be OK with me.

  16. #116
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I’m with you, YT. I don’t think a harsh deterrent is really necessary; this isn’t something that has or is likely to spread through the game. I don’t think it was a system designed or carried out by players, because it has too many moving parts and involves too many systems. The players took advantage of info that was given to them, and I’d kind of expect them to do that. A slap on the wrist for players, along with more serious consequences for the team and whomever was directly responsible would be OK with me.
    What a strange hill.

    The Astros proved to everybody in the sport just how successful they can be through cheating and subversion. Now the sport needs to show the rest of the players and organizations in the league how badly they'll be punished should it happen again. In other words, the punishment needs to fit the crime.
    Last edited by ojo; 11-16-19 at 10:21 PM.
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  17. #117
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    What a strange hill.
    Agreed, this is bizarre take to me.

    This wasn't information that the players could feign ignorance over regarding it's source; there's no out here for them. It was real time pitch information communicated in the 5 second window between the catcher putting down the sign and the pitch being delivered. Every hitter 100% knew it was illegal and cheating.

    It's like knowingly receiving stolen goods to me. Sure, the ring leader gets the most punishment, but the people who traffic in the items don't get off the hook because they didn't plan the heist or execute the theft.

    The players are directly responsible for the illegal information affecting the outcome of professional baseball games, and they all actively chose to proceed knowing full well how nefarious and corrupt the whole process to get it was.
    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  18. #118

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    Agreed, this is bizarre take to me.

    This wasn't information that the players could feign ignorance over regarding it's source; there's no out here for them. It was real time pitch information communicated in the 5 second window between the catcher putting down the sign and the pitch being delivered. Every hitter 100% knew it was illegal and cheating.

    It's like knowingly receiving stolen goods to me. Sure, the ring leader gets the most punishment, but the people who traffic in the items don't get off the hook because they didn't plan the heist or execute the theft.

    The players are directly responsible for the illegal information affecting the outcome of professional baseball games, and they all actively chose to proceed knowing full well how nefarious and corrupt the whole process to get it was.
    Agree 1000%.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  19. #119

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    Agreed, this is bizarre take to me.

    This wasn't information that the players could feign ignorance over regarding it's source; there's no out here for them. It was real time pitch information communicated in the 5 second window between the catcher putting down the sign and the pitch being delivered. Every hitter 100% knew it was illegal and cheating.

    It's like knowingly receiving stolen goods to me. Sure, the ring leader gets the most punishment, but the people who traffic in the items don't get off the hook because they didn't plan the heist or execute the theft.

    The players are directly responsible for the illegal information affecting the outcome of professional baseball games, and they all actively chose to proceed knowing full well how nefarious and corrupt the whole process to get it was.
    I agree fully with everything you said. However, I believe the penalties will be directed at the organization and management. IMO the players will receive minimal, if any punishment though I hope I am wrong.
    "It is almost impossible to remember how tragic a place the world is when one is playing golf." -Robert Wilson Lynd



  20. #120

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    This was probably already mentioned but did Aaron Judge lose an MVP award because of this?

  21. #121
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Ok, itís fair to say you and I have wildly different views on what adequate punishment should be.
    What is adequate punishment in your view for wide-spread illegal use of technology that likely contributed to a World Series championship, several deep playoff runs against disadvantaged teams, impacts to players trying to make it in this sport on a level playing field, etc? This isn't a single player in an isolated situation. This should be punished with a quickness. The fact that MLB went soft on the Sox clearly did nothing to deter this type of behavior.

  22. #122
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Hobie View Post
    This was probably already mentioned but did Aaron Judge lose an MVP award because of this?
    Potentially. Depends on how much Altuve benefited from illegal sign stealing in '17.

  23. #123
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation



    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  24. #124
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    This is truly a bizarre situation. And the flat-out arrogance to ask career scouts to get involved (who would undoubtedly keep a paper trail should MLB investigators come knocking when it all blows up).
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

  25. #125
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    If they ask who was our star, give them 25 names, and if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees.

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