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  1. #2026
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    Chance Adams went from 66th to unranked in the latest Pipeline Top-100 update.
    His trade value right now would seem to be "throw in reclaimation project"
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  2. #2027

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Add Torres and Alderson might not hang up.
    Torres is not getting moved straight up for deGrom. Tbh, we're not getting deGrom or Thor--Mets won't trade either to us. I just hope they don't trade either to a rival.

  3. #2028

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    Chance Adams went from 66th to unranked in the latest Pipeline Top-100 update.
    Time to move him to the pen. He could be a multi-inning weapon as soon as this year. Could come in handy in the playoffs especially if the playoffs teams don't see him until the playoffs.

  4. #2029

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by albo4lyfe View Post
    Of course that's a massive overpay. Look at what Sale fetched. Now compare Sale and DeGrom--no comparison. In pure baseball sense, that's a big overpay. Since it's Yanks-Mets, who knows--that may not be enough for the Mets.
    Degrom is doing things Sale didnt do this season.

    Sale had a career ERA over 3 the time the RS traded for him. The RS traded 2 top 20 prospects, one being the #1 prospect. The other a long lengthy young lefty pitcher who can hit his FB high 90s. Then 2 throw decent throw ins.

    Degrom has a career ERA of 2.80 right now. And 1.51 ERA this season. He also has a few LESS seasons on his arm. He may be a couple years older, but all you are doing is trading for the 2.5 years of control, much like Sale. I think in those 2.5 years he gives you his peak. I dont think its much of an overpay to be honest. Like I said, I dont wan to lose those bats, but how bad does it really hurt the Yankees right now?
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  5. #2030
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by albo4lyfe View Post
    Time to move him to the pen. He could be a multi-inning weapon as soon as this year. Could come in handy in the playoffs especially if the playoffs teams don't see him until the playoffs.
    Agreed. The jig is up. Time to convert and stop pretending.
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  6. #2031

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    Degrom is doing things Sale didnt do this season.

    Sale had a career ERA over 3 the time the RS traded for him. The RS traded 2 top 20 prospects, one being the #1 prospect. The other a long lengthy young lefty pitcher who can hit his FB high 90s. Then 2 throw decent throw ins.

    Degrom has a career ERA of 2.80 right now. And 1.51 ERA this season. He also has a few LESS seasons on his arm. He may be a couple years older, but all you are doing is trading for the 2.5 years of control, much like Sale. I think in those 2.5 years he gives you his peak. I dont think its much of an overpay to be honest. Like I said, I dont wan to lose those bats, but how bad does it really hurt the Yankees right now?
    Sale pitched in the AL in a bandbox at white Sox park. He's also lefty and greater likelihood of sustained success when velo starts declining.

  7. #2032

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by poneil2321 View Post
    Sale pitched in the AL in a bandbox at white Sox park. He's also lefty and greater likelihood of sustained success when velo starts declining.
    All true, but his balky delivery might test that elbow early. I'm just pointing out that Degrom IS in the same category of Sale right now. Giving up the #1 prospect and a legit pitching prospect for Sale would be like us giving up Torres and Sheffield easy. The probably a Frazier or Florial.
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  8. #2033
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by poneil2321 View Post
    Sale pitched in the AL in a bandbox at white Sox park. He's also lefty and greater likelihood of sustained success when velo starts declining.
    Which is really easy to quantify in this discussion with something like ERA+, and it shows that this season is an outlier in deGrom's career so far. Sale's durability in combination with his dominance in the AL is unquestionably a better package than deGrom's at the respective times of their potential deals.

    And I think deGrom would be a great acquisition and am willing to overpay in high-end prospects.
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  9. #2034
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    All true, but his balky delivery might test that elbow early. I'm just pointing out that Degrom IS in the same category of Sale right now. Giving up the #1 prospect and a legit pitching prospect for Sale would be like us giving up Torres and Sheffield easy. The probably a Frazier or Florial.
    No, it's nothing like that at all. Not even remotely close. You've repeated this over the past few weeks despite it being thoroughly disproven.

    There is zero equivalency between Moncada and Torres in terms of trade value.
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  10. #2035
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Wait, Guaranteed Rate Field is a "bandbox"?

  11. #2036

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    No, it's nothing like that at all. Not even remotely close. You've repeated this over the past few weeks despite it being thoroughly disproven.

    There is zero equivalency between Moncada and Torres in terms of trade value.
    Who are you saying held more value as a prospect? Moncada or Torres?

