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  1. #1051
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    ojo's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by JLJ81 View Post
    Paywall’d. What’s this evidence implicating Boston?
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

  2. #1052

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    This site sucks, so don’t feel too badly.

    The article implies Pedro and Ortiz (both sharing the same sentiment that Fiers is a terrible teammate and overall terrible human being) that they are perhaps dog whistling to current and former Sox to stonewall any investigation.
    Isnt that funny how that works? Pedro and Ortiz, the 2 most vocal about calling out Fiers, connected to the Red Sox.
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  3. #1053

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Paywall’d. What’s this evidence implicating Boston?
    Don't know...

    I posted it hoping someone here has it.

  4. #1054
    I.P. Standing Krall's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Astros/comm...m_medium=web2x

    Harold Reynolds debunking the buzzer?

  5. #1055
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Krall View Post
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Astros/comm...m_medium=web2x

    Harold Reynolds debunking the buzzer?
    I said something similar a while back:
    http://www.nyyfansforum.com/showthre...02#post8797002

    It made total baseball sense for Altuve to sit slider there, but the jersey thing is still weird.
    Calmer than you are

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  6. #1056
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by JLJ81 View Post
    I'm not sure why everyone is twisting themselves in pretzel knots trying to determine if/how much Altuve benefited individually from the system. I honestly don't see how that's even relevant. He's a leader on that team and in that clubhouse. Even if he specifically told his teammates he wanted no individual part of that scheme (which I don't find believable, but whatevs) he's still a silent participant in what is likely the second most egregious cheating scandal in the history of the sport. He's no saint.

  7. #1057
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    I said something similar a while back:
    http://www.nyyfansforum.com/showthre...02#post8797002

    It made total baseball sense for Altuve to sit slider there, but the jersey thing is still weird.
    Both can be true. It was painfully obvious that Chapman couldn't locate his fastball - he was missing by a country mile. And it's also painfully true that that particular slider was a hanger, about as bad a pitch as he could have made.

    Both those things could be true, but that means nothing in terms of proving whether Altuve cheated in general or in that at bat. And again, this particularl AB is super interesting because of the circumstances (walk off HR to get to WS) and the oddity of him clutching his jersey, but at the end of the day Altuve is guilty of being a silent participant in a pervasive cheating scheme.

  8. #1058

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'm not sure why everyone is twisting themselves in pretzel knots trying to determine if/how much Altuve benefited individually from the system. I honestly don't see how that's even relevant. He's a leader on that team and in that clubhouse. Even if he specifically told his teammates he wanted no individual part of that scheme (which I don't find believable, but whatevs) he's still a silent participant in what is likely the second most egregious cheating scandal in the history of the sport. He's no saint.
    Wasnt Jeter a silent participant in the steroid scandal then? Just playing devils advocate.
    Derek Jeter - Mariano Rivera - Bernie Williams - Don Mattingly
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  9. #1059

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Both can be true. It was painfully obvious that Chapman couldn't locate his fastball - he was missing by a country mile. And it's also painfully true that that particular slider was a hanger, about as bad a pitch as he could have made.

    Both those things could be true, but that means nothing in terms of proving whether Altuve cheated in general or in that at bat. And again, this particularl AB is super interesting because of the circumstances (walk off HR to get to WS) and the oddity of him clutching his jersey, but at the end of the day Altuve is guilty of being a silent participant in a pervasive cheating scheme.
    Did he ever answer why he wore a an undershirt most the game, then after what appeared to be his last AB it was removed, only to go back on before his real final AB?
    Derek Jeter - Mariano Rivera - Bernie Williams - Don Mattingly
    My Core Four Ive Seen in my Lifetime

  10. #1060
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Krall View Post
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Astros/comm...m_medium=web2x

    Harold Reynolds debunking the buzzer?
    I don't disagree with the logic from Reynolds, but I really don't value his opinion at all. Also, he called Altuve the MVP that season. Wrong as usual.

