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  1. #1126
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    That's not the issue, though. Those are people who are not comfortable with ANY woman. It is not a binary choice between 'not any woman' and 'support ALL women.' People (and some of that 48% ARE women) should have the right to say, 'not THAT woman' without being automatically labelled as 'not ANY woman.'

    Personally, I have no problem supporting a woman for President, but I sure had problems with THAT woman, until faced with the alternative of you-know-who. I currently support a woman for President. I do not appreciate the disdain (borrowing an excellent word) ascribed to the 'not THAT woman' adherents.
    Yes, but for many people of Biden's liberal generation, "but not that woman" manages to apply to every woman that comes around. Sheís shrill, unlikeable, timid, ballbusting, overly emotional, icy, too liberal, opportunistic, canít win, or whatever. That was the point.

  2. #1127
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Yes, but for many people of Biden's liberal generation, "but not that woman" manages to apply to every woman that comes around. Sheís shrill, unlikeable, timid, ballbusting, overly emotional, icy, too liberal, opportunistic, canít win, or whatever. That was the point.
    Yeah, well, the 'for many people' part tends to get lost in the memes and tweets. It is a real tendency for HRC supporters to ascribe all her problems to sexism. That is just part of the story, which I won't rehash further. Yes, it is more difficult for a woman. On the other hand, there are a ton of these likable, qualified males around and they have a real hard time distinguishing themselves from the pack. Getting noticed is the first obstacle, and I would argue that being female probably helped both Warren and Harris get as far as they have.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  3. #1128
    RIP Dorothy Seymour Mills Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Yes, but for many people of Biden's liberal generation, "but not that woman" manages to apply to every woman that comes around. Sheís shrill, unlikeable, timid, ballbusting, overly emotional, icy, too liberal, opportunistic, canít win, or whatever. That was the point.
    Exactly. It's used as a way to not acknowledge or even recognize the existence of someone's own sexism.
    Take car. Go to Mum's. Kill Phil - "Sorry." - grab Liz, go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over. How's that for a slice of fried gold?

  4. #1129
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    Yeah, well, the 'for many people' part tends to get lost in the memes and tweets. It is a real tendency for HRC supporters to ascribe all her problems to sexism. That is just part of the story, which I won't rehash further. Yes, it is more difficult for a woman. On the other hand, there are a ton of these likable, qualified males around and they have a real hard time distinguishing themselves from the pack. Getting noticed is the first obstacle, and I would argue that being female probably helped both Warren and Harris get as far as they have.
    I thought this clearly had nothing to do with HRC.

  5. #1130
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Yes, but for many people of Biden's liberal generation, "but not that woman" manages to apply to every woman that comes around. Sheís shrill, unlikeable, timid, ballbusting, overly emotional, icy, too liberal, opportunistic, canít win, or whatever. That was the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I thought this clearly had nothing to do with HRC.
    Agreed with both of these.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  6. #1131
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I thought this clearly had nothing to do with HRC.
    Really? That's where the whole concept emerged. The whole dialogue about her defeat was full of exactly that 'not THAT woman' discussion. All of us who did not support HRC were repeatedly told we were dishonest closet sexists. It is the context from which all of this current debate flows.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  7. #1132
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Yes, but for many people of Biden's liberal generation, "but not that woman" manages to apply to every woman that comes around. Sheís shrill, unlikeable, timid, ballbusting, overly emotional, icy, too liberal, opportunistic, canít win, or whatever. That was the point.
    I guess we'll see if a different woman gets the nomination this time around.
    That said, HRC had baggage beyond being a woman.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  8. #1133
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Exactly. It's used as a way to not acknowledge or even recognize the existence of someone's own sexism.
    It is a WAY. That is no proof that it is universally the case...and that is where the overreach occurs.

    In a way, it's just like the 'articulate' debate. Just because you can demonstate that somewhere someone used a phrase in a specific way coming from a bad place, there is no proof that all usage of the same phrase demontrates the same state of mind.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  9. #1134
    RIP Dorothy Seymour Mills Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    It is a WAY. That is no proof that it is universally the case...and that is where the overreach occurs.

    Who claimed it was universal? But it's common. It's also become a meme. It's use is common on social media. You are just out of touch with modern cultural references.
    Take car. Go to Mum's. Kill Phil - "Sorry." - grab Liz, go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over. How's that for a slice of fried gold?

  10. #1135
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Who claimed it was universal? But it's common. It's also become a meme. It's use is common on social media. You are just out of touch with modern cultural references.
    So, exactly where do you leave room for those who voted against female candidates for reasons of honesty, competence, or other legitimate concerns? What's common? The meme? Or the self-delusion? Are you saying the meme is proof of the self-delusion? The whole 'not that woman' thing on social media is far more common among those who criticize the idea rather than those who espouse it. Or are you not that familiar with modern cultural references? (Really, Tex, that comment was beneath you.)
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  11. #1136

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Yes, but for many people of Biden's liberal generation, "but not that woman" manages to apply to every woman that comes around. Sheís shrill, unlikeable, timid, ballbusting, overly emotional, icy, too liberal, opportunistic, canít win, or whatever. That was the point.
    Bingo.

