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  1. #1
    Hope is eternal
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    Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Just flashed on my phone, will post link when available

    Link:

    https://twitter.com/msnbc/status/103...393598977?s=21
    Trading insults is a waste of time. Persuade why someone should see your point.

  2. #2

    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    RIP, Maverick. You made your country a better place.
    9 years to this day Ted Kennedy passed of the same brain cancer.
    Heaven needed another hero.
    The presidency doesn't change who you are. It reveals who you are. First Lady Michelle Obama (2015)

  3. #3
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    I have tons of mixed feelings on McCain. At the end of the day, though, all my frustrations and confusion about him aside, I'll miss his presence.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  4. #4
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    RIP McCain; even though he has, for decades, actively made not only America, but the world a worse place and was overall a terrible human being. We all die, respecting the dead doesn’t mean we have to place them on a pedestal and lionize them.

  5. #5
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by trapper700 View Post
    RIP McCain; even though he has, for decades, actively made not only America, but the world a worse place and was overall a terrible human being. We all die, respecting the dead doesn’t mean we have to place them on a pedestal and lionize them.
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  6. #6
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    To me it's kind of a big f’ing problem that everyone trips over themselves to lionize politicians when they die, irregardless of what conduct they held themselves while in office, just because of the this misguided idea that they deserve our respect for "serving" us. Like we owe them a modicum of grief.

    If you're a crappy person while living, you should be spoken of as having been a crappy person when you die. You want to be remembered fondly? Give people a reason to miss you. Easy peasy.

  7. #7
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by trapper700 View Post
    To me it's kind of a big f’ing problem that everyone trips over themselves to lionize politicians when they die, regardless of what conduct they held themselves while in office, just because of the this misguided idea that they deserve our respect for "serving" us. Like we owe them a modicum of grief.

    If you're a crappy person while living, you should be spoken of as having been a crappy person when you die. You want to be remembered fondly? Give people a reason to miss you. Easy peasy.
    There's some truth to this in general, though I don't think McCain is a great example of it. He did or fought for some significant good, he did a lot of bad, and he did it all with a temperament and dignity that I wish were more a part of today's political discourse. As I said, he often frustrated and baffled me, but I think there are reasons to miss him. I'd sign up for all 51 Republican Senators being like McCain in a second in today's climate.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  8. #8
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    There's some truth to this in general, though I don't think McCain is a great example of it. He did or fought for some significant good, he did a lot of bad, and he did it all with a temperament and dignity that I wish were more a part of today's political discourse. As I said, he often frustrated and baffled me, but I think there are reasons to miss him. I'd sign up for all 51 Republican Senators being like McCain in a second in today's climate.
    If the standard of comparison is "worse" rather than "good," he comes out well. His Vietnam heroism earns him a place of honor no matter what, but his political legacy would be much stronger if he had not sold it out to run for President.

    What you say about the present Senate is true, though there are a few who display an independent attitude while continuing to do bad things. Ben Sasse comes to mind as a latter-day McCain.

  9. #9
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    If the standard of comparison is "worse" rather than "good," he comes out well. His Vietnam heroism earns him a place of honor no matter what, but his political legacy would be much stronger if he had not sold it out to run for President.

    What you say about the present Senate is true, though there are a few who display an independent attitude while continuing to do bad things. Ben Sasse comes to mind as a latter-day McCain.
    At the same time, though, I think he gets credit for the things he did pre-Presidency run. That's part of his legacy, too. I think his legacy is ultimately mixed. There were places he was as bad as anyone in the Senate and places he showed courage uncommon to other politicians. Maybe I'm hopelessly naive, but I also ultimately think he cared at least a little bit more about what was actually right for the country than many others, though his conclusions about what was actually right were often very wrong. It could be debated, but I give more credit if someone supports the wrong thing because they genuinely believe it's right than someone who supports the same wrong thing fully knowing it's wrong. I don't think he's an easy person to break down.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  10. #10
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    At the same time, though, I think he gets credit for the things he did pre-Presidency run. That's part of his legacy, too. I think his legacy is ultimately mixed. There were places he was as bad as anyone in the Senate and places he showed courage uncommon to other politicians. Maybe I'm hopelessly naive, but I also ultimately think he cared at least a little bit more about what was actually right for the country than many others, though his conclusions about what was actually right were often very wrong. It could be debated, but I give more credit if someone supports the wrong thing because they genuinely believe it's right than someone who supports the same wrong thing fully knowing it's wrong. I don't think he's an easy person to break down.
    I definitely give him credit for his earlier dedication to campaign finance reform. Unfortunately, the net effect was for the Supremes to strike down any possibility of meaningful reform, ever. Also, that was one of the causes he sold out in 2008. But it was a good try.

