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  1. #1

    CY Young Conversation

    Who ya got?

    AL - Verlander or Kluber?
    NL - deGrom or Scherzer?

  2. #2

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Who ya got?

    AL - Verlander or Kluber?
    NL - deGrom or Scherzer?
    NL is a tie?

    AL-really tough.
    WHIP leaders are Sale, Verlander, Kluber and Snell.
    K’s are Verlander, Cole, Sale and Bauer.
    ERA leaders are Sale, Snell, Bauer and Verlander.

    Sale 1, Verlander 2.

    If season were longer Snell could win.

    Oops correction below.

  3. #3

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Correction to above- Although Sale doesn’t have a lot of innings pitched either. We’ll see if voters hold that against him and Snell.

  4. #4
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    Re: CY Young Conversation

    I havenít looked too deeply but of the top of my head Snell & De Grom
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  5. #5

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I haven’t looked too deeply but of the top of my head Snell & De Grom
    Snell is a dicey choice since he’s pitched 38 fewer innings than Verlander.
    Last edited by Bill Marsh; 09-27-18 at 02:12 AM.

  6. #6
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    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Smell is a dicey choice since heís pitched 38 fewer innings than Verlander.
    Gotta love autocorrect
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  7. #7

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Gotta love autocorrect
    Agree.

  8. #8

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    DeGrom is head and shoulders above everyone else in the NL. What a season!

    AL is a really tough call. Iíll go with Verlander who leads the league in Strikeouts, WHIP, Quality Starts, and Innings. But I can see a good argument for several others.

  9. #9

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Nola is second in the NL in ERA. He'd have to throw 90 straight scoreless innings to catch deGrom. Scherzer is third, and would need to throw more than 105.

  10. #10
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    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    DeGrom is head and shoulders above everyone else in the NL. What a season!

    AL is a really tough call. I’ll go with Verlander who leads the league in Strikeouts, WHIP, Quality Starts, and Innings. But I can see a good argument for several others.
    http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/2...r-believed-now says the Mets went 14-18 when deGrom started. Of the 40 previous times since 1980 where a team went exactly 14-18 in a pitcher's starts, the best ERA was 3.07 by Hiroki Kuroda in 2011, which was his last year for the Dodgers. That has 80.8% higher than deGrom's ERA this year. Kuroda did not get run support with the Dodgers or Yankees. He finished 79-79 with a 3.45 ERA. Kuroda is the only pitcher to finish in 1992 or later, pitch at least 1,000 innings, make at least 100 starts, have an ERA of 3.50 or lower, and have a winning percentage of .500 or lower.

    I don't like giving the Cy Young to a pitcher who doesn't average 6 innings per start, but I don't see how you put Verlander's .640 winning percentage and 2.60 ERA ahead of Snell's .808 winning percentage and 1.90 ERA. I might vote for Blake Treinen, who won't come close to winning but could do something for the first time. He has 79 1/3 innings, 7 earned runs allowed, a 0.79 ERA, and is 9-2. If he allows 0 or 1 more earned run, he will become the first pitcher to pitch at least 75 innings with more wins than earned runs allowed.

  11. #11

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    I can't corroborate this but a friend of mine quoted a stat that said if the Mets had scored just 3 runs in each of deGrom's starts he could have gone 29-2 or something crazy like that. Theoretically, of course. Still. The dude had a helluva season and it's really too bad it was wasted.
    /sarcasm
    KayNOTForPresident

  12. #12
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    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I havenít looked too deeply but of the top of my head Snell & De Grom
    After further consideration, I stand by my initial choices.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  13. #13

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by KayForPresident View Post
    I can't corroborate this but a friend of mine quoted a stat that said if the Mets had scored just 3 runs in each of deGrom's starts he could have gone 29-2 or something crazy like that. Theoretically, of course. Still. The dude had a helluva season and it's really too bad it was wasted.
    Not sure what your friend is looking at in saying that - 12 times this season in a game deGrom started, the Mets lost while giving up 4 runs or more.

  14. #14

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    I think I found what he was referencing and the logic is hinky for sure as it ignores the bullpen blowing games...

    https://twitter.com/robertgsellman/s...93582987042816

    But there is no denying that had he gotten even modest run support his record would probably be the best in the league.
    /sarcasm
    KayNOTForPresident

  15. #15
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    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by KayForPresident View Post
    I think I found what he was referencing and the logic is hinky for sure as it ignores the bullpen blowing games...

    https://twitter.com/robertgsellman/s...93582987042816

    But there is no denying that had he gotten even modest run support his record would probably be the best in the league.
    completely faulty logic
    that assumes the mets bull pen allows zero runs all games he pitches.
    I mean he's still by far the pest pitcher in baseball this season they don't need to make stuff up to prove it
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  16. #16

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by EvanJ View Post
    [url]

    I don't like giving the Cy Young to a pitcher who doesn't average 6 innings per start, but I don't see how you put Verlander's .640 winning percentage and 2.60 ERA ahead of Snell's .808 winning percentage and 1.90 ERA. I might vote for Blake Treinen, who won't come close to winning but could do something for the first time. He has 79 1/3 innings, 7 earned runs allowed, a 0.79 ERA, and is 9-2. If he allows 0 or 1 more earned run, he will become the first pitcher to pitch at least 75 innings with more wins than earned runs allowed.
    Yes, every candidate for AL CY is flawed. Everyone has their own criteria. For me, I look for a pitcher who is The Man when he starts a game. Snell’s 175 innings are just too few for me to consider him especially in light of the 32 inning gap between him and Verlander. But that’s just me.