  11. #1061
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    Wasnt Jeter a silent participant in the steroid scandal then? Just playing devils advocate.
    Um, What?
    http://vimel.ru/e6748

  12. #1062

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    Um, What?
    He said Altuve was a silent participant in the Astros cheating scheme even if he didnt cheat himself. Just because he was a teammate not saying anything.

    Jeter played with roiders. So does that make him guilty?

    For what it's worth I dont believe Altuve was free of cheating.
    Derek Jeter - Mariano Rivera - Bernie Williams - Don Mattingly
    My Core Four Ive Seen in my Lifetime

  13. #1063
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    Wasnt Jeter a silent participant in the steroid scandal then? Just playing devils advocate.
    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    He said Altuve was a silent participant in the Astros cheating scheme even if he didnt cheat himself. Just because he was a teammate not saying anything.

    Jeter played with roiders. So does that make him guilty?

    For what it's worth I dont believe Altuve was free of cheating.
    I think there's a massive difference between an individual cheating, presumably in private, in a manner in which MLB has methods and test to detect that isolated bad behavior, when compared to the pervasive collusion taking place in Altuve's clubhouse.

    I don't know for sure Jeter witnessed A-Rod taking steroids, but we know for sure that the best case scenario for Altuve is he sat idly by while his front office and other personnel colluded with presumably that entire offense to use technology to steal and communicate signs to hitters in real time. Even if Jeter saw A-Rod eating bags of steroid gummies, it's really a false equivalency.

  14. #1064
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I'm not sure why everyone is twisting themselves in pretzel knots trying to determine if/how much Altuve benefited individually from the system. I honestly don't see how that's even relevant. He's a leader on that team and in that clubhouse. Even if he specifically told his teammates he wanted no individual part of that scheme (which I don't find believable, but whatevs) he's still a silent participant in what is likely the second most egregious cheating scandal in the history of the sport. He's no saint.
    Furthermore, he was unquestionably a beneficiary of the cheating scheme he knew was going on and did nothing to stop: pitchers were more physically worn down when they faced him because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do, pitchers were more mentally stressed when they faced him because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do, relievers were brought in sooner because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do, his personal stats were inflated both directly (R/RBI) and indirectly (higher rate stats due to the effects mentioned earlier) because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do, and his team won more games and thus boosted his status as an MVP candidate because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do.

    None of this stuff was an indirect benefit - Altuve personally reaped all of it via his participation in the scheme by purposefully remaining silent and letting it be executed at a monumental level.
    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  15. #1065

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I think there's a massive difference between an individual cheating, presumably in private, in a manner in which MLB has methods and test to detect that isolated bad behavior, when compared to the pervasive collusion taking place in Altuve's clubhouse.

    I don't know for sure Jeter witnessed A-Rod taking steroids, but we know for sure that the best case scenario for Altuve is he sat idly by while his front office and other personnel colluded with presumably that entire offense to use technology to steal and communicate signs to hitters in real time. Even if Jeter saw A-Rod eating bags of steroid gummies, it's really a false equivalency.
    Maybe. Arod certainly wasnt the only one juicing though. So it wasnt just individual. In fact, Lou Merloni has said that in the Red Sox locker room they taught you how to properly use steroids. So if that was going on, are the players who werent using on those Red Sox teams guilty of the same thing you are accusing Altuve of? Guilty by association even if they werent cheating themselves? Not blowing the whistle?

    Again, I want to say I do think Altuve cheated to some degree. I dont think there is any question. Correa said he didnt, but if he didnt, why was the trash can still being banged for him at times? Makes no sense.

