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  1. #601
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post

    I'm not opposed to Warren's Wealth Tax. In fact, I think it's a pretty reasonable idea. I just question her ability to implement it. It amounts to seizing property from only certain people, and I don't see how it passes Constitutional muster.
    We already do that. I pay more for Amazon Prime than Amazon pays in taxes.

    Oh and we do have an estate tax which only seizes property from certain people - because the law is written that way.

  2. #602

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post

    I wish AOC could run - while I disagree with her to an extreme on economic policy, I have deep admiration for her willingness to speak truth to power on the subject of political corruption, which is the single most important issue in my mind. If she were to run against Trump, I would actually feel like 2 people were running who are not afraid to "stick it to the man," and I could embrace the outcome whichever way it would go.
    Examples of Trump “speaking truth to power”:

    - Calling for the death penalty for the “Central Park Five” teenagers.

    - “I wish I were born black in America. I would have had so many advantages.”

    - “I just grab them by the pu**y.”

    - Lying about his assets on his construction loan applications for his Atlantic City casinos and then defaulting on his debt.

    - Falsely claiming that Obama’s presidency was illegitimate because he was born in Kenya.

    - Criticizing President Obama for playing golf too much while in office. (Trump has cost taxpayers over $100 million for his 186 golf outings while president.)

    - Taking Putin’s denials of election interference at face value. “I believe Putin.”

    - Accepting the Saudi crown prince’s denial of complicity in the Khashoggi murder. “I believe him.”

    - Standing up to poverty stricken Central American asylum seekers. (That’s really taking on the powerful.)

  3. #603

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Things like sales tax and property tax are paid locally....they are NOT levied by the federal government. With little doubt, if the Fed COULD add in some sales tax and property tax, they would.

    I'm not opposed to Warren's Wealth Tax. In fact, I think it's a pretty reasonable idea. I just question her ability to implement it. It amounts to seizing property from only certain people, and I don't see how it passes Constitutional muster.
    The problem with a wealth tax is that it usually hurts the person who is signing your paycheck. That never ends well. If the company survives, the workers bear the brunt with lower pay rates, downsizing, and lost jobs.

    Cutting taxes on the wealthy is also problematic, because there is no guarantee that the benefits will "trickle down" to the workforce, other than them being less likely to lose their jobs entirely.

    The best thing for everyone except the corporate giants is deregulation that makes it easier for small businesses to get off the ground, to compete, and to succeed. The American Dream is to be able to start and run your own business and not have to rely on one of the giants to pay you.

  4. #604
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    The problem with a wealth tax is that it usually hurts the person who is signing your paycheck. That never ends well. If the company survives, the workers bear the brunt with lower pay rates, downsizing, and lost jobs.

    Cutting taxes on the wealthy is also problematic, because there is no guarantee that the benefits will "trickle down" to the workforce, other than them being less likely to lose their jobs entirely.

    The best thing for everyone except the corporate giants is deregulation that makes it easier for small businesses to get off the ground, to compete, and to succeed. The American Dream is to be able to start and run your own business and not have to rely on one of the giants to pay you.
    Ah the myth of the unregulated guiding hand of the free market being a panacea for all.
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  5. #605
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    The problem with a wealth tax is that it usually hurts the person who is signing your paycheck. That never ends well. If the company survives, the workers bear the brunt with lower pay rates, downsizing, and lost jobs.

    Cutting taxes on the wealthy is also problematic, because there is no guarantee that the benefits will "trickle down" to the workforce, other than them being less likely to lose their jobs entirely.

    The best thing for everyone except the corporate giants is deregulation that makes it easier for small businesses to get off the ground, to compete, and to succeed. The American Dream is to be able to start and run your own business and not have to rely on one of the giants to pay you.
    The federal government isn't instituting crippling regulation on small businesses. That's the states or towns that make it hard to get the requisite permits and whatnot.

    The federal government is there to regulate the biggest corporations...and they've done a TERRIBLE job of it ever since the 80s. The result has been unfettered profits, stagnant wages, terrible job protection, a destroyed environment, trillions in debt and a government where the fox guards the henhouse. But yeah, big government is the problem.

  6. #606

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    The federal government isn't instituting crippling regulation on small businesses. That's the states or towns that make it hard to get the requisite permits and whatnot.
    The states and towns play a big role. Local politicians have been known to make it very difficult for local business owners due to personal vendettas. I've worked for a number of different supermarket chains in my little slice of New Jersey, and the owners all have stories to tell about what they've had to go through to get a certain store built in a certain spot.