    I considered Treinen, thinking that with all the flawed starters this year, it just might be the season for a reliever. But there are a couple of negatives that turned me against him. First, I asked how could a Closer with that low an ERA have only 37 saves pitching for a team as good as the A’s? One reason is that he blew 5 saves. As a result he had only the 5th highest save % in the AL. That’s not bad but it’s certainly not dominant and for a reliever to be considered fo CY, he has to be dominant IMO.

    The other factor in Treinen’s case is that ERA tells only part of the story for a reliever. He inherited 19 runners and allowed 6 of them to score, which puts him a notch below average in % of inherited runners scored. Average (more or less) is not bad, but again it’s not dominant. I couldn’t go with him for CY especially in a season in which Diaz posted one of the highest Saves totals of all time. Treinen may not even be the best Closer this year, much less the best pitcher overall. Just my 2 cents.

  17. #17
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    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Yes, every candidate for AL CY is flawed. Everyone has their own criteria. For me, I look for a pitcher who is The Man when he starts a game. Snellís 175 innings are just too few for me to consider him especially in light of the 32 inning gap between him and Verlander. But thatís just me.

    I considered Treinen, thinking that with all the flawed starters this year, it just might be the season for a reliever. But there are a couple of negatives that turned me against him. First, I asked how could a Closer with that low an ERA have only 37 saves pitching for a team as good as the Aís? One reason is that he blew 5 saves. As a result he had only the 5th highest save % in the AL. Thatís not bad but itís certainly not dominant and for a reliever to be considered fo CY, he has to be dominant IMO.

    The other factor in Treinenís case is that ERA tells only part of the story for a reliever. He inherited 19 runners and allowed 6 of them to score, which puts him a notch below average in % of inherited runners scored. Average (more or less) is not bad, but again itís not dominant. I couldnít go with him for CY especially in a season in which Diaz posted one of the highest Saves totals of all time. Treinen may not even be the best Closer this year, much less the best pitcher overall. Just my 2 cents.
    Treinen is absolutely the best closer in baseball this year. I don't think there is a distant 2nd, let alone a close 2nd. He's a large part of the reason the A's are 68-1 in games they lead after 7 innings and the one they lost was due to the best defensive 3B in the AL making a costly error that cost Treinen a save.



    That said I think closers should get consideration mostly in years where there isn't a dominant starter with a good cy-young resume and this year there are several good candidates.


    For me it comes down to the pretty big gap in ERA between Snell and Verlander that swings it to Snell. But I can see for you the innings argument swinging it to Verlander. Also despite the extra innings and Ks, Snell has a large lead in WAR if you're into that kind of thing and extra innings usually favor WAR guys.


    That said I wouldn't be upset at anyone voting for any of Snell, Verlander, Trienen, Kluder, Bauer, Sale, Cole depending on what their own personal critera is for handing out the award because I don't think anyone has a lock down argument for winning it in the AL.


    In the NL anyone who doesn't vote DeGrom is smoking crack as far as I'm concerned.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  18. #18

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Id probably go Snell and DeGrom.

    Snell had an amazing year despite the fewer innings. That doesnt bother me much.

    30 games 175.2 inning pitched is just a hair under 6 IP per start.

    21-5 with a 1.90 ERA is why he gets it for me. 1.90 ERA in the AL East? Wow. 211 Ks and 0.96 WHIP.

    DeGrom is the easy choice in the NL to me.
    The Continuance of Being Great, is Getting Number Twenty-Eight

  19. #19

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    Id probably go Snell and DeGrom.

    Snell had an amazing year despite the fewer innings. That doesnt bother me much.

    30 games 175.2 inning pitched is just a hair under 6 IP per start.

    21-5 with a 1.90 ERA is why he gets it for me. 1.90 ERA in the AL East? Wow. 211 Ks and 0.96 WHIP.

    DeGrom is the easy choice in the NL to me.
    Agreed
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  20. #20

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Treinen is absolutely the best closer in baseball this year. I don't think there is a distant 2nd, let alone a close 2nd. He's a large part of the reason the A's are 68-1 in games they lead after 7 innings and the one they lost was due to the best defensive 3B in the AL making a costly error that cost Treinen a save.



    That said I think closers should get consideration mostly in years where there isn't a dominant starter with a good cy-young resume and this year there are several good candidates.


    For me it comes down to the pretty big gap in ERA between Snell and Verlander that swings it to Snell. But I can see for you the innings argument swinging it to Verlander. Also despite the extra innings and Ks, Snell has a large lead in WAR if you're into that kind of thing and extra innings usually favor WAR guys.