  11. #11
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I definitely give him credit for his earlier dedication to campaign finance reform. Unfortunately, the net effect was for the Supremes to strike down any possibility of meaningful reform, ever. Also, that was one of the causes he sold out in 2008. But it was a good try.
    He did some good things standing up to the tobacco companies. I also think, though the effort ultimately failed, that he made a genuine and substantial effort to make progress on immigration. While his conduct during his 2008 run was generally poor, I do appreciate his willingness to defend Obama's character at certain junctures when remaining silent may have been politically expedient.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  12. #12
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    He did some good things standing up to the tobacco companies. I also think, though the effort ultimately failed, that he made a genuine and substantial effort to make progress on immigration. While his conduct during his 2008 run was generally poor, I do appreciate his willingness to defend Obama's character at certain junctures when remaining silent may have been politically expedient.
    Agree with all, except that:

    "He’s an Arab"
    "No, he’s a good family man, a citizen"

    while better than it might have been, also falls short of what it might have been.

  13. #13
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Agree with all, except that:

    "He’s an Arab"
    "No, he’s a good family man, a citizen"

    while better than it might have been, also falls short of what it might have been.
    Yes, point taken on that. While it can certainly easily be read that way, I like to think he meant it as a general defense of Obama, somewhat inarticulately stated, rather than an implication that Arabs can't be those things, though.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  14. #14
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Yes, point taken on that. While it can certainly easily be read that way, I like to think he meant it as a general defense of Obama, somewhat inarticulately stated, rather than an implication that Arabs can't be those things, though.
    Yes, he certainly stood up to the tide of populist ignorance on that one, it just never sounded quite as great to me as it was made out.

  15. #15
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Yes, he certainly stood up to the tide of populist ignorance on that one, it just never sounded quite as great to me as it was made out.
    No, it was unfortunately phrased in a way that could be taken to mean something bad. I kind of don't think that was the intent, though I don't know (I certainly don't think it was the primary intent--I think that was to defend Obama.) I think even when you're an experienced politician, when you're answering questions on the fly, especially a question like that, there are going to be times when you wish you could go back and rephrase. In the moment, I think he was essentially answering as if she had said Obama is a bad man, because that's certainly how SHE meant it. Of course a correction of her racism would have been better, though.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  16. #16
    Hope is eternal
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    I will always be thankful for the thumbs down last July.
    Trading insults is a waste of time. Persuade why someone should see your point.

  17. #17
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    He was a man of stark contradictions. On the one hand, in Vietnam he refused release from captivity until the POWs who were captured before him were let go. And then on the other, he held so much power, and used it to help the few. Oh and he was as warhawk-ish as they come. In short, his politics SUCKED. Then you get to how he opened Pandora’s Box by letting Palin join the ticket in 2008, playing his part in the catastrophic decline of the Republican Party.

    Rest in peace.
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  18. #18
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Here’s a shortlist of reasons why he doesn’t deserve my respect:

    - volunteered to drop napalm on civilians during the Vietnam war and was shot down while committing the war crime of dropping a bomb on a light bulb factory filled with civilians
    - Cheated on then divorced his disfigured dying wife (who waited for him while he was a POW) to marry his second, much richer, millionaire wife
    - Called his current wife a cunt in front of reporters
    - Was corrupt as f and was knee deep in the now-forgotten S&L scandal. He was one of the Keating Five and managed to skate on any possible charges.
    - Supported the Iraq War
    - Wanted to start a war with Iran
    - gave a platform to Sarah Palin, which additionally gave a platform to the even crazier side of the GOP
    -"Health of the Mother"
    - voted for all of Trump's cabinet nominees
    - voted for this awful tax bill
    - opposed making Martin Luther King Jr. Day a national holiday
    - defended using the racial slur “gook” and his reiterated his hatred for them
    - called Chelsea Clinton so ugly that she must have been fathered by Janet Reno when Reno was herself dying of a terminal disease
    - told people dying of cancer and begging for his help as senator of arizona to move out of arizona if they wanted to get access to healthcare
    - his last official act as a public servant was refusing to resign, despite being unable to work for almost a year, and trigger a special election, so that his Trump-supporting governor could handpick a Trump-supporting senator who'll serve as his replacement for two full years, taking the power out of the voters’ hands

  19. #19

    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    McCain had asked that the 2 men that defeated him in the presidential races give eulogies in DC(Bush43 and Obama.) VP Biden will speak at a service in Arizona. He'll be buried at the Naval Academy in Annapolis, MD.

