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  1. #26
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob035 View Post
    And yes we get more expensive. We've cut pennies to get to this point, but now we are a couple of pieces away from establishing a new dynasty, so we better go for it. Despite the harsh punishments, I will be pissed off if Hal says we can't afford that.
    Are Harper and/or Machado those pieces? Do we need either of them to establish that new dynasty? Or, are Andujar, Didi, Torres, Bird, Sanchez, Stanton, Judge, and maybe Florial enough?

    It's not that "we can't afford that." It's a question of whether we NEED to afford them. I'd contend we don't. Not even a little. But, a front of the rotation starter is a different story altogether. That's a place where there's an actual need, and the investment could/would pay off almost immediately.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  2. #27
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by smckdwn989 View Post
    The point of resetting the tax was because right now the Yankees are taxed at a 50% clip. Whether or not they plan to exceed it again is another argument but it would "only" be 20%.
    This statement is incomplete - it would "only be 20%" in the first year and, in addition, other penalties MAY (emphasize MAY) apply. Again, what I posted above from mlb.com:

    A club exceeding the Competitive Balance Tax threshold for the first time must pay a 20 percent tax on all overages. A club exceeding the threshold for a second consecutive season will see that figure rise to 30 percent, and three or more straight seasons of exceeding the threshold comes with a 50 percent luxury tax. If a club dips below the luxury tax threshold for a season, the penalty level is reset. So, a club that exceeds the threshold for two straight seasons but then drops below that level would be back at 20 percent the next time it exceeds the threshold.

    Clubs that exceed the threshold by $20 million to $40 million are also subject to a 12 percent surtax. Meanwhile, those who exceed it by more than $40 million are taxed at a 42.5 percent rate the first time and a 45 percent rate if they exceed it by more than $40 million again the following year(s).

    Beginning in 2018, clubs that are $40 million or more above the threshold shall have their highest selection in the next Rule 4 Draft moved back 10 places unless the pick falls in the top six. In that case, the team will have its second-highest selection moved back 10 places instead.
    So, depending on how far beyond the tax we go and for how many years, the impact could be much, much higher.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  3. #28

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    It's not that "we can't afford that." It's a question of whether we NEED to afford them. I'd contend we don't. Not even a little. But, a front of the rotation starter is a different story altogether. That's a place where there's an actual need, and the investment could/would pay off almost immediately.
    People keep saying this, and you might be right, but it's also worth noting that the postseason streak last year was because of great pitching, and the current 15-1 streak has also been primarily because of great pitching. Gleyber's addition has helped the pitchers a lot, they just said on MLBN that NY went from the 29th ranked infield to a top 5 one since he's been up.

    Also our farm system is flooded right now with arms with high-ceiling potential, so that's a factor too.

  4. #29

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Are Harper and/or Machado those pieces? Do we need either of them to establish that new dynasty? Or, are Andujar, Didi, Torres, Bird, Sanchez, Stanton, Judge, and maybe Florial enough?

    It's not that "we can't afford that." It's a question of whether we NEED to afford them. I'd contend we don't. Not even a little. But, a front of the rotation starter is a different story altogether. That's a place where there's an actual need, and the investment could/would pay off almost immediately.
    It's not that "we can afford that", it's that the Yankees and ownership won't commit to paying 700M+ into three players in the starting lineup for the next 10+ seasons when they have plenty of cheap homegrown talent that can get the job done at a fraction of the cost. And that cost doesn't even take into acount the pitching staff.

  5. #30

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Are Harper and/or Machado those pieces? Do we need either of them to establish that new dynasty? Or, are Andujar, Didi, Torres, Bird, Sanchez, Stanton, Judge, and maybe Florial enough?

    It's not that "we can't afford that." It's a question of whether we NEED to afford them. I'd contend we don't. Not even a little. But, a front of the rotation starter is a different story altogether. That's a place where there's an actual need, and the investment could/would pay off almost immediately.
    But that's my whole point. To get that front of the rotation starter, we will likely need to part with some combination of Andujar, Frazier, Bird, Florial, and even Torres. The reason I'm okay with trading a few of those guys away is that we can easily replace their offense with Machado/Harper and not skip a beat.

    Unless you see a FA top of the rotation SP? Corbin is the only possibility I see, but he still has a ton to prove before I'd be comfortable committing a chunk of money to him.