    And if Altuves could be guilty by being silent, then could Cole be guilty too? He certainly benefited in 2018-2019.
    Derek Jeter - Mariano Rivera - Bernie Williams - Don Mattingly
    My Core Four Ive Seen in my Lifetime

  16. #1066

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    Maybe. Arod certainly wasnt the only one juicing though. So it wasnt just individual. In fact, Lou Merloni has said that in the Red Sox locker room they taught you how to properly use steroids. So if that was going on, are the players who werent using on those Red Sox teams guilty of the same thing you are accusing Altuve of? Guilty by association even if they werent cheating themselves? Not blowing the whistle?
    You are really, really reaching here, and you're all over the place.

    If you want to talk about the Red Sox clubhouse and Merloni's (quite plausible) assertion that the organization educated players on how best to cheat, that is a topic worth discussing as a possible comp to the current Astros scandal. But what does that have to do with Derek Jeter?

    I get it, you specifically named Jeter to get a reaction. I resisted the temptation when I saw your first post, but now that you're blurring the lines and implying that the Yankees may have had an organization-wide steroid plan, in which Jeter as team captain would have been complicit, I can't let it slide. There is absolutely no basis for your speculation.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  17. #1067
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    Furthermore, he was unquestionably a beneficiary of the cheating scheme he knew was going on and did nothing to stop: pitchers were more physically worn down when they faced him because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do, pitchers were more mentally stressed when they faced him because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do, relievers were brought in sooner because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do, his personal stats were inflated both directly (R/RBI) and indirectly (higher rate stats due to the effects mentioned earlier) because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do, and his team won more games and thus boosted his status as an MVP candidate because of the cheating he allowed his teammates to do.

    None of this stuff was an indirect benefit - Altuve personally reaped all of it via his participation in the scheme by purposefully remaining silent and letting it be executed at a monumental level.
    This is an excellent point. It’s also worth noting that the dude who charted every trash can banging per Astro at-bat in 2017 did show some banging for Altuve. It was just less frequently than other players.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  18. #1068
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    Maybe. Arod certainly wasnt the only one juicing though. So it wasnt just individual. In fact, Lou Merloni has said that in the Red Sox locker room they taught you how to properly use steroids. So if that was going on, are the players who werent using on those Red Sox teams guilty of the same thing you are accusing Altuve of? Guilty by association even if they werent cheating themselves? Not blowing the whistle?

    Again, I want to say I do think Altuve cheated to some degree. I dont think there is any question. Correa said he didnt, but if he didnt, why was the trash can still being banged for him at times? Makes no sense.

    And if Altuves could be guilty by being silent, then could Cole be guilty too? He certainly benefited in 2018-2019.
    I know you've said you're playing devil's advocate, but this is the exact type of pretzel knot twisting I'm talking about via false equivalencies.

    You're taking a certain event and equating it to a hypothetical event.

    You're taking a cheating scandal that was pervasive across an offensive unit, that required deep collusion - from the front office all the way down to all the hitters - and equating it to individuals that might have theoretically and independently been injecting/ingesting steroids.

    You're taking a cheating event that happened in secrecy of the clubhouse but in plain view of anyone in it and equating it to something that was likely to be done off premises.

    You're equating the effect of steroids to the effect of knowing the pitch that is coming, which any player will tell you are many degrees of separation apart in terms of self-benefit.

    You're equating a scheme where MLB had no real detection method to one where there was a rigorous testing program to identify rule violations.

    You're taking the steroids scandal, which MLB turned a blind eye towards, and equating it to this scam which MLB had literally just caught this team executing and had issued a direct warning to discontinue.

    You're taking a methodology that gave individual players an edge that (unfortunately) was common on every team's roster, and equating it to a methodology that due to it's use of technology and real-time communication was entirely unique to one roster - which happened to be the roster that won the WS.

    I could go on, but really the point is that no - I don't think Derek Jeter's silence in your made up example is the same as Jose Altuve's silence in this real example - ESPECIALLY with the caveat (which you support) that I believe Altuve directly and indirectly benefited from the system he helped keep secret. His seemingly insincere apologies, denials being issued via teammates, and the pompousness of his partners in crime make this worse by several levels.

