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Thread: 2019 HoF Ballot

  1. #51
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    There are only 8 CF inducted by BBWAA:

    Ty Cobb
    Tris Speaker
    Joe DiMaggio
    Mickey Mantle
    Willie Mays
    Duke Snider
    Kirby Puckett
    Ken Griffey Jr.

  2. #52
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    Yet Bernie never received a large number of votes. But no anti Yankees bias by the BBWs. Just like no bias against Miller.
    Are you suggesting that the two are somehow comparable?

    You seemed to be OK with the idea that Bernie isnít a HOFer, but feel aggrieved that he should have been rejected with a higher insufficient percentage than he was. From that you infer anti-Yankee bias, as you do with every baseball award not given to a Yankee. I think one has to use a microscope to see the evidence of bias here, and even then it might just be a little shmutz on the slide.

  3. #53
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Are you suggesting that the two are somehow comparable?

    You seemed to be OK with the idea that Bernie isnít a HOFer, but feel aggrieved that he should have been rejected with a higher insufficient percentage than he was. From that you infer anti-Yankee bias, as you do with every baseball award not given to a Yankee. I think one has to use a microscope to see the evidence of bias here, and even then it might just be a little shmutz on the slide.
    No, I think Bernie should have been voted in. And I do not believe every award should go to a Yankees player. But when you read that the players just voted Andujar their ROY award and earlier a poll of Coaches, managers and scouts agreed but the writers give all their votes to Othani that there might be some resentment towards the Yankees involved.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    No, I think Bernie should have been voted in. And I do not believe every award should go to a Yankees player. But when you read that the players just voted Andujar their ROY award and earlier a poll of Coaches, managers and scouts agreed but the writers give all their votes to Othani that there might be some resentment towards the Yankees involved.
    In 2003 both BBWAA and the players voted Angel Berroa as the RoY.

    In 2016 both BBWAA and the players voted Fulmer as the RoY.

    In 2001, both voted Clemens as the pitcher of the league.

    Maybe they're bias against Andujar, not the Yankees. Or maybe there is no bias. People just love the players on the team so much and ignore how the writers treat other teams' players.

  5. #55
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    No, I think Bernie should have been voted in. And I do not believe every award should go to a Yankees player. But when you read that the players just voted Andujar their ROY award and earlier a poll of Coaches, managers and scouts agreed but the writers give all their votes to Othani that there might be some resentment towards the Yankees involved.
    Oh!tani was a perfectly reasonable choice. So was Andķjar. Some people preferred one to another. Itís easily explained without having to assume bias.

    Does each individual BBWAA arrive at his anti-Yankee bias independently, or is there some secret organizational mandate?

  6. #56
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Player A: 7003 AB, .307/.358/.471, 2153 H, 222 HR, 127 OPS+, 42.4 WAR, 6-time AS
    Player B: 7173 AB, .303/.384/.497, 2176 H, 284 HR, 137 OPS+, 56.5 WAR, 6-time AS

    Player A had 3 MVP top 5 finish, winning 1.
    Player B had 4 MVP top 5 finish.

    Player A lasted 15 years on the ballot.
    Player B was a one-and-done.

  7. #57
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Player A: 7003 AB, .307/.358/.471, 2153 H, 222 HR, 127 OPS+, 42.4 WAR, 6-time AS
    Player B: 7173 AB, .303/.384/.497, 2176 H, 284 HR, 137 OPS+, 56.5 WAR, 6-time AS

    Player A had 3 MVP top 5 finish, winning 1.
    Player B had 4 MVP top 5 finish.

    Player A lasted 15 years on the ballot.
    Player B was a one-and-done.
    Also, both were known as excellent defensive players at the same position.

  8. #58
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    In 2003 both BBWAA and the players voted Angel Berroa as the RoY.

    In 2016 both BBWAA and the players voted Fulmer as the RoY.

    In 2001, both voted Clemens as the pitcher of the league.

    Maybe they're bias against Andujar, not the Yankees. Or maybe there is no bias. People just love the players on the team so much and ignore how the writers treat other teams' players.
    Fulmer is understandable since he pitched a full season over Sanchez playing 2 months. 2001 there might have been extenuating circumstances giving the award to Clemens over Mulder.

  9. #59

    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Oh!tani was a perfectly reasonable choice. So was Andķjar. Some people preferred one to another. Itís easily explained without having to assume bias.

    Does each individual BBWAA arrive at his anti-Yankee bias independently, or is there some secret organizational mandate?
    Is there a secret handshake involved, too. That would be cool.
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  10. #60
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Player A: 7003 AB, .307/.358/.471, 2153 H, 222 HR, 127 OPS+, 42.4 WAR, 6-time AS
    Player B: 7173 AB, .303/.384/.497, 2176 H, 284 HR, 137 OPS+, 56.5 WAR, 6-time AS

    Player A had 3 MVP top 5 finish, winning 1.
    Player B had 4 MVP top 5 finish.

    Player A lasted 15 years on the ballot.
    Player B was a one-and-done.
    Sounds like player A got some friendly bias to keep him on the ballot so long.