  12. #1137
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    So, exactly where do you leave room for those who voted against female candidates for reasons of honesty, competence, or other legitimate concerns? What's common? The meme? Or the self-delusion? Are you saying the meme is proof of the self-delusion? The whole 'not that woman' thing on social media is far more common among those who criticize the idea rather than those who espouse it. Or are you not that familiar with modern cultural references? (Really, Tex, that comment was beneath you.)
    Your whole argument is beneath you.

  13. #1138
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Biden will speak as if he takes women candidates (or just women) seriously, but when it comes down to it, he doesnít take women candidates (or just women) seriously.

    If you like, Tim, it speaks to his wokeness, but I donít use that disdainfully.
    Holy crap I'm remembering why for so many years I was an IND.

    Democrats are freaking insufferable.
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

  14. #1139
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Your whole argument is beneath you.
    That is precisely the kind of attitude that may lose this election to Trump. While I am in no danger of voting for Donald, the blissful abilty to pigeonhole those who do not embrace the progressive agenda or candidates as racist, sexist, etc. without any actual proof may prove to lose support for the eventual Democratic candidate. "Deplorables" did not help HRC. Please don't go there again. There are plenty of reasons not to support Joe Biden. I don't support him myself. However, this game of alleging racism and sexism is short-sighted and dangerous. Any winning candidate must attract Biden voters; playing the "ist" game will only hurt the eventual winner, be it Biden or someone else.

    Do not underestimate the power of an incumbent with a strong economy and a loyal 40% base, plus a structural advantage given the EC. Despite your cherished belief that the 'right' candidate will beat Trump, this is an easy election to lose.

    If you don't want to discuss it, fine. I'm done here, too. It's not easy to change minds around here. I'm happy if people just think a little bit about all this.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  15. #1140
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    That is precisely the kind of attitude that may lose this election to Trump. While I am in no danger of voting for Donald, the blissful abilty to pigeonhole those who do not embrace the progressive agenda or candidates as racist, sexist, etc. without any actual proof may prove to lose support for the eventual Democratic candidate. "Deplorables" did not help HRC. Please don't go there again. There are plenty of reasons not to support Joe Biden. I don't support him myself. However, this game of alleging racism and sexism is short-sighted and dangerous. Any winning candidate must attract Biden voters; playing the "ist" game will only hurt the eventual winner, be it Biden or someone else.

    Do not underestimate the power of an incumbent with a strong economy and a loyal 40% base, plus a structural advantage given the EC. Despite your cherished belief that the 'right' candidate will beat Trump, this is an easy election to lose.

    If you don't want to discuss it, fine. I'm done here, too. It's not easy to change minds around here. I'm happy if people just think a little bit about all this.
    Iím fine. I just donít understand why you were arguing against a position no one was taking. And your default position has become, "Or you'll lose the election!"

  16. #1141
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Iím fine. I just donít understand why you were arguing against a position no one was taking. And your default position has become, "Or you'll lose the election!"
    Well, according to PC rules, if I feel offended, that's all that should matter, right?

    Yes, losing to Trump is my biggest concern right now. So that tends to be the reason I challenge things around here. Thanks for noticing.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  17. #1142
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    Well, according to PC rules, if I feel offended, that's all that should matter, right?

    Yes, losing to Trump is my biggest concern right now. So that tends to be the reason I challenge things around here. Thanks for noticing.
    Not my PC rules. I've been very clear and consistent about that.

    should have been more circumspect than to say that the argument was beneath you, at least if I wasn't going to take the time to explain then. It wasn't beneath you morally, it had nothing to do with sexism or HRC or anything else. It was beneath you in the way that matters most to you and me - as argument for its own sake.

    As I said, you were trying to poke holes in an argument no one was making. No one was suggesting that it's always improper to oppose a woman. I'll say "not that woman" to Amy Klobuchar and Marianne Williamson and Tulsi Gabbard and - though I didn't expect this - Kirsten Gillibrand. But the topic came up specifically in terms of Joe Biden's attitude towards women, expressed in a meme that has some truth.

    No, it's not universally applicable. Yes, it was certainly possible to loathe HRC for reasons other than sexism (as you may or may not recall, I loathed her for years, thought I would never vote for her for anything, and finally did so with a complete lack of enthusiasm). I didn't think your position is inherently sexist or anything else. I just thought it was irrelevant and unnecessary. I will always criticize you more harshly for that than merely for being wrong, and I would expect you to do the same for me.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  18. #1143
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Not my PC rules. I've been very clear and consistent about that.

    should have been more circumspect than to say that the argument was beneath you, at least if I wasn't going to take the time to explain then. It wasn't beneath you morally, it had nothing to do with sexism or HRC or anything else. It was beneath you in the way that matters most to you and me - as argument for its own sake.