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    The federal government is there to regulate the biggest corporations...and they've done a TERRIBLE job of it ever since the 80s. The result has been unfettered profits, stagnant wages, terrible job protection, a destroyed environment, trillions in debt and a government where the fox guards the henhouse. But yeah, big government is the problem.
    That's true. And the problem isn't incompetence for the most part. It's pay-for-play politics, where instead of doing what's right, politicians do what their donors ask of them. I've just about lost hope in campaign finance reform and term limits, but it's the key to solving all of this. Our lawmakers simply don't act in good faith.

    The problem isn't so much whether a politician stands up for the "left" or the "right" - the problem is that they only stand up for generating money for their party, themselves, and using that money to amass more power to keep the machine going.

  7. #607
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    That's true. And the problem isn't incompetence for the most part. It's pay-for-play politics, where instead of doing what's right, politicians do what their donors ask of them. I've just about lost hope in campaign finance reform and term limits, but it's the key to solving all of this. Our lawmakers simply don't act in good faith.

    The problem isn't so much whether a politician stands up for the "left" or the "right" - the problem is that they only stand up for generating money for their party, themselves, and using that money to amass more power to keep the machine going.
    Given that statement, would you vote for Trump in 2020 if Bernie was the Dem nominee?
    Jingoism is not Patriotism

  8. #608

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    Given that statement, would you vote for Trump in 2020 if Bernie was the Dem nominee?
    I liked Bernie in 2016, but he seems like a sell-out to me now. He talked a big game during his last primary campaign, but all I hear from him now are the usual D-party talking points.

    Assuming she sticks to her guns, I would vote for AOC in 2024 if she was running against an establishment republican [think Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnel, Mike Pence, Lindsay Graham]. If she was running against Rand Paul? Not a chance.

  9. #609
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    https://twitter.com/aterkel/status/1...845632513?s=21

    Looks like Howard Shultz is shutting things down
    The sky is falling! We are doomed!

  10. #610
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    I liked Bernie in 2016, but he seems like a sell-out to me now. He talked a big game during his last primary campaign, but all I hear from him now are the usual D-party talking points.

    Assuming she sticks to her guns, I would vote for AOC in 2024 if she was running against an establishment republican [think Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnel, Mike Pence, Lindsay Graham]. If she was running against Rand Paul? Not a chance.
    I don't see it as "selling out", but more like he's leveraged his popularity to yank the entire party in a more left/progressive direction, to the point where now every candidate is echoing some talking point he first championed in 2016.

    I'm not sure what you consider "the usual D-party talking points". You'd have to go back to Carter or maybe even FDR for things like M4A to be considered "usual" coming out of the mouth of a Democrat running for president.

    As for me, Trump represents everything I have disdain and contempt for in the world: fascist rhetoric, bullying, swindling, venal morality, unearned wealth and privilege, selfishness, lack of intellectual or spiritual curiosity. He's basically the dark side of the American Dream personified.

    He's also the symptom of a much larger problem I've talked about before in these threads, which is why anyone expecting the issues he's created/exposed to simply go away when he leaves office is kidding themselves (in much the same way we were kidding ourselves when we thought racism would end when Obama got elected).

    But I do think you hit on something that seems to have been a theme these last few election cycles: For an increasing number of voters, it's less about Left vs Right, and more about Establishment vs Outsiders.

    It's how Obama won twice, and it's how Trump won (and could potentially win again). It's also why I think nominating Biden would be a mistake.
    Jingoism is not Patriotism

  11. #611

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    I liked Bernie in 2016, but he seems like a sell-out to me now. He talked a big game during his last primary campaign, but all I hear from him now are the usual D-party talking points.

    Assuming she sticks to her guns, I would vote for AOC in 2024 if she was running against an establishment republican [think Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnel, Mike Pence, Lindsay Graham]. If she was running against Rand Paul? Not a chance.
    Why not vote for Bill Weld now? He’s a Libertarian and a fiscal conservative who’s challenging Trump within the Republican Party.

  12. #612
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by YFIB View Post
    By what definition is Trump fiscally conservative? Cutting taxes and running up an enormous debt (in the midst of a booming economy) wouldn't seem to fit that definition



    He's criminal, not creepy.
    I literally said “not creepy at all”.

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  13. #613

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    https://twitter.com/aterkel/status/1...845632513?s=21

    Looks like Howard Shultz is shutting things down
    I had to Google his name.

  14. #614
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    I had to Google his name.
    Me too. I thought he was the Peanuts guy for a second.
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  15. #615
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    I liked Bernie in 2016, but he seems like a sell-out to me now. He talked a big game during his last primary campaign, but all I hear from him now are the usual D-party talking points.

    Assuming she sticks to her guns, I would vote for AOC in 2024 if she was running against an establishment republican [think Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnel, Mike Pence, Lindsay Graham]. If she was running against Rand Paul? Not a chance.
    I don't think Bernie is a sell out. He's saying the same things he's been saying since the 80s. The reason it sounds like everyone else is because everyone else has moved towards his positions because he showed them it isn't a career ended to say the things he's been saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    I don't see it as "selling out", but more like he's leveraged his popularity to yank the entire party in a more left/progressive direction, to the point where now every candidate is echoing some talking point he first championed in 2016.

