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  1. #26
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Can we change this to 15 reasons to open up wide for otani?
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  2. #27
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY View Post
    You can go back to 1976 and ask the same questions.

    Guidry, then comes into play, not many others.
    Jim Beattie won two postseason games in 1978.


    Ron Davis and Dave Righetti, who combined for 4 postseason wins in 1981, both started with other teams but spent non-trivial time in the minors with the Yankees. They probably wouldn't be considered "homegrown," though.


    You can go back even farther. In the Yankees' 5 straight championships from 1949-1953, the Yankees had a bunch of wins from homegrown Vic Raschi and one from Whitey Ford.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
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  3. #28
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Jim Beattie won two postseason games in 1978.


    Ron Davis and Dave Righetti, who combined for 4 postseason wins in 1981, both started with other teams but spent non-trivial time in the minors with the Yankees. They probably wouldn't be considered "homegrown," though.


    You can go back even farther. In the Yankees' 5 straight championships from 1949-1953, the Yankees had a bunch of wins from homegrown Vic Raschi and one from Whitey Ford.
    Righetti is a homegrown Yankee as far as I'm concerned.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  4. #29
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Jim Beattie won two postseason games in 1978.


    Ron Davis and Dave Righetti, who combined for 4 postseason wins in 1981, both started with other teams but spent non-trivial time in the minors with the Yankees. They probably wouldn't be considered "homegrown," though.


    You can go back even farther. In the Yankees' 5 straight championships from 1949-1953, the Yankees had a bunch of wins from homegrown Vic Raschi and one from Whitey Ford.
    Yup. I think the point is that it's probably best to have one or two starters come up from the farm and get the rest via trades or free agency.

    Severino could be one.
    Equally as calm as ClownPickle ~(+/- 1)

  5. #30
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    I'm in favor of trading for a SP. We have so much excess in the same positions we will need to make a deal or lose talent for nothing. The teams needs SP. Why not try and fill a need from a strength.

  6. #31
    Administrator Bub's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    I have one reason only, which is that it's way more fun to win with homegrown players. Realistically it's going to take a few free agents and/or trades to build the best team, but if the team made 25 trades right now and won the championship with the 25 replacement players, that wouldn't be very satisfying, at least to me.
    Let the kids play.

  7. #32
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    I have one reason only, which is that it's way more fun to win with homegrown players. Realistically it's going to take a few free agents and/or trades to build the best team, but if the team made 25 trades right now and won the championship with the 25 replacement players, that wouldn't be very satisfying, at least to me.
    I agree.

  8. #33

    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    I have one reason only, which is that it's way more fun to win with homegrown players. Realistically it's going to take a few free agents and/or trades to build the best team, but if the team made 25 trades right now and won the championship with the 25 replacement players, that wouldn't be very satisfying, at least to me.
    100 percent
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  9. #34

    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    We probably do not win our last three World Series championships without these guys who were all acquired via free agency or trade:

    Roger Clemens
    Mike Mussina
    CC Sabathia (who was fine before they extended his contract)
    Orlando Hernandez
    David Cone
    David Wells

    And as much as I hate them and the team they played for, Pedro Martinez and Curt Schilling worked out pretty well for the Red Sox.

    Point being that most rotations are built through a combination of home grown talent, free agent signings, and trades. It is extremely naive to think you can build 100% home grown rotation.
    I don't believe Bill was arguing otherwise - he was talking specifically about free agency and not trades.

    Nothing worse than signing a free agent pitcher to a huge long term contract only to watch his performance fall off a cliff. Just hurts the team in so many more ways than most trades will.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  10. #35

    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    All pitching acquisitions are risky. But you need good pitching to win a world series. End of story.

    I'd say more pitchers get injured or flame out building exclusively from the farm. Given the risk you need lots of depth in the farm that is supported by sound decisions in FA. At the end of the day you're throwing as much as you can against the wall hoping for some good luck.

    You may overpay in FA but you're also getting a more reliable product. Example the Nats overpaid for Scherzer but are getting some peak years out of him now. The Yankees won a championship because they nabbed CC and to a lesser extent Burnett. CC turned out to be a good price until the extension. These are the most common examples of FA pitchers (and FA in general).