    As I said, you were trying to poke holes in an argument no one was making. No one was suggesting that it's always improper to oppose a woman. I'll say "not that woman" to Amy Klobuchar and Marianne Williamson and Tulsi Gabbard and - though I didn't expect this - Kirsten Gillibrand. But the topic came up specifically in terms of Joe Biden's attitude towards women, expressed in a meme that has some truth.

    No, it's not universally applicable. Yes, it was certainly possible to loathe HRC for reasons other than sexism (as you may or may not recall, I loathed her for years, thought I would never vote for her for anything, and finally did so with a complete lack of enthusiasm). I didn't think your position is inherently sexist or anything else. I just thought it was irrelevant and unnecessary. I will always criticize you more harshly for that than merely for being wrong, and I would expect you to do the same for me.
    If every time this topic came up, it was phrased as you just did, I wouldn't have an issue.

    That said, I'll agree the Biden meme might have some truth, but what point is it really making? Oh, let's just throw Uncle Joe in the basket as all those other jerks that don't realize they are sexist? Aren't we glad we are woke?

    If that's not it, please enlighten me. Personally, I find that meme unappealing every time I see it. Nothing you have said changes that.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  19. #1144
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    I think Uncle Joe has a way of coming across as less avuncular than patronizing. It comes out particularly in his inability to recognize that his touchy-feels style is no longer a good look - and joking about it instead. He may say he takes women seriously, but he doesnít behave that way.

    Iíll grant that thereís a certain amount of Democratic cannibalism involved, though not as much as Pelosi was showing last week. It was just a snarky tweet that I thought was clever and not untrue.

  20. #1145
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Here's an article by Thomas Friedman in the Times. I often disagree with him, and I would not have said a lot of things they way he said them, but his major concern mirrors the ones I keep repeating on here. Beating Trump has to be Job 1.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/16/o...p_id=697719840

    An excerpt:

    So, I wasn’t surprised to hear so many people expressing fear that the racist, divisive, climate-change-denying, woman-abusing jerk who is our president was going to get re-elected, and was even seeing his poll numbers rise.

    Dear Democrats: This is not complicated! Just nominate a decent, sane person, one committed to reunifying the country and creating more good jobs, a person who can gain the support of the independents, moderate Republicans and suburban women who abandoned Donald Trump in the midterms and thus swung the House of Representatives to the Democrats and could do the same for the presidency. And that candidate can win!

    But please, spare me the revolution! It can wait. Win the presidency, hold the House and narrow the spread in the Senate, and a lot of good things still can be accomplished. “No,” you say, “the left wants a revolution now!” O.K., I’ll give the left a revolution now: four more years of Donald Trump.

    That will be a revolution.

    Four years of Trump feeling validated in all the crazy stuff he’s done and said. Four years of Trump unburdened by the need to run for re-election and able to amplify his racism, make Ivanka secretary of state, appoint even more crackpots to his cabinet and likely get to name two right-wing Supreme Court justices under the age of 40.

    Yes sir, that will be a revolution!

    It will be an overthrow of all the norms, values, rules and institutions that we cherish, that made us who we are and that have united us in this common project called the United States of America.

    If the fear of that doesn’t motivate the Democratic Party’s base, then shame on those people. Not all elections are equal. Some elections are a vote for great changes — like the Great Society. Others are a vote to save the country. This election is the latter.

    That doesn’t mean a Democratic candidate should stand for nothing, just keep it simple: Focus on building national unity and good jobs.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  21. #1146
    RIP Dorothy Seymour Mills Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    This CNN thing where they are drawing names for the debate lineup like it's the NFL draft or something is pathetic. The presidential election is not a sporting event.

  22. #1147
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    This CNN thing where they are drawing names for the debate lineup like it's the NFL draft or something is pathetic. The presidential election is not a sporting event.
    Since when?
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  23. #1148
    RIP Dorothy Seymour Mills Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Since when?
    Okay. But we're supposed to pretend.
    Take car. Go to Mum's. Kill Phil - "Sorry." - grab Liz, go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over. How's that for a slice of fried gold?

  24. #1149
    RIP Dorothy Seymour Mills Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Worst NFL draft I've ever watched but here are the results.

    TUESDAY, JULY 30
    Sanders
    Warren
    Buttigieg
    OíRourke
    Klobuchar
    Williamson
    Delaney
    Hickenlooper
    Ryan
    Bullock

    WEDNESDAY, JULY 31
    Biden
    Harris
    Castro
    Yang
    Booker
    Inslee
    Gillibrand
    Gabbard
    Bennet
    de Blasio
    Take car. Go to Mum's. Kill Phil - "Sorry." - grab Liz, go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over. How's that for a slice of fried gold?

  25. #1150
    Hope is eternal
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    This CNN thing where they are drawing names for the debate lineup like it's the NFL draft or something is pathetic. The presidential election is not a sporting event.
    I had the Super Bowl pre game in mind
    The sky is falling! We are doomed!

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