    I'm not sure what you consider "the usual D-party talking points". You'd have to go back to Carter or maybe even FDR for things like M4A to be considered "usual" coming out of the mouth of a Democrat running for president.

    As for me, Trump represents everything I have disdain and contempt for in the world: fascist rhetoric, bullying, swindling, venal morality, unearned wealth and privilege, selfishness, lack of intellectual or spiritual curiosity. He's basically the dark side of the American Dream personified.

    He's also the symptom of a much larger problem I've talked about before in these threads, which is why anyone expecting the issues he's created/exposed to simply go away when he leaves office is kidding themselves (in much the same way we were kidding ourselves when we thought racism would end when Obama got elected).

    But I do think you hit on something that seems to have been a theme these last few election cycles: For an increasing number of voters, it's less about Left vs Right, and more about Establishment vs Outsiders.

    It's how Obama won twice, and it's how Trump won (and could potentially win again). It's also why I think nominating Biden would be a mistake.
    That's why when I hear Biden say things like "once Trump is gone we'll get back to business as usual" infuriates me. Does he not remember that time he was VICE PRESIDENT FOR 8 YEARS and McConnell did what he did? Trump is a symptom of the growing rot in the GOP that started with Nixon and the southern strategy.

  16. #616
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    https://twitter.com/stevekornacki/st...646371334?s=21

    California poll has Warren 4 points behind Biden.
    The sky is falling! We are doomed!

  17. #617
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    That's why when I hear Biden say things like "once Trump is gone we'll get back to business as usual" infuriates me. Does he not remember that time he was VICE PRESIDENT FOR 8 YEARS and McConnell did what he did? Trump is a symptom of the growing rot in the GOP that started with Nixon and the southern strategy.
    I would argue it's much bigger than that.

    He is a symptom of decades of neoliberal policies and lack of accountability by both the Dems and the GOP, which has resulted in the erosion of the middle class and growing distrust in ALL established institutions, not just government (education, religion, news media, etc.), that no longer work for the majority of people.
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  18. #618
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Bernie Sanders gave an passionate speech defending and defining democratic socialism yesterday.



    Or if you'd rather read it the transcript is here.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/6/12/186632...ech-transcript

  19. #619

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    Bernie Sanders gave an passionate speech defending and defining democratic socialism yesterday.

    Or if you'd rather read it the transcript is here.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/6/12/186632...ech-transcript
    I'm sorry to say this, because I was a Bernie Bro at one point, but this is a lot of hot air

    He never says how he's going to redistribute wealth to those of us who don't have it. $15/hour? If the cost of goods goes up even a little, that won't help. I'm sure with higher taxes, the cost of goods will go up exponentially. Do you know how much a loaf of bread costs in Venezuela since Maduro took over?

    What's worse, he doesn't tell you any of the other downsides to his proposal. In fact, he flips reality on its back.

    Do you know what Nazi stood for? National Socialist Party.

    Socialism and authoritarianism go hand-in-hand. Any time the government gives you something for free, there are always strings attached. Free healthcare? They decide the doctor and the treatment. Free food for your baby? They will weigh your child regularly and decide what fat content the milk has to be. Heaven forbid if they find a bump or a bruise. Free housing? They will set curfews, monitor you, and tell you who is allowed to stay over and who isn't. How do I know? Personal first-hand experience, that's how. These programs already exist, and this is how they operate. Socialism would crash the economy and force everyone to rely on these welfare programs.

    Bernie's plan would just take the police state to the next level. NO THANKS.

  20. #620

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eliza...b0985c41973900

    Elizabeth Warren Sees Girls As Future Leaders. What About Joe Biden?

    When Elizabeth Warren ran for Senate in 2011, she met a lot of young girls on the campaign trail. She didn’t concern herself with their appearance. Instead, she would deploy a practiced move designed to inspire, she explained to the audience at a CNN town hall in April.

    “My name is Elizabeth,” she would say. “And I’m running for senator because that’s what girls do.” Then she would extend her pinky and they’d swear on it.

    Contrast that with how fellow 2020 hopeful Joe Biden sometimes talks to young girls on the campaign trail. It’s perhaps more immediate and revealing than any policy paper.

    The former vice president was introduced to a voter’s granddaughter at a coffee shop in Iowa on Wednesday. He asked her age — 13 years old — and then turned to her brothers. “You’ve got one job here, keep the guys away from your sister,” he said, according to a tweet from a reporter at the Boston Globe.

    “Biden talks to girls and brings in their looks,” said Rebecca Katz, a progressive Democratic consultant. “Warren talks to girls and brings up their potential.”