  11. #36
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Last 3 years WS winning teams rotation:

    Cubs
    Lester (FA)
    Arrieta (Trade)
    Hendricks (Trade)
    Lackey (FA)
    Hammel (FA)

    Royals
    Volquez (FA)
    Ventura (Homegrown)
    Guthrie (FA)
    Duffy (Homegrown)
    Young (FA)

    Giants
    Bumgarner (Homegrown)
    Hudson (FA)
    Vogelsong (FA)
    Lincecum (Homegrown)
    Cain (Homegrown)
    Peavy (Trade)

  12. #37

    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Last 3 years WS winning teams rotation:

    Cubs
    Lester (FA)
    Arrieta (Trade)
    Hendricks (Trade)
    Lackey (FA)
    Hammel (FA)

    Royals
    Volquez (FA)
    Ventura (Homegrown)
    Guthrie (FA)
    Duffy (Homegrown)
    Young (FA)

    Giants
    Bumgarner (Homegrown)
    Hudson (FA)
    Vogelsong (FA)
    Lincecum (Homegrown)
    Cain (Homegrown)
    Peavy (Trade)
    And with the exception of Jon Lester, all were signed to modest deals that didn't hinder their teams' payroll flexibility.

    No Greinke-type deals there.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    And with the exception of Jon Lester, all were signed to modest deals that didn't hinder their teams' payroll flexibility.

    No Greinke-type deals there.
    And with the exception of Heyward, who actually is a negative asset, none of those teams signed hitters deals which hinder their team's payroll flexibility too.

  14. #39

    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    And with the exception of Heyward, who actually is a negative asset, none of those teams signed hitters deals which hinder their team's payroll flexibility too.
    Which would be a relevant point if the title of the thread were "15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Starting Lineup Through Free Agency".
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmers' Helmet View Post
    Which would be a relevant point if the title of the thread were "15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Starting Lineup Through Free Agency".
    I think it's relevant because the poster implies that teams should avoid FA pitching citing lots of example. Based on the same logic, teams should avoid FA hitting too.

    So the conclusion is "15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Team Through Free Agency"?

    And the poster said "Building pitching from within the organization is really the only way to be consistently successful". Ironically, the recent WS winning team just did the opposite and most people think they can be consistently successful.

  16. #41

    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    I think it's relevant because the poster implies that teams should avoid FA pitching citing lots of example. Based on the same logic, teams should avoid FA hitting too.

    So the conclusion is "15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Team Through Free Agency"?

    And the poster said "Building pitching from within the organization is really the only way to be consistently successful". Ironically, the recent WS winning team just did the opposite and most people think they can be consistently successful.
    Wouldn't you agree that pitchers are generally much more fragile than hitters?

    As such, isn't it a greater risk to sign a pitcher to an expensive, long-term contract than it would be for a hitter?
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  17. #42
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    [QUOTE=JL25and3;8281191]Jim Beattie won two postseason games in 1978.


    Ron Davis and Dave Righetti, who combined for 4 postseason wins in 1981, both started with other teams but spent non-trivial time in the minors with the Yankees. They probably wouldn't be considered "homegrown," though
    You can go back even farther. In the Yankees' 5 straight championships from 1949-1953, the Yankees had a bunch of wins from homegrown Vic Raschi and one from Whitey Ford. [QUOTE]




    I think you might have mistyped your comment on Ford. Whitey came up to the Yanks in late 1950 and as a rookie he went 9-1 and then went into the military for the 1951 and 1952 seasons. He then went 18-6 in 1953.


    Andy
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  18. #43
    Released Outright awy's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    the year is 2050, most pitchers sign 10 year extensions because the union is ................ed up etc.

    a transcendent pitcher emerges, by all measures scouting and stats, the best ever. after winning his 3rd consecutive ws with his draft club, the las vegas highrollers, the pitcher dares to defy convention and refused to sign an extension.

    meanwhile, at yankees HQ, one brian goldman (because cash is outlawed after the ron paul presidency of 2040) pondered his options.

    "is it a good idea to sign this guy? he seems good, and he's won before." these questions plagued brian, even in his sleep.

    in this moment of crisis, brian instinctively reached to the Sacred Bookmarks that had guided his thinking. his mind glided, like a condor seeking its pray, to one NYYFANS thread titled, "15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency".

    the revelatory insights of the thread op instantly tranquilized brian, putting his aching brain instantly at ease. "this is right!" brian shouted, his voice quivering with ecstatic relief.