  6. #31

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Are Harper and/or Machado those pieces? Do we need either of them to establish that new dynasty? Or, are Andujar, Didi, Torres, Bird, Sanchez, Stanton, Judge, and maybe Florial enough?

    It's not that "we can't afford that." It's a question of whether we NEED to afford them. I'd contend we don't. Not even a little. But, a front of the rotation starter is a different story altogether. That's a place where there's an actual need, and the investment could/would pay off almost immediately.
    Well I definitely don’t think it’s a need situation it’s about opportunity. Young elite FAs like Harper and even Machado historically are only available once in a decade or so. The last time was ARod when he signed with Texas. So there’s an argument that if you spend now to avoid spending on lesser and/or older players later.

    And then when you look at the pitchers available no one really jumps off the page, maybe Corbin.

    I’d like to see the Yankees do work after the deadline to lockup their own long term first and if the money allows take advantage of a good FA market and hopefully they won’t need to spend for a long time after this.

  7. #32

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by jon abbey View Post
    Yeah, I think they will sign Harper and Corbin as of now, but it's a long way until the winter still.
    Dream off-season for me. Probably need to work in some pen arms somewhere, but these should be the two headliners.

  8. #33
    Left-Handed Catcher
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    I would say no on both Machado and Harper. The young core needs to be locked in (Didi, then a queue of Sanchez, Judge, Severino, etc...)

    Pitching is a necessity. Iíd go after Corbin hard this offseason, then put guys like Montgomery, Clint Frazier, Sonny Gray, Brandon Drury, and a high-level prospect on the block and see if the Mariners will deal James Paxton.

    So a pitching staff of: Severino, Corbin, Tanaka, Paxton and German/Sheffield. Is that not an FU pitching staff or what?

    The lack of Harper would leave an OF spot open for an Ellsbury return (Because heís not going to get the Carl Crawford treatment no matter how much he deserves it.) or Billy McKinney to get a long look in the bigs. Either one keeps the seat warm for Florial in 2020-21.

    Now sure Manny is a stud among studs, but offense isnít a high priority with this team as itís constructed, plus it makes the lineup very right-heavy. Thereís a better way to allocate resources than to bust the long-term vision.

    Hopefully Bird comes back strong and healthy. Fingers crossed.

  9. #34

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Maybe not Machado at this point, but I can see going after Harper.

  10. #35
    Administrator Bub's Avatar
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Benefactor View Post
    It's not that "we can afford that", it's that the Yankees and ownership won't commit to paying 700M+ into three players in the starting lineup for the next 10+ seasons when they have plenty of cheap homegrown talent that can get the job done at a fraction of the cost. And that cost doesn't even take into acount the pitching staff.
    That's going to happen anyway. Unless they trade away some top talent they're going to soon be paying big bucks to:
    Sanchez
    Didi
    Judge
    Stanton

    Then probably to Torres.
    And Severino is going to demand a huge salary.
    Let the kids play.

  11. #36
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    That's going to happen anyway. Unless they trade away some top talent they're going to soon be paying big bucks to:
    Sanchez
    Didi
    Judge
    Stanton

    Then probably to Torres.
    And Severino is going to demand a huge salary.
    The problem with this argument is that, with the exception of Stanton, none of these players is going to demand a $300M to $400M number when they sign.

    Of the ones you list, the only one who is an immediate (this off-season) signing issue is Didi. The remainder have not yet even entered Arbitration, although Judge & Sanchez might make super two this coming off-season.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  12. #37
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    I want nothing to do with Machado....If he is gonna demand 10 years and $200+ million no thanks, he is an immature hot-head and we don't need that distraction.

    I like the idea of moving Andujar to 1B but in reality we should give Stanton reps at 1B since long term it will benefit us if Bird goes down again
    The real reason why the Yankees keep winning is cause the other team can't stop staring at the damn pinstripes

  13. #38

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Andujar is starting to come back down to earth. So noway in my opinion. I just hope he can stay over his head long enough to bring something back. Bird is miles ahead of him if he can stay on the field. But Andujar as a 1b? I believe the 3b opinion we have is great if he can get back on the field in Drury who i think is way better then Andujar so in short no way.