    45* is not invited
    The presidency doesn't change who you are. It reveals who you are. First Lady Michelle Obama (2015)

  20. #20

    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Any official statement from the WH or just that simpering, little tweet?
    Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing. ~Arundhati Roy

  21. #21
    Hope is eternal
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Any official statement from the WH or just that simpering, little tweet?
    Yes, did not mention McCain at all nor his war service
    Trading insults is a waste of time. Persuade why someone should see your point.

  22. #22
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by trapper700 View Post
    Here’s a shortlist of reasons why he doesn’t deserve my respect:

    - volunteered to drop napalm on civilians during the Vietnam war and was shot down while committing the war crime of dropping a bomb on a light bulb factory filled with civilians
    I would suggest that if you know nothing about the American military, that you might be better served to remain silent.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  23. #23

    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I would suggest that if you know nothing about the American military, that you might be better served to remain silent.
    Just following orders?
    Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing. ~Arundhati Roy

  24. #24
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by trapper700 View Post
    RIP McCain; even though he has, for decades, actively made not only America, but the world a worse place and was overall a terrible human being. We all die, respecting the dead doesn’t mean we have to place them on a pedestal and lionize them.
    He kinda reminds me of Thatcher. Frequently, her name is held up as a banner for strong independent thinking but the UK is a considerably worse place because of her leadership.

    Quote Originally Posted by trapper700 View Post
    To me it's kind of a big f’ing problem that everyone trips over themselves to lionize politicians when they die, irregardless of what conduct they held themselves while in office, just because of the this misguided idea that they deserve our respect for "serving" us. Like we owe them a modicum of grief.

    If you're a crappy person while living, you should be spoken of as having been a crappy person when you die. You want to be remembered fondly? Give people a reason to miss you. Easy peasy.
    Indeed. Some years ago, I attended a funeral of someone mainly cos it was expected of me due to family commitments. I didn't know the person and everything anyone had ever told me about them was negative and unpleasant. They were not a nice or good person. For two days, people spoke about this person as if they'd always liked them, yet away from large groups, everyone acknowledged the person didn't deserve anyone to show up.

    (Now, I'll admit, I'm generally of the opinion that funerals etc are pointless concepts. I've made it very clear: once I'm dead, ship my organs off to people who can use them and send the rest of my corpse to a science lab. If it's of no use to anyone, they can burn it and pour the ashes in the garbage. No funeral, no ceremony. Now, I'm dead so I have no idea what is being done but if someone organizes a gathering, they better know I'd be pissed off that they're wasting people's actual lives over a dead person.)

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    If the standard of comparison is "worse" rather than "good," he comes out well. His Vietnam heroism earns him a place of honor no matter what, but his political legacy would be much stronger if he had not sold it out to run for President.

    What you say about the present Senate is true, though there are a few who display an independent attitude while continuing to do bad things. Ben Sasse comes to mind as a latter-day McCain.
    McCain looked good the last couple of years because he was being compared to the worst of people. He should be the right wing contingent of the GOP in a modern world, not the semi-moderate.

    Ben Sasse is loved by the NRA, wants abortion banned, doesn't want people to be able to get health care, and is against gay marriage. Didn't he also vote against a package to help drug addicts? He's independent in a way that has no place in the 21st century.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  25. #25
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Arizona senator John McCain has died

    Quote Originally Posted by trapper700 View Post
    Here’s a shortlist of reasons why he doesn’t deserve my respect:

    - volunteered to drop napalm on civilians during the Vietnam war and was shot down while committing the war crime of dropping a bomb on a light bulb factory filled with civilians
    - Cheated on then divorced his disfigured dying wife (who waited for him while he was a POW) to marry his second, much richer, millionaire wife
    - Called his current wife a cunt in front of reporters
    - Was corrupt as f and was knee deep in the now-forgotten S&L scandal. He was one of the Keating Five and managed to skate on any possible charges.
    - Supported the Iraq War
    - Wanted to start a war with Iran
    - gave a platform to Sarah Palin, which additionally gave a platform to the even crazier side of the GOP
    -"Health of the Mother"
    - voted for all of Trump's cabinet nominees
    - voted for this awful tax bill
    - opposed making Martin Luther King Jr. Day a national holiday
    - defended using the racial slur “gook” and his reiterated his hatred for them
    - called Chelsea Clinton so ugly that she must have been fathered by Janet Reno when Reno was herself dying of a terminal disease
    - told people dying of cancer and begging for his help as senator of arizona to move out of arizona if they wanted to get access to healthcare
    - his last official act as a public servant was refusing to resign, despite being unable to work for almost a year, and trigger a special election, so that his Trump-supporting governor could handpick a Trump-supporting senator who'll serve as his replacement for two full years, taking the power out of the voters’ hands
    Yup, not exactly a list of things you want to be written about you. Just one or two those makes your character suspect.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

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