    Just curious, how was it disproven as you say?

    Im pretty sure top 5 middle infield prospects are pretty close in value... I thought so anyways.

    After a few months in the Bigs though, obviously Torres has been sky rocketing while Moncada's value is plummeting.
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  12. #2037

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BabyBombers View Post
    Who are you saying held more value as a prospect? Moncada or Torres?

    Just curious, how was it disproven as you say?

    Im pretty sure top 5 middle infield prospects are pretty close in value... I thought so anyways.

    After a few months in the Bigs though, obviously Torres has been sky rocketing while Moncada's value is plummeting.
    I think that's the key. What Torres is doing right now is something Moncada hasn't done at all in the majors.

    If this was last year, I think a Torres/Sheffield deal would line up with a Moncada/Kopech deal, but right now, Torres has much more value than Moncada did in the Sale deal.

  13. #2038
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanks12009 View Post
    If this was last year, I think a Torres/Sheffield deal would line up with a Moncada/Kopech deal, but right now, Torres has much more value than Moncada did in the Sale deal.
    Yes, last year at this time a Torres/Sheffield deal is in the same ballpark as the Sox offer, but actually would have been LESS and the Sox offer would have still won out.

    The key here is that when truly elite position players - top 5-10 prospects in all of baseball - get to the upper levels they're almost never traded. If they take the next step and get to the Majors without simply looking overmatched - let alone completely MASHING - they're quite literally untouchable. They become above the market. We're talking above the market to the point that I'm 100% vertain even the Mets understand there's no way they're getting Torres, despite what they're feeding the media via back channels.

    I've brought it up in these discussion before, but I'll repeat it again here: Andrew Benintendi was actually ranked above Moncada after midseason updates, but regardless they were technically very close in any prospect rankings. However, Benintendi came up to the Majors in 2016 and was producing, and because of that the Red Sox told the White Sox that Benintendi was off-limits. Moncada, the "#1 prospect in baseball" was on the table, but Benintendi was completely untouchable - even in negotiations for a guy considered to be in the conversation for best pitcher in baseball on a team friendly deal.

    In 2014 Mookie Betts was off the table for Hamels
    In 2016 Trea Turner was off the table for Sale
    In 2016 Dansby Swanson was off the table for Sale

    Those were the ones that came to my head a few days ago, and I'm sure you can find many more, but he point is once these guys hit the ML level and produce they become above the market, if you will. This has nothing to do with how much I like the players being discussed or anything, this is simply looking at history and how FOs react to having a player they see on a potential All-Star trajectory already in the Majors. Those guys do not get moved for anything less than a crazy return on the extremely rare occasion that they're even dealt, meaning THEY are going to be bring back something major all by themselves, a la Montero/Pineda.

    With that said, Cashman has an extremely unique situation with Andujar - he's got a guy he loves waiting in AAA right behind Miguel, so there's a strange ability to move him if it goes there. However Miguel Andujar's trade value at this point is absolutely enormous. He simply does not have "prospect value", he is in a group of players that is normally too valuable to even consider moving...but because of Drury it's at least a consideration to try and cash in on that incredible capital. To put it in perspective, Andujar at this point has considerably more value than Moncada did at the time of the Sale trade, and that is not a personal opinion based on any affinity for the Yankees/Miguel - my apathy towards him is well documented here - but Andujar is raking with power at the ML level, the end. Moncada, for all the fanfare, had well-documented flaws that everyone acknowledged might prevent him from ever reaching what Andujar has already done in less than a half season. That creates the massive chasm in value between "elite prospect" to "young Major League regular showing All-Star potential".
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  14. #2039

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanks12009 View Post
    I think that's the key. What Torres is doing right now is something Moncada hasn't done at all in the majors.

    If this was last year, I think a Torres/Sheffield deal would line up with a Moncada/Kopech deal, but right now, Torres has much more value than Moncada did in the Sale deal.
    All this. Moncada hadn't proven anything in the majors when he was dealt. Torres' value has skyrocketed with his early showing in the majors.

    Also, let's just admit it... Sale had much more value when he was dealt than deGrom has now. Younger, lefty, better, more durable, higher upside, more control.

