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  1. #251
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    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by nyyankees72 View Post
    Forget cole then with pirates ransom demands.
    I mean that’s generally the way it goes with trade negotiations. Cashman asked about King Felix before the deal for Pineda materialized. He asked Theo for Schwarber, who was off limits, and ended up with Torres+. I don’t blame the Pirates for asking for Torres but they’re definitely not getting him.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  2. #252
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    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    The fact that multiple analysts have indicated that PIT may not accept a Frazier/Adams package means that we should be satisfied to surrender only that. Everyone please take a deep breath and stop prospect hugging lol
    On the other hand, you have different fingers.


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  3. #253

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    I mean that’s generally the way it goes with trade negotiations. Cashman asked about King Felix before the deal for Pineda materialized. He asked Theo for Schwarber, who was off limits, and ended up with Torres+. I don’t blame the Pirates for asking for Torres but they’re definitely not getting him.
    Negotiations 101. Ask for the moon then move down the prospect line.

  4. #254

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    I don't know if I would want Cole for Frazier+. I don't know how much faith I have in him turning into an Ace and when he becomes a free agent, he will want to be paid like one eventhough he is not one.

    I think if I'm trading Frazier+, I would be willing to trade upside (someone like Cole) for a guy who is cost controlled for more years.
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  5. #255

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Stache Fan View Post
    The fact that multiple analysts have indicated that PIT may not accept a Frazier/Adams package means that we should be satisfied to surrender only that. Everyone please take a deep breath and stop prospect hugging lol
    But what if Cole is a mediocre 3 or 4 in the AL?

    And Adams can be a 1 or 2, while Frazier becomes a great every-day player

    It's not like Cole had above average seasons of late

  6. #256

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgementDay1123 View Post
    But what if Cole is a mediocre 3 or 4 in the AL?

    And Adams can be a 1 or 2, while Frazier becomes a great every-day player

    It's not like Cole had above average seasons of late
    With the penalties for going over the salary tax becoming harsher and harsher. I wonder if Adams and Frazier become more valuable if they can at least provide league average production for dirt cheap. You will need guys like that to offset the salaries of guys like Stanton.
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  7. #257

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgementDay1123 View Post
    But what if Cole is a mediocre 3 or 4 in the AL?

    And Adams can be a 1 or 2, while Frazier becomes a great every-day player

    It's not like Cole had above average seasons of late
    A trade would carry risks on each side.

    There is a decent chance that neither Chance Adams nor Clint Frazier post a career WAR above 1.0. That's the nature of prospects.

    Steamer projects 176 to 188 innings each from Luis Severino, Masahiro Tanaka, Sonny Gray and Jordan Montgomery with these projected 2018 WAR:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/projections...rs=0&sort=19,d

    ... and CC Sabathia with 1.7 WAR in 138 innings:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...404&position=P

    Meanwhile, Gerrit Cole is projected with a 2018 WAR of 3.8 in 198 innings:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...125&position=P

    Steamer is particularly cool on Adams and Frazier:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...066&position=P

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...83&position=OF

    ... in the 2018 season that includes the 24th birthday for each player.

  8. #258

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by tranquility View Post
    A trade would carry risks on each side.

    There is a decent chance that neither Chance Adams nor Clint Frazier post a career WAR above 1.0. That's the nature of prospects.

    Steamer projects 176 to 188 innings each from Luis Severino, Masahiro Tanaka, Sonny Gray and Jordan Montgomery with these projected 2018 WAR:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/projections...rs=0&sort=19,d

    ... and CC Sabathia with 1.7 WAR in 138 innings:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...404&position=P

    Meanwhile, Gerrit Cole is projected with a 2018 WAR of 3.8 in 198 innings:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...125&position=P

    Steamer is particularly cool on Adams and Frazier:

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...066&position=P

    http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx...83&position=OF

    ... in the 2018 season that includes the 24th birthday for each player.
    Lol you don't actually believe that though, do you?

    All I'm saying is that those prospects can be traded for a better pitcher who's had more success recently and with less concerns

    For example, I'd rather even trade Torres along with Frazier and Adams if it meant getting an elite starter, whether that's now or midseason. A guy like Syndegaard possibly (yes, he has injury concerns but he's never pitched less than superbly since he's been up)

  9. #259

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by JudgementDay1123 View Post
    But what if Cole is a mediocre 3 or 4 in the AL?

    And Adams can be a 1 or 2, while Frazier becomes a great every-day player

    It's not like Cole had above average seasons of late
    2.66 FIP in 2015 3.33 FIP in 2016. Calm down.
    "Owning the Yankees," Steinbrenner once said, "is like owning the Mona Lisa."

  10. #260

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by b_joseph View Post
    2.66 FIP in 2015 3.33 FIP in 2016. Calm down.
    Aight, maybe you got a point lol. I don't think I'd be pissed at the trade if it went down. I would just miss these guys. I think Frazier has a bright future when he works out his swing

  11. #261

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by b_joseph View Post
    2.66 FIP in 2015 3.33 FIP in 2016. Calm down.
    Doesn't tell the whole story - 4.08 FIP in his most recent season, including a tremendous spike in HR/9. You're cherry picking if you're ignoring that.

    Additionally, if you look at Coles's numbers during the last 3 years, another disturbing trend is how his performance fades during late August/September.

    Like I said in another post, he's the anti-Verlander.

    Definitely not worth the price he's going to cost.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  12. #262
    NYYF Cy Young


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    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmer's Helmet View Post
    Doesn't tell the whole story - 4.08 FIP in his most recent season, including a tremendous spike in HR/9. You're cherry picking if you're ignoring that.

