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  1. #2751
    Slow in, Fast out ThePinStripes's Avatar
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    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Only on this forum could an injury the previous year be a basis to increase trade value and make a player more desirable.

    Just ignore his first two years in the league.
    And his history for two full seasons before the trade.
    and ignore his injury as a risk for future health
    and use it to say his numbers would be higher if he wasn't hurt
    and only look at his one stellar year in the NL East

    and obviously, he's a top 3 pitcher in 2 years.
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  2. #2752

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    Only on this forum could an injury the previous year be a basis to increase trade value and make a player more desirable.

    Just ignore his first two years in the league.
    And his history for two full seasons before the trade.
    and ignore his injury as a risk for future health
    and use it to say his numbers would be higher if he wasn't hurt
    and only look at his one stellar year in the NL East

    and obviously, he's a top 3 pitcher in 2 years.
    Despite all that he would still be a top 3 pitcher on the Yankees and you know it. Again they werenít willing to trade for him for the 4 or 5 spot of their rotation .

  3. #2753
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    Actually his 5 years at Pitts showed that it was obvious that he would likely be the #1 starter on the yanks rotation , and at worst a #2 starter in that rotation only behind serevino . And to top it all off it would have kept him from Houston . That alone would have made it worth , Frazier, Sheffield and Andķjar imo.
    Thank you for saving me some typing. It's one thing to say the Yankees may have had concerns about his elbow, but it's ridiculous to suggest that a former #1 overall pick who posted a 147 ERA+ his third year in the league would have been a JAG with the Yankees.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  4. #2754

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    Thank you for saving me some typing. It's one thing to say the Yankees may have had concerns about his elbow, but it's ridiculous to suggest that a former #1 overall pick who posted a 147 ERA+ his third year in the league would have been a JAG with the Yankees.
    Well at that time they weren’t willing to part with Frazier for a #4 or 5 starter that’s for sure. And they were willing to do so for cole. At the very worst , at that time cole was a better option than gray or Paxton.

  5. #2755
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    apalradio's Avatar
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    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NYYfan4life90 View Post
    Hindsight is 20-20. If you thought Cole would turn into this type of pitcher (cheating or not by the Astros), then you're likely lying to yourself. He only had one great season in Pittsburgh. For all we knew, it could have been a fluke.

    Also, getting a player just to avoid him going elsewhere is dumb.

    I would have traded Frazier, Sheffield and Andujar for an established #1 pitcher. Cole wasn't that at the time.
    The guy was drafted in the first round twice before he finally signed. I'm not sure anyone thinking he'd turn into the type of pitcher he has is lying to themselves. He seems to have fulfilled expectations. But I do agree with you on that second point.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  6. #2756
    Slow in, Fast out ThePinStripes's Avatar
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    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    Thank you for saving me some typing. It's one thing to say the Yankees may have had concerns about his elbow, but it's ridiculous to suggest that a former #1 overall pick who posted a 147 ERA+ his third year in the league would have been a JAG with the Yankees.
    Sure, that seems reasonable, as long as you (once again) ignore 4 other season of work and an injury.
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  7. #2757

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    The guy was drafted in the first round twice before he finally signed. I'm not sure anyone thinking he'd turn into the type of pitcher he has is lying to themselves. He seems to have fulfilled expectations. But I do agree with you on that second point.
    The yanks starting rotation at the time of the trade was serevino, Tanaka, cc, gray and Monty.

    Now looking at the 5 years cole had in pittsburg , tell me how one could come to the conclusion that He wouldn’t have been at the top of that rotation by now?

  8. #2758

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    how is pitching over 300 innings in those last 2 years and his high k/9 avg show a declining starter ?
    Well either his numbers were declining due to injury or not! I was responding to the claim that they were. This was portrayed as a positive. We supposedly should have been happier about his declining numbers because of how much he was battling injury. It's an argument that's hard to swallow.

  9. #2759

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    Only on this forum could an injury the previous year be a basis to increase trade value and make a player more desirable.

    Just ignore his first two years in the league.
    And his history for two full seasons before the trade.
    and ignore his injury as a risk for future health
    and use it to say his numbers would be higher if he wasn't hurt
    and only look at his one stellar year in the NL East

    and obviously, he's a top 3 pitcher in 2 years.
    OK at least someone got my point

  10. #2760

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    The yanks starting rotation at the time of the trade was serevino, Tanaka, cc, gray and Monty.

    Now looking at the 5 years cole had in pittsburg , tell me how one could come to the conclusion that He wouldn’t have been at the top of that rotation by now?
    You can't take the most optimistic projection for Cole without doing so for the other pitchers though. All except Monty have been American League all-stars who have received Cy Young Award votes.