    That said I wouldn't be upset at anyone voting for any of Snell, Verlander, Trienen, Kluder, Bauer, Sale, Cole depending on what their own personal critera is for handing out the award because I don't think anyone has a lock down argument for winning it in the AL.


    In the NL anyone who doesn't vote DeGrom is smoking crack as far as I'm concerned.
    I donít have an argument with anything you posted here, but I have to admit that I am confused by the Treinen thing, so I have some questions that maybe you can help me with.

    1. How did the Aís go 68-1 in the situations you mentioned and still have 18 blown saves as a team? I realize that a team can blow a save and still come back to win and that there can be more than 1 blown save in a game, but only 1 loss and 18 blown saves somehow doesnít compute. Treinen had 5 of those blown saves, so itís not like he was automatic or anything.

    2. Treinen had a fabulous ERA but his responsibilities go beyond earned runs if heís an elite reliever. He allowed only 7 earned runs in 79 innings, which is great. But he allowed 6 inherited runners to score which get charged to someone else. As a practical matter, it doesnít matter who they get charged to and both pitchers had a hand in allowing the runs. Those extra runs cut his effectiveness almost in half.

    3. I have to say that Iím not a big fan of the earned run stat. Someoneís judgment takes the pitcher off the hook for a run that scored on his watch. A run is a run. My opinion may be in the minority, but Treinen gave up 5 unearned Runs, which is a lot to give up in less than 80 innings. When you add these to his inherited runners scored, he wanít so invincible as his numbers might make him seem.

  21. #21

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    Id probably go Snell


    30 games 175.2 inning pitched is just a hair under 6 IP per start.
    You say that like itís a good thing. Weíre talking CY Young here. We should be looking closer to 7 IP per start, not 5.8.

    Itís not just the innings. How much of his gaudy stats were due to the fact that the team he pitched for used a quick hook? Would he have been able to put up the same ERA if her were going an inning deeper into games, which is essentially what Verlander and Kluber did? And how much does pitching deeper into the game help those teams by saving the bullpen? Thereís more to it than just the numbers.
    Last edited by Bill Marsh; 09-28-18 at 09:09 PM.

  22. #22
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    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    I donít have an argument with anything you posted here, but I have to admit that I am confused by the Treinen thing, so I have some questions that maybe you can help me with.

    1. How did the Aís go 68-1 in the situations you mentioned and still have 18 blown saves as a team? I realize that a team can blow a save and still come back to win and that there can be more than 1 blown save in a game, but only 1 loss and 18 blown saves somehow doesnít compute. Treinen had 5 of those blown saves, so itís not like he was automatic or anything.

    Blown saves can happen before the 8th inning. Also, yes the A's have won quite a few blown saves. They were 68-0 when leading after 7 innings until they were beat by Seattle a few days ago.



    In addition to the Saves though Trienen is also 9-2.

    2. Treinen had a fabulous ERA but his responsibilities go beyond earned runs if heís an elite reliever. He allowed only 7 earned runs in 79 innings, which is great. But he allowed 6 inherited runners to score which get charged to someone else. As a practical matter, it doesnít matter who they get charged to and both pitchers had a hand in allowing the runs. Those extra runs cut his effectiveness almost in half.
    I watch a lot of A's games - Treinen has been lights out. 98 Ks in 79 IP. He has a chance to be the first pitcher with any meaningful innings pitched to have mover wins than earned runs allowed in a season. He also has a 0.83 WHIP And just 2 HRs.


    3. I have to say that Iím not a big fan of the earned run stat. Someoneís judgment takes the pitcher off the hook for a run that scored on his watch. A run is a run. My opinion may be in the minority, but Treinen gave up 5 unearned Runs, which is a lot to give up in less than 80 innings. When you add these to his inherited runners scored, he wanít so invincible as his numbers might make him seem.
    Trienen has given up 5 unearned runs this year in 3 appearances. He has a Blown save in all 3 games and both his losses. One was a 3 R HR he gave up to Ohtani back on 4/6 following a 2 run error by of all people Chapman that would have ended the inning and not allowed the inhereted runners to score.



    In games where he wasn't charged with unearned runs he has 2 blown saves all year.



    He has zero appearances where he was charged with more than 1 earned run.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  23. #23

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Canít blame the pitcher for a quick hook. Reguardless of how you feel about RBIs, It would be like saying betts shouldnít win mvp because he only has what? 80? If he hit where JD does, heíd obviously have a ton. Snell was unreal this year
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  24. #24

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    AL: Snell
    NL: Degrom

  25. #25

    Re: CY Young Conversation

    Quote Originally Posted by fightingirish595 View Post
    Canít blame the pitcher for a quick hook. Reguardless of how you feel about RBIs, It would be like saying betts shouldnít win mvp because he only has what? 80? If he hit where JD does, heíd obviously have a ton. Snell was unreal this year
    Who blamed Snell for his manager having a quick hook? Itís just that his stats have to be understood in light of that.

    Regardless, pitching more quality innings simply makes a pitcher more valuable to his team. Look how it shows up in Quality Starts where Snell had only 19 this year vs Verlander with 26.

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