  15. #2040
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by albo4lyfe View Post
    Time to move him to the pen. He could be a multi-inning weapon as soon as this year. Could come in handy in the playoffs especially if the playoffs teams don't see him until the playoffs.
    Agreed..... seemed to help Sevy going to the pen for a short amount of time .
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  16. #2041

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by albo4lyfe View Post
    All this. Moncada hadn't proven anything in the majors when he was dealt. Torres' value has skyrocketed with his early showing in the majors.

    Also, let's just admit it... Sale had much more value when he was dealt than deGrom has now. Younger, lefty, better, more durable, higher upside, more control.



    Yeah that was a trade i never understood why the yankees were not in on it.

  17. #2042

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jeterrules View Post
    Yeah that was a trade i never understood why the yankees were not in on it.
    Our top chips at the time were what is the core of our team now (Severino, Judge, Sanchez). Don't think the White Sox would've accepted the pieces we dealt for Gray.

  18. #2043

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by primetime714 View Post
    Our top chips at the time were what is the core of our team now (Severino, Judge, Sanchez). Don't think the White Sox would've accepted the pieces we dealt for Gray.
    That's hindsight saying those three were our top chips. Sanchez was absolutely our top chip. But after him it was likely Frazier, Torres, Rutherford, and Mateo. Severino was coming off of a terrible year. There were a ton of questions surrounding whether Judge would get exposed by MLB breaking balls after strike out 45% of the time in his big league cameo.

    I could easily see an offer of Sanchez + Frazier + Mateo topping the Red Sox's package. But at the time, I would've thought that was a big mistake because we didn't seem ready to compete.

  19. #2044

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob035 View Post
    That's hindsight saying those three were our top chips. Sanchez was absolutely our top chip. But after him it was likely Frazier, Torres, Rutherford, and Mateo. Severino was coming off of a terrible year. There were a ton of questions surrounding whether Judge would get exposed by MLB breaking balls after strike out 45% of the time in his big league cameo.

    I could easily see an offer of Sanchez + Frazier + Mateo topping the Red Sox's package. But at the time, I would've thought that was a big mistake because we didn't seem ready to compete.
    That's the point though, trading Sanchez would've been a mistake especially with where the team was at the time. It's a trade that would've been both bad in hindsight and foresight. There was no realistic trade both at the time and in hindsight that would've been a good trade for the Yankees and trumped Boston's offer and that's even if they loved our guys more than Moncada.

  20. #2045

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by primetime714 View Post
    That's the point though, trading Sanchez would've been a mistake especially with where the team was at the time. It's a trade that would've been both bad in hindsight and foresight. There was no realistic trade both at the time and in hindsight that would've been a good trade for the Yankees and trumped Boston's offer and that's even if they loved our guys more than Moncada.
    Complete agreement there. It would have made no sense to trade Sanchez+ for Sale or even to trade Frazier, Torres, Mateo and Rutherford for him.

    Most people still thought we were a year or two from being a contender at that time. That's not when you push your chips in. However.... now seems like the perfect time to do so.

  21. #2046
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Speaking of Rutherford, hes posting an .806 OPS in high A ball this year. Nice to see him bouncing back even though hes no longer in our system.
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  22. #2047
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob035 View Post
    That's hindsight saying those three were our top chips. Sanchez was absolutely our top chip. But after him it was likely Frazier, Torres, Rutherford, and Mateo. Severino was coming off of a terrible year. There were a ton of questions surrounding whether Judge would get exposed by MLB breaking balls after strike out 45% of the time in his big league cameo.

    I could easily see an offer of Sanchez + Frazier + Mateo topping the Red Sox's package. But at the time, I would've thought that was a big mistake because we didn't seem ready to compete.
    You're right about the top chips thing, but that furthers the point that it's very likely one of Judge/Severino would have qualified as a TERTIARY piece.

    Sanchez is off the table in this conversation for the same reasons I've been saying Torres and even Andujar are off the table now (and why Benintendi, Turner, and Swanson were off the table at the time as well) - they're too valuable once they get to the ML level and show an inkling of All-Star ability (let alone set HR records from the middle of the diamond).

    At the end of 2016 when Sale was dealt, Moncada was a top-3 prospect and Kopech was a top-30 guy. Frazier was 20ish and Torres had caught some helium into the teens. Sheffield was in the 70s. Even if you use a best case of Frazier and Sheffield as the base that's still a ton of prospect capital ground to make up to equal Moncada and Kopech - and that's before even considering a solid third guy like Basabe being in the deal.