  14. #39

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by jeterrules View Post
    Andujar is starting to come back down to earth. So noway in my opinion. I just hope he can stay over his head long enough to bring something back. Bird is miles ahead of him if he can stay on the field. But Andujar as a 1b? I believe the 3b opinion we have is great if he can get back on the field in Drury who i think is way better then Andujar so in short no way.
    Lol...

  15. #40

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Forever, there is this idea that you can just move someone to 1st whenever you need to. Sometimes, it can work but many more times, fanciful would be a kind term to describe the effort.

    If they sign Manny, it doubt it would have any impact on Bird.

    I'm not in the spend big on a pitcher crowd though. I like the idea of looking for those guys who are a couple years from free agency and on teams that aren't contending.
    Like Gerrit Cole...Sonny Gray etc. That combined with internal development and 1 year veterans.

  16. #41
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by b_joseph View Post
    Forever, there is this idea that you can just move someone to 1st whenever you need to. Sometimes, it can work but many more times, fanciful would be a kind term to describe the effort.
    That holds if you're trying to fit a relatively unathletic, often aging player into that slot, a la the abortive Brian McCann experiment a few years ago. Or the Mets' early-2000s Mike Piazza to first tragicomedy.

    If we presuppose Andujar is the real deal as a hitter, would be surprised if he couldn't adapt to first with some dedication to improvement.

    (This does NOT mean I am giving up on Bird or want to sign Machado, I am doing neither.)

  17. #42

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Passing on Harper would be stupid. When a young generational talent like that hits the market, you make him say no to you, not the other way around.

    We will have enough money to sign the other guys when the time comes. There will be a new CBA by the time we have to pay Judge, Sanchez, Severino, and Torres. After this terrible free agent market the players just went through, MLBPA will probably get the luxury tax threshold raised to $240M+ or even abolished altogether via a strike when time comes for a new CBA. We can always try to extend some of our young players this offseason on team friendly extensions. Didi is probably only one of our current guys that we have to sign to a long term deal in the immediate future. I dont see him surpassing $20M AAV unless he hits like he did in April for the rest of the year. Sure some of these players will be getting substantial pay raises during later arb years, but I dont see it being a crippling issue where we have no payroll flexibility.
    Let's Go Yankees!

  18. #43

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by HelloNewman View Post

    If we presuppose Andujar is the real deal as a hitter, would be surprised if he couldn't adapt to first with some dedication to improvement.
    Maybe but it's not a given that he would. If we were to move anyone on our team to first, I would look to one of the giants we have in the outfield.

    Bird is cheap for quite a while...fortunately, we can keep him with minimal fuss. As it would be quite different if he was making 15m+ per.

  19. #44
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Pakimobzta View Post
    Passing on Harper would be stupid. When a young generational talent like that hits the market, you make him say no to you, not the other way around.

    We will have enough money to sign the other guys when the time comes. There will be a new CBA by the time we have to pay Judge, Sanchez, Severino, and Torres. After this terrible free agent market the players just went through, MLBPA will probably get the luxury tax threshold raised to $240M+ or even abolished altogether via a strike when time comes for a new CBA. We can always try to extend some of our young players this offseason on team friendly extensions. Didi is probably only one of our current guys that we have to sign to a long term deal in the immediate future. I dont see him surpassing $20M AAV unless he hits like he did in April for the rest of the year. Sure some of these players will be getting substantial pay raises during later arb years, but I dont see it being a crippling issue where we have no payroll flexibility.
    Agreed with all of this. Let Gardner walk and sign Bryce. There are no pitchers Iíd spend big on in this FA class.

  20. #45
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    We do not need more HR hitters who strike out in excess of 100 x a year.. If and only if we need more offense I'd rather go for hitters like Gardner was in his prime, like Torres , torreyes to be.


    But what I would rather spend money on are starting pitchers with a future, either through free agency or trades. We are stocked in the minors and I would be willing to give prospects and money for the right young starter.. No to Muchado and or Harper. We don't need them.


    That was Steinbrenners downfall always going after big offensive stars and he rarely had success. We didn't start being successful till stick took over
    Manchado and Harper only makes sense if you want to set a ML record for strikeouts and have a losing season


    Andy
    Yogi is a National Treasure. Let's put him in a National Hall of Fame. The man has no peers.