    Player B was probably known as a red-ass.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  11. #61

    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Does each individual BBWAA arrive at his anti-Yankee bias independently, or is there some secret organizational mandate?
    It's all worked out in advance at the Raccoon Lodge meetings.

  12. #62
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mxylsplk View Post
    It's all worked out in advance at the Raccoon Lodge meetings.
    Aren't you going to give me the friendly Raccoon hello? OOOH-WOOOH!!

  13. #63
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by HelloNewman View Post
    Aren't you going to give me the friendly Raccoon hello? OOOH-WOOOH!!
    I don't care if you burn.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  14. #64
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I don't care if you burn.
    I don't mind if you insult me, but when you insult Pierre Francois de la Brioschi, you insult the honor of France! I challenge you to a duel! Do you have any seconds?

  15. #65
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    I will be interested in seeing how many votes Andy gets on his first ballot. IMO, he is borderline HoF, but if he starts strong, it would bode well for his chances.
    I think that he will eventually get in, but his PED problem will haunt him for a few years.

  16. #66
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Sixty one View Post
    I think that he will eventually get in, but his PED problem will haunt him for a few years.
    PED might keep Andy out entirely.

  17. #67

    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Player A: 7003 AB, .307/.358/.471, 2153 H, 222 HR, 127 OPS+, 42.4 WAR, 6-time AS
    Player B: 7173 AB, .303/.384/.497, 2176 H, 284 HR, 137 OPS+, 56.5 WAR, 6-time AS

    Player A had 3 MVP top 5 finish, winning 1.
    Player B had 4 MVP top 5 finish.

    Player A lasted 15 years on the ballot.
    Player B was a one-and-done.
    Mad Dog used to love to stoke the argument about which of these two was better. Great banter.

    Player A had a better peak and Player B couldn’t hold a candle to Player A’s fielding. But Player B had the better career. No anti-Yankee bias there.

  18. #68
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Mad Dog used to love to stoke the argument about which of these two was better. Great banter.

    Player A had a better peak and Player B couldnít hold a candle to Player Aís fielding.
    I had remembered B as an excellent fielder, but I could be wrong. In any case, I donít think defense at that position has ever had a significant effect - positive or negative - on anyoneís HOF chances.

  19. #69

    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I had remembered B as an excellent fielder, but I could be wrong. In any case, I don’t think defense at that position has ever had a significant effect - positive or negative - on anyone’s HOF chances.
    I wasn’t disagreeing with you about Player B’s fielding. In fact I would agree with you on this point. I was saying that Player A was exceptional, just shy of the Keith Hernandez universe, and was recognized as such at the time with 9 Gold Gloves. Player B had 1 GG.

  20. #70
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    I wasnít disagreeing with you about Player Bís fielding. In fact I would agree with you on this point. I was saying that Player A was exceptional, just shy of the Keith Hernandez universe, and was recognized as such at the time with 9 Gold Gloves. Player B had 1 GG.
    Fair enough. And I agree, Player A was exceptional, but Keith Hernandez was in his own universe.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  21. #71

    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Fair enough. And I agree, Player A was exceptional, but Keith Hernandez was in his own universe.
    Agree about Keith being in a class of his own.

  22. #72

    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    There are only 8 CF inducted by BBWAA:

    Ty Cobb
    Tris Speaker
    Joe DiMaggio
    Mickey Mantle
    Willie Mays
    Duke Snider
    Kirby Puckett
    Ken Griffey Jr.
    Tough group to crack, although Bernie was Puckett's equal offensively, and Puckett won 6 GGs to Williams' 4. But, I haven't looked at advanced defensive metrics.

    In the postseason, Puckett put up a .897 OPS compared to Bernie's .850. But Bernie had 545 PAs compared to 109 for Puckett, exactly 5 times as many.

  23. #73
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoePepitonesHair View Post
    Tough group to crack, although Bernie was Puckett's equal offensively, and Puckett won 6 GGs to Williams' 4. But, I haven't looked at advanced defensive metrics.

    In the postseason, Puckett put up a .897 OPS compared to Bernie's .850. But Bernie had 545 PAs compared to 109 for Puckett, exactly 5 times as many.
    Puckett was kind of a special case.

  24. #74

    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Harold Baines and Lee Smith were just elected by the Today's Game Era committee (the veteran's committee for the period since 1988). I mean, c'mon.

  25. #75

    Re: 2019 HoF Ballot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mxylsplk View Post
    Harold Baines and Lee Smith were just elected by the Today's Game Era committee (the veteran's committee for the period since 1988). I mean, c'mon.
    Harold Baines is in the HOF and guys like Graig Nettles, Ron Guidry and Willie Randolph barely got a whiff?

    If you ranked those guys according to who you would most like to have, in order, for their career, Harold Baines is easily dead last.

    I'm not ripping him, he was a very solid player. But come the F on.

    I'm being Yankee centric here, but many examples in many other orgs too...Edgar Martinez? Fred McGriff? Hell, Keith Hernandez.

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