    Additionally, if you look at Coles's numbers during the last 3 years, another disturbing trend is how his performance fades during late August/September.

    Like I said in another post, he's the anti-Verlander.

    Definitely not worth the price he's going to cost.
    2015
    August FIP 2.44, WHIP 1.21, HR/9 0.24
    Sept/Oct FIP 2.48, WHIP 1.02, HR/9 0.47

    2016
    August FIP 4.08, WHIP 1.88, HR/9 1.01
    Sept/Oct (only 2 IP) FIP 12.65, WHIP 4.00, HR/9 4.50

    2017
    August FIP 4.27, WHIP 1.17, HR/9 1.62
    Sept/Oct FIP 3.52, WHIP 1.33, HR/9 1.00

    He had a bad August in 2016 and 2017, but it looks like he recovered for September and October in 2017 (he only pitched 2 innings total those months in 2016). He did well at the end of the season for all of 2015. I don’t think I buy that he fades towards the end of the season since it happened once in his career. His overall second half numbers the past three years are pretty good even with a rough August.

    2nd half
    2015 - FIP 2.47, WHIP 1.06, HR/9 0.40
    2016 - FIP 3.69, WHIP 1.62, HR/9 0.76
    2017 - FIP 3.63, WHIP 1.20, HR/9 1.13

  13. #263

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmer's Helmet View Post
    Doesn't tell the whole story - 4.08 FIP in his most recent season, including a tremendous spike in HR/9. You're cherry picking if you're ignoring that.

    Additionally, if you look at Coles's numbers during the last 3 years, another disturbing trend is how his performance fades during late August/September.

    Like I said in another post, he's the anti-Verlander.

    Definitely not worth the price he's going to cost.
    Not cherry picking it. Just not taking too much stock in a single season compared to a sample of 4 years prior. Especially when his velocity appears to be just as strong as ever.
    If he had 4 years of 2017 and one year of 2015, I'd stay away from him.

    Aren't we all expected Tanaka to be more like his true self next season? Sometimes guys just have off seasons...Heck, remember Cano in 2008? Yikes.
    "Owning the Yankees," Steinbrenner once said, "is like owning the Mona Lisa."

  14. #264
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    Snatch Catch's Avatar
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    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    If we're talking Pirates SP, I'd be much happier trading Frazier for Glasnow than Cole at this point. I wonder if Cash can pounce on Glasnow. He was a mess and got lit the hell up in the Majors last year, but my goodness was he lights out in AAA before the promotion - some of the most incredible AAA domination I've ever seen. I would love it if he took the chance and bought low...
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  15. #265

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    If we're talking Pirates SP, I'd be much happier trading Frazier for Glasnow than Cole at this point. I wonder if Cash can pounce on Glasnow. He was a mess and got lit the hell up in the Majors last year, but my goodness was he lights out in AAA before the promotion - some of the most incredible AAA domination I've ever seen. I would love it if he took the chance and bought low...

    TBF I don't consider trading Frazier for a guy who was that bad an example of buying low but I'm at least interested in what yer sellin' me here.

  16. #266
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    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Don't like the idea of trading Frazier. I believe he will end up being an elite player. I would much rather stay put. The rotation is now set with Tanaka, Severino, Gray, Montgomery and Sabathia. Give Torres and Andujar an opportunity to start. If pitching becomes a problem, Adams, Sheffield, Acevedo and Abrau(SP) are waiting in the wings.

  17. #267
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    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    i'm fine passing on cole. i think injuries are gonna happen and i'd rather have the depth.
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  18. #268

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Yankees have what Pirates want for Gerrit Cole — but what's the cost?

    https://nypost.com/2017/12/18/yankee...hats-the-cost/

  19. #269

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken711 View Post
    Yankees have what Pirates want for Gerrit Cole — but what's the cost?

    https://nypost.com/2017/12/18/yankee...hats-the-cost/
    Well, the industry will have Cashman cringing again, since many believe the Yankees’ minor league system has what it takes to acquire right-hander Gerrit Cole from the Pirates without sacrificing top prospects Gleyber Torres and Estevan Florial.

  20. #270

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Ny27xwschamps View Post
    Well, the industry will have Cashman cringing again, since many believe the Yankees’ minor league system has what it takes to acquire right-hander Gerrit Cole from the Pirates without sacrificing top prospects Gleyber Torres and Estevan Florial.
    Can't imagine why any GM would ask for Torres or Florial or even Sheffield.

  21. #271

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken711 View Post
    Can't imagine why any GM would ask for Torres or Florial or even Sheffield.
    Yeah I have no clue either...

    Those would be the first 3 I ask for even if I know I'm not getting them lol.

  22. #272

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Ny27xwschamps View Post
    Yeah I have no clue either...

    Those would be the first 3 I ask for even if I know I'm not getting them lol.
    Ask but you may not receive.

  23. #273

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    for hypothetical sake..

    If the Pirates said they would take Andujar as the headlining bat but wanted Sheffield as well, do you do that over Frazier/Adams?

  24. #274
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    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Ny27xwschamps View Post
    for hypothetical sake..

    If the Pirates said they would take Andujar as the headlining bat but wanted Sheffield as well, do you do that over Frazier/Adams?
    That scenario makes the trade exponentially more painful to me.
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  25. #275

    Re: The Hunt for Gerrit Cole

    Quote Originally Posted by Ny27xwschamps View Post
    for hypothetical sake..

    If the Pirates said they would take Andujar as the headlining bat but wanted Sheffield as well, do you do that over Frazier/Adams?
    No, I'd do Frazier/Adams. Andujar at least plays a position that could fill a need soon and I really like Sheffields upside.

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