    Your question re: Cole is a fair one. Cole wasn't on that 2017 roster, so if you believe MLB's report he's in the clear.

    If you don't believe the cheating stopped after that year however, which I don't, this is still another false equivalency. I really focus my angst on the players that were there leading up to the development of the system, that participated in it directly as players throughout the scandal, that mocked competitors or journalists that asked about the rumored system, and that were leaders of that offensive unit a whole lot differently than the pitching staff.

  19. #1069
    I.P. Standing Krall's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Both can be true. It was painfully obvious that Chapman couldn't locate his fastball - he was missing by a country mile. And it's also painfully true that that particular slider was a hanger, about as bad a pitch as he could have made.

    Both those things could be true, but that means nothing in terms of proving whether Altuve cheated in general or in that at bat. And again, this particularl AB is super interesting because of the circumstances (walk off HR to get to WS) and the oddity of him clutching his jersey, but at the end of the day Altuve is guilty of being a silent participant in a pervasive cheating scheme.
    I’m caught up in what everyone is saying about the buzzer. He’s got no undershirt on in that at bat. Chapman was wild indeed, but I already drank the kool-aid about him running right off the field to change which he didn’t. The clutching his jersey part is weird and just like with ‘roids he’s implied guilty because of that and the now known cheating. The stone wall approach doesn’t help either.

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    I don't disagree with the logic from Reynolds, but I really don't value his opinion at all. Also, he called Altuve the MVP that season. Wrong as usual.
    I had the same opinion while watching it and as a Yankees fan it’s hard to digest, but the facts seem clear at least in that AB.

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    Did he ever answer why he wore a an undershirt most the game, then after what appeared to be his last AB it was removed, only to go back on before his real final AB?
    Don’t think the dude has done anything yet except blame everyone else. I think he even called out Fiers to tell the ‘whole’ truth about who cheated and to what extent to clear his name.

    In his game winning HR AB he had no tee shirt on and for whatever it’s worth you can see part of a lettered tattoo.

  20. #1070
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by Krall View Post
    I’m caught up in what everyone is saying about the buzzer. He’s got no undershirt on in that at bat. Chapman was wild indeed, but I already drank the kool-aid about him running right off the field to change which he didn’t. The clutching his jersey part is weird and just like with ‘roids he’s implied guilty because of that and the now known cheating. The stone wall approach doesn’t help either.
    Yeah, I still call BS on the moving-target excuses for protecting that jersey with every ounce of his being.

    You just hit a walk-off HR to send your team to the WS off of one of the game's best closers. Whichever excuse he wants to use today - that he's shy, that his wife would get mad at him, that he had an incomplete tattoo... THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT AS SOON AS YOU ROUND THIRD BASE AND ARE RUNNING HOME??

  21. #1071
    I.P. Standing Krall's Avatar
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Yeah, I still call BS on the moving-target excuses for protecting that jersey with every ounce of his being.

    You just hit a walk-off HR to send your team to the WS off of one of the game's best closers. Whichever excuse he wants to use today - that he's shy, that his wife would get mad at him, that he had an incomplete tattoo... THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT AS SOON AS YOU ROUND THIRD BASE AND ARE RUNNING HOME??
    I’d feel like King Kong on top of the Empire State Building! There’d be way to much adrenaline in my veins to to think about protecting my jersey unless I was hiding something.

  22. #1072
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    First spring training game today. Wondering if someone gets drilled.
    Quote Originally Posted by 4bronxbombers
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    <--- The Ryan emoticon.

  23. #1073

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    You are really, really reaching here, and you're all over the place.

    If you want to talk about the Red Sox clubhouse and Merloni's (quite plausible) assertion that the organization educated players on how best to cheat, that is a topic worth discussing as a possible comp to the current Astros scandal. But what does that have to do with Derek Jeter?