  11. #2761

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonn1997 View Post
    You can't take the most optimistic projection for Cole without doing so for the other pitchers though. All except Monty have been American League all-stars who have received Cy Young Award votes.
    Not in the last two seasons. I was talking about from the time the trade was made not from the time before that. And no way in hell do you put cc, gray and Monty ahead of cole at that time , that is just nuts . And in regards to Tanaka , even the most optimistic projections from him didn’t have him being better than cole at that time and you know that .

  12. #2762
    Slow in, Fast out ThePinStripes's Avatar
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    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    The yanks starting rotation at the time of the trade was serevino, Tanaka, cc, gray and Monty.

    Now looking at the 5 years cole had in pittsburg , tell me how one could come to the conclusion that He wouldnít have been at the top of that rotation by now?
    Gray was a very good pitcher. He was actually a good pitcher this year. It's that the Yankees pitching program sucks.

    Anyway, there's no doubt they needed to get a pitcher. That's different from it being obvious that Cole as going to be a top 3 pitcher in baseball.
    A fool and his money can throw one heck of a party!

  13. #2763

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePinStripes View Post
    Gray was a very good pitcher. He was actually a good pitcher this year. It's that the Yankees pitching program sucks.

    Anyway, there's no doubt they needed to get a pitcher. That's different from it being obvious that Cole as going to be a top 3 pitcher in baseball.
    I never said cole was a top 3 baseball, I only said it was obvious that he had shown the potential to be as good as he has been . And that it was known at that time he could easily be the #1 starter on the Yankees at that time and thus worth trading Sheffield, Andķjar and Frazier for.

  14. #2764
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    People forget that you're not going to get a proven ace with years of control by giving up just an unproven Andujar and a top 20 prospect Frazier at that time.

    You traded Cole for his upside. There is also no point comparing the start of his career and his prime years.

  15. #2765

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    Not in the last two seasons. I was talking about from the time the trade was made not from the time before that. And no way in hell do you put cc, gray and Monty ahead of cole at that time , that is just nuts . And in regards to Tanaka , even the most optimistic projections from him didnít have him being better than cole at that time and you know that .
    Can you post the numbers you have in mind? I do not think any of those for Yankees pitchers were more years removed from their All-Star/Cy Young vote seasons than Cole was (except CC but he had turned things around already and was putting up better American League numbers than Coleís National League numbers).

  16. #2766

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonn1997 View Post
    Can you post the numbers you have in mind? I do not think any of those for Yankees pitchers were more years removed from their All-Star/Cy Young vote seasons than Cole was (except CC but he had turned things around already and was putting up better American League numbers than Cole’s National League numbers).
    Well all the DL stints that cc went through in 18 and this past season tend for to make me think that he hadn’t turned it around . And in 2017 cc pitched only 153 innings while cole pitched over 200. Oh Tanaka pitched to a 4.74 era in 2017 with less than 190 ip, while in 2018 Tanaka pitched to a respectable 3.74 era but less than 160 ip. So yeah I stand by my opinion that cole at the time of the trade would have been in the top of the yanks rotation going into the 2018 season , and at worst only behind serevino .

  17. #2767

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    Well all the DL stints that cc went through in 18 and this past season tend for to make me think that he hadnít turned it around . And in 2017 cc pitched only 153 innings while cole pitched over 200. Oh Tanaka pitched to a 4.74 era in 2017 with less than 190 ip, while in 2018 Tanaka pitched to a respectable 3.74 era but less than 160 ip. So yeah I stand by my opinion that cole at the time of the trade would have been in the top of the yanks rotation going into the 2018 season , and at worst only behind serevino .
    Are we evaluating the players based on ERA or innings pitched? Or just whichever one favors Cole for each comparison?

  18. #2768

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonn1997 View Post
    Are we evaluating the players based on ERA or innings pitched? Or just whichever one favors Cole for each comparison?
    I go by innings pitched, era and and even strike outs. I didnít use win/loss because pittsburg wasnít a good team for most of coleís career there

  19. #2769

    Re: 2019 Postseason Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ratman View Post
    I go by innings pitched, era and and even strike outs. I didn’t use win/loss because pittsburg wasn’t a good team for most of cole’s career there
    OK, if do give weight to ERA, what do you make of the fact that his NL ERA in 2017 (the year just completed), was higher than the AL ERAs of CC, Severino, Montgomery, and Gray?
    (And Tanaka, the one pitcher with a higher ERA looked comparable to Cole in more advanced stats like FIP and xFIP. But we can stick to ERA here, and just place Cole fifth of the sixth pitchers in question in that domain in the most recent completed season.)

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