    The third piece in the deal from the Yankees would have had to be a significant prospect, but one outside of the top remaining chips you correctly note as Sanchez, Torres, and Rutherford (but not Mateo, he had already dropped like a rock into the back of the top-100 because of his 2016). Which brings us to the question mark/reclamation class topped by Judge/Severino.

    I cannot see a probable way the Yankees could have acquired Sale at the time without including at least one of Torres, Judge, or Severino. Not because they were the three top chips, but because they were perfectly scattered throughout the value landscape at the time and all had very intriguing upside.
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  23. #2048

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanks12009 View Post
    I think that's the key. What Torres is doing right now is something Moncada hasn't done at all in the majors.

    If this was last year, I think a Torres/Sheffield deal would line up with a Moncada/Kopech deal, but right now, Torres has much more value than Moncada did in the Sale deal.
    Absolutely. 100%
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  24. #2049

    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    You're right about the top chips thing, but that furthers the point that it's very likely one of Judge/Severino would have qualified as a TERTIARY piece.

    Sanchez is off the table in this conversation for the same reasons I've been saying Torres and even Andujar are off the table now (and why Benintendi, Turner, and Swanson were off the table at the time as well) - they're too valuable once they get to the ML level and show an inkling of All-Star ability (let alone set HR records from the middle of the diamond).

    At the end of 2016 when Sale was dealt, Moncada was a top-3 prospect and Kopech was a top-30 guy. Frazier was 20ish and Torres had caught some helium into the teens. Sheffield was in the 70s. Even if you use a best case of Frazier and Sheffield as the base that's still a ton of prospect capital ground to make up to equal Moncada and Kopech - and that's before even considering a solid third guy like Basabe being in the deal.

    The third piece in the deal from the Yankees would have had to be a significant prospect, but one outside of the top remaining chips you correctly note as Sanchez, Torres, and Rutherford (but not Mateo, he had already dropped like a rock into the back of the top-100 because of his 2016). Which brings us to the question mark/reclamation class topped by Judge/Severino.

    I cannot see a probable way the Yankees could have acquired Sale at the time without including at least one of Torres, Judge, or Severino. Not because they were the three top chips, but because they were perfectly scattered throughout the value landscape at the time and all had very intriguing upside.
    Okay let's take Sanchez off the board because you're right. At the time he was not being traded for anything. To top the Red Sox package, it's very likely that Torres, Judge, or Severino would have been in the deal.

    But it's not impossible. Let's just say Cash used his crystal ball and made the absolute perfect offer in retrospect, say Frazier + Rutherford + Mateo + Sheffield + Kap. That's two top 50 guys, another two top 100, and one in the 100-150. It's possible the sox could have preferred that offer and we could have come out ahead in the deal.

    My point is that it still would have been no sense whatsoever at the time. Nobody expected us to have the 2017 season we did. We were forming our young core but it was assumed that the team needed another year or two. That's the type of trade you make when you're one piece from being WS favorites.

  25. #2050
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    Re: 2018 Trade Deadline Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob035 View Post
    Okay let's take Sanchez off the board because you're right. At the time he was not being traded for anything. To top the Red Sox package, it's very likely that Torres, Judge, or Severino would have been in the deal.

    But it's not impossible. Let's just say Cash used his crystal ball and made the absolute perfect offer in retrospect, say Frazier + Rutherford + Mateo + Sheffield + Kap. That's two top 50 guys, another two top 100, and one in the 100-150. It's possible the sox could have preferred that offer and we could have come out ahead in the deal.

    My point is that it still would have been no sense whatsoever at the time. Nobody expected us to have the 2017 season we did. We were forming our young core but it was assumed that the team needed another year or two. That's the type of trade you make when you're one piece from being WS favorites.
    I totally agree with you on all of this, with the addition that there's no way that the White Sox take the Moncada/Kopech package over the one you listed.

    It didn't make sense to try and top the considerable Red Sox package that Olney reported at the time had execs calling an overpay even though they got huge value in Sale. My point in this whole hypothetical discussion of whether or not they should have been in on Sale in 2016 is the idea that it would have been really, really, REALLY difficult to navigate the avoidance of including at least one of Torres, Judge, or Severino when you consider their values at the time. It's possible, but topping the Red Sox offer without any of those three seems highly unlikely without the benefit of the crystal ball you introduced.

    That deads the whole conversation to me personally, before we even get into the philsophical questions about whether or not it was the right time for such a move (and I agree with you that it wasn't the right time).
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