    Biden’s comment is a sad reminder that in a world stocked with “girl power” T-shirts, young women are still getting the message that their power is limited, and that they’re going to need a man for protection.

  21. #621
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/eliza...b0985c41973900

    Elizabeth Warren Sees Girls As Future Leaders. What About Joe Biden?
    I just wish the guy hadn't run. He reminds me of an older relative you shake your head at, but you know he's not going to change at this point. I would have preferred to have him conclude his political career and focus on raising money for cancer research - it's just past his time.

  22. #622

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Jeff Sessions smacks Joe Biden's Hand Away From Young Girl



    WARNING: EXTREMELY CREEPY FOOTAGE - DO NOT WATCH BEFORE EATING

  23. #623
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    I'm sorry to say this, because I was a Bernie Bro at one point, but this is a lot of hot air

    He never says how he's going to redistribute wealth to those of us who don't have it. $15/hour? If the cost of goods goes up even a little, that won't help.
    Price increases happen all the time independently of the minimum wage. The only difference is that a higher minimum wage means those workers might, for a time, be able to actually afford those goods.

    I'm sure with higher taxes, the cost of goods will go up exponentially. Do you know how much a loaf of bread costs in Venezuela since Maduro took over?
    Venezuela's economy went into a cyclical downturn at around the same time the US banned them from participating in our banking system, which caused all kinds of issues with trade, including price spikes on the imports of ingredients needed to bake bread which are not grown domestically.

    Maduro is no saint, but you can't "yada yada" what's happening there as just the product of evil socialism. There are a lot of moving parts worth researching.

    Do you know what Nazi stood for? National Socialist Party.
    Do you know that there were multiple socialist parties in Germany at that time who weren't deranged murderers?


    Socialism and authoritarianism go hand-in-hand.
    Power and authoritarianism go hand-in-hand, which is why checks-and-balances are important in any political system.

    Any time the government gives you something for free, there are always strings attached. Free healthcare? They decide the doctor and the treatment. Free food for your baby? They will weigh your child regularly and decide what fat content the milk has to be. Heaven forbid if they find a bump or a bruise. Free housing? They will set curfews, monitor you, and tell you who is allowed to stay over and who isn't. How do I know? Personal first-hand experience, that's how. These programs already exist, and this is how they operate. Socialism would crash the economy and force everyone to rely on these welfare programs.

    Bernie's plan would just take the police state to the next level. NO THANKS.
    I'm having a hard time believing you were ever a Bernie Bro if you honestly believe these things are what Bernie's plan is, but maybe I'm wrong and you just have a fatalistic attitude toward anything that resembles socialism.

    Ask yourself honestly, if another candidate ran on Bernie's exact platform, but never used the "S" word, would you be more likely to vote for him/her?
    Jingoism is not Patriotism

  24. #624

    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    Price increases happen all the time independently of the minimum wage. The only difference is that a higher minimum wage means those workers might, for a time, be able to actually afford those goods.



    Venezuela's economy went into a cyclical downturn at around the same time the US banned them from participating in our banking system, which caused all kinds of issues with trade, including price spikes on the imports of ingredients needed to bake bread which are not grown domestically.

    Maduro is no saint, but you can't "yada yada" what's happening there as just the product of evil socialism. There are a lot of moving parts worth researching.



    Do you know that there were multiple socialist parties in Germany at that time who weren't deranged murderers?




    Power and authoritarianism go hand-in-hand, which is why checks-and-balances are important in any political system.



    I'm having a hard time believing you were ever a Bernie Bro if you honestly believe these things are what Bernie's plan is, but maybe I'm wrong and you just have a fatalistic attitude toward anything that resembles socialism.

    Ask yourself honestly, if another candidate ran on Bernie's exact platform, but never used the "S" word, would you be more likely to vote for him/her?
    I've read a lot of books since 2016, and my understanding of economics and government has changed a lot since then. As I implied, I was on some government programs at one point, and I saw a glimpse of the dark side of it. I don't want to get into what I personally went through, but the government will invade your life and privacy quickly if you start asking them for handouts. At this point, I just want the government to stay out of my life at almost any cost.

  25. #625
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    Re: 2020 Democratic Nomination

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    I've read a lot of books since 2016, and my understanding of economics and government has changed a lot since then. As I implied, I was on some government programs at one point, and I saw a glimpse of the dark side of it. I don't want to get into what I personally went through, but the government will invade your life and privacy quickly if you start asking them for handouts. At this point, I just want the government to stay out of my life at almost any cost.
    Fair enough.

    But just keep in mind that there's a big difference between what you see as the dark side and what is actually being proposed.

    I mean, Medicare has existed for quite some time and works well for people who are eligible. So why not expand the number of people who are eligible?

    That's a far cry from the gov't deciding doctors and treatments.
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