  21. #46
    2009 WORLD CHAMPIONS aeromac76's Avatar
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    First off, I agree with many here that the priority should be starting pitching. But the question is where do we get it?
    Clayton Kershaw can opt out, we know that. But he is not having his best year and is now hurt. Given the last offseason's austerity, there is no guarantee he does opt out to become a FA, and perhaps the odds are now better he does not! But let's say he does, we are now talking about the largest contract for a pitcher ever. Do we want to wade into that pool?
    If not Kershaw, then Corbin? Having a great year and is awfully interesting, but his track record is far shorter. Are we seeing the real Corbin now?
    Trades are always possibilities, but we know teams will want to kill us in deals, it's as if they are doing us a favor by sending us their back end of the rotation 5 ERA guy for Andujar and Torres. It's tough to get a front end guy through trade without it really hurting.

    In short, while not the optimal need, the best way to improve the team might be to add a guy like Harper, stick with the current rotation with maybe some additions from our own system, and just threaten to beat the crap out of everyone on offense. We have our ace, Tanaka is a capable number 2, Gray looks to be turning things around and would be a capable middle rotation guy. Assuming Monty is not headed for the operating table and he recovers , he looks like a nice rotation piece for years to come. And we have some hot arms that could make a play, like German, Sheffield and Abreu. Give me a rotation like that, a lockdown pen, and an offense which just terrifies people, and I'll take my chances..
    I used to think I was crazy... Now I am sure of it..

  22. #47

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by Brooklyn Yankee Fan View Post
    If this isn't in the right section, my bad

    Thread title is the topic at hand. Stole the idea from a poster on another forum I frequent.

    If the Yanks were to sign Manny - who would be willing to move back to 3B - and they feel inclined to keep Andujar, would you be willing to part ways with Bird and have Miguel man 1B?
    We don't need Manny and what's going to be a huge contract when we have guys doing the job on the cheap. It's overkill!


    BTW - You will be Tarred and Feathered here!
    People don't start playing ball at your age, they retire!

  23. #48
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by b_joseph View Post
    Maybe but it's not a given that he would.
    Of course. Nothing is given in baseball or anywhere else. I'm saying Andujar profiles as a guy who has a good chance of transitioning defensively. But then you said ....

    Quote Originally Posted by b_joseph View Post
    Forever, there is this idea that you can just move someone to 1st whenever you need to.
    and then --

    Quote Originally Posted by b_joseph View Post
    If we were to move anyone on our team to first, I would look to one of the giants we have in the outfield.
    what about Stanton or Judge says 1st base to you? They're tall? Yikes. Judge MAYBE. Stanton no thanks, he's already barely on the good side of the defensive spectrum vis a vis 1B now.

    Quote Originally Posted by b_joseph View Post
    Bird is cheap for quite a while...fortunately, we can keep him with minimal fuss. As it would be quite different if he was making 15m+ per.
    I was clear that I'm not giving up on Bird just yet.

  24. #49

    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by HelloNewman View Post
    Of course. Nothing is given in baseball or anywhere else. I'm saying Andujar profiles as a guy who has a good chance of transitioning defensively. But then you said ....

    and then --

    what about Stanton or Judge says 1st base to you? They're tall? Yikes. Judge MAYBE. Stanton no thanks, he's already barely on the good side of the defensive spectrum vis a vis 1B now.
    I was clear that I'm not giving up on Bird just yet.
    I wouldn't move them. What I meant was, if we absolutely had to move someone from their position to 1st base. I would start with trying one of those two.
    Their bats are great enough that you could deal with 1st base issues, more so than Andujar who likely won't hit the way that Judge and Stanton do.
    So, if they all went through similar defensive issues, its easy to select which one I would move. All the while, not wanting to move any of them because it's unlikely they would be anything but butchers.

    The Bird part was a general comment. Not aimed at you.

  25. #50
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    Re: Embrace debate: Sign Machado, move Andujar to 1B, adios Bird

    Quote Originally Posted by b_joseph View Post
    I wouldn't move them. What I meant was, if we absolutely had to move someone from their position to 1st base. I would start with trying one of those two.
    Their bats are great enough that you could deal with 1st base issues, more so than Andujar who likely won't hit the way that Judge and Stanton do.
    So, if they all went through similar defensive issues, its easy to select which one I would move. All the while, not wanting to move any of them because it's unlikely they would be anything but butchers.

    The Bird part was a general comment. Not aimed at you.
    OK gotcha

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