    I get it, you specifically named Jeter to get a reaction. I resisted the temptation when I saw your first post, but now that you're blurring the lines and implying that the Yankees may have had an organization-wide steroid plan, in which Jeter as team captain would have been complicit, I can't let it slide. There is absolutely no basis for your speculation.
    My point being that if Altuve didnt do anything wrong, and was only part of the team that a few did do something wrong, its the same as the steroid era where some did and some didnt. I named Jeter as one who didnt, but played with players who did, and he had to have known about it. I used the Lou Merloni example as the team institutionalizing the steroid use while also having some on the team NOT using.

    All examples. Some players cheated, some didnt, on the same teams. They all werent guilty.
    Derek Jeter - Mariano Rivera - Bernie Williams - Don Mattingly
    My Core Four Ive Seen in my Lifetime

  24. #1074

    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I know you've said you're playing devil's advocate, but this is the exact type of pretzel knot twisting I'm talking about via false equivalencies.

    You're taking a certain event and equating it to a hypothetical event.

    You're taking a cheating scandal that was pervasive across an offensive unit, that required deep collusion - from the front office all the way down to all the hitters - and equating it to individuals that might have theoretically and independently been injecting/ingesting steroids.

    You're taking a cheating event that happened in secrecy of the clubhouse but in plain view of anyone in it and equating it to something that was likely to be done off premises.

    You're equating the effect of steroids to the effect of knowing the pitch that is coming, which any player will tell you are many degrees of separation apart in terms of self-benefit.

    You're equating a scheme where MLB had no real detection method to one where there was a rigorous testing program to identify rule violations.

    You're taking the steroids scandal, which MLB turned a blind eye towards, and equating it to this scam which MLB had literally just caught this team executing and had issued a direct warning to discontinue.

    You're taking a methodology that gave individual players an edge that (unfortunately) was common on every team's roster, and equating it to a methodology that due to it's use of technology and real-time communication was entirely unique to one roster - which happened to be the roster that won the WS.

    I could go on, but really the point is that no - I don't think Derek Jeter's silence in your made up example is the same as Jose Altuve's silence in this real example - ESPECIALLY with the caveat (which you support) that I believe Altuve directly and indirectly benefited from the system he helped keep secret. His seemingly insincere apologies, denials being issued via teammates, and the pompousness of his partners in crime make this worse by several levels.

    Your question re: Cole is a fair one. Cole wasn't on that 2017 roster, so if you believe MLB's report he's in the clear.

    If you don't believe the cheating stopped after that year however, which I don't, this is still another false equivalency. I really focus my angst on the players that were there leading up to the development of the system, that participated in it directly as players throughout the scandal, that mocked competitors or journalists that asked about the rumored system, and that were leaders of that offensive unit a whole lot differently than the pitching staff.
    How is it made up? Jeter played with guys who were juicing no? If Altuve benefitted by cheating then thats a different conversation. If he did not cheat, its in the same cloud. Guilty by being quiet and befitting from it.

    And yes I used Jeter since he is one of our all time greats. And he played with known cheaters.
    Derek Jeter - Mariano Rivera - Bernie Williams - Don Mattingly
    My Core Four Ive Seen in my Lifetime

  25. #1075
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    Re: Astros cheating investigation

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Yeah, I still call BS on the moving-target excuses for protecting that jersey with every ounce of his being.

    You just hit a walk-off HR to send your team to the WS off of one of the game's best closers. Whichever excuse he wants to use today - that he's shy, that his wife would get mad at him, that he had an incomplete tattoo... THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT AS SOON AS YOU ROUND THIRD BASE AND ARE RUNNING HOME??


    Gary Sanchez made the quote of the year regarding that sentiment.

    Andy Martino @martinonyc 25m
    Was Altuve wearing a buzzer? Gary Sanchez:
    “I don’t know , but I can tell you if I hit a HR to get my team to the World Series, they can rip off my pants.”
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

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