    "what's all this ruckus?" president of yankees operations, one "awy", shouted from above brian's cubicle, his steely voice penetrating the translucent glass floor separating the c-suites from the back office.

    "this thread, you gotta read it sir." brian waved jubilantly, pointing to the op's post.

    "oh i know, op is dumb. any approach that claims to recover the rate of lemons from a branching auction tree from aggregate data without accounting for selection effects sensitive to market trends is dubious at best."

    the sound of a mic dropping can be heard in the distance as the lights went out from the top floor, leaving brian shaken in the darkness.
    Last edited by awy; 05-10-17 at 04:10 PM.

  19. #44
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    I have one reason only, which is that it's way more fun to win with homegrown players. Realistically it's going to take a few free agents and/or trades to build the best team, but if the team made 25 trades right now and won the championship with the 25 replacement players, that wouldn't be very satisfying, at least to me.
    Ditto. Well said.

  20. #45
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    [QUOTE=Nome;8281833][QUOTE=JL25and3;8281191]Jim Beattie won two postseason games in 1978.


    Ron Davis and Dave Righetti, who combined for 4 postseason wins in 1981, both started with other teams but spent non-trivial time in the minors with the Yankees. They probably wouldn't be considered "homegrown," though
    You can go back even farther. In the Yankees' 5 straight championships from 1949-1953, the Yankees had a bunch of wins from homegrown Vic Raschi and one from Whitey Ford.




    I think you might have mistyped your comment on Ford. Whitey came up to the Yanks in late 1950 and as a rookie he went 9-1 and then went into the military for the 1951 and 1952 seasons. He then went 18-6 in 1953.


    Andy
    Not a fair comparison since there was no unrestricted free agency and players were subject to the reserve clause prior to the 70's. You can argue that every rotation was homegrown. So leave out the 40's-50" dynasty years.

    For fun I came up with an all-homegrown 2017 Yankees pitching staff assuming no trades and free agency departures.

    SP: Nova, Kennedy, Severino, Hughes, Mongomery
    RP: Betances, Warren, DRob, Clippard, Melancon, Whitley, McAllister,

    Holder just misses the cut.
    http://vimel.ru/e6748

  21. #46
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    [QUOTE=Donnybaseball72;8281864][QUOTE=Nome;8281833]
    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Jim Beattie won two postseason games in 1978.


    Ron Davis and Dave Righetti, who combined for 4 postseason wins in 1981, both started with other teams but spent non-trivial time in the minors with the Yankees. They probably wouldn't be considered "homegrown," though
    You can go back even farther. In the Yankees' 5 straight championships from 1949-1953, the Yankees had a bunch of wins from homegrown Vic Raschi and one from Whitey Ford.

    Not a fair comparison since there was no unrestricted free agency and players were subject to the reserve clause prior to the 70's. You can argue that every rotation was homegrown. So leave out the 40's-50" dynasty years.

    For fun I came up with an all-homegrown 2017 Yankees pitching staff assuming no trades and free agency departures.

    SP: Nova, Kennedy, Severino, Hughes, Mongomery
    RP: Betances, Warren, DRob, Clippard, Melancon, Whitley, McAllister,

    Holder just misses the cut.
    Pretty sure Quintana cracks that 5.

  22. #47
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by awy View Post
    the year is 2050, most pitchers sign 10 year extensions because the union is ................ed up etc.

    a transcendent pitcher emerges, by all measures scouting and stats, the best ever. after winning his 3rd consecutive ws with his draft club, the las vegas highrollers, the pitcher dares to defy convention and refused to sign an extension.

    meanwhile, at yankees HQ, one brian goldman (because cash is outlawed after the ron paul presidency of 2040) pondered his options.

    "is it a good idea to sign this guy? he seems good, and he's won before." these questions plagued brian, even in his sleep.

    in this moment of crisis, brian instinctively reached to the Sacred Bookmarks that had guided his thinking. his mind glided, like a condor seeking its pray, to one NYYFANS thread titled, "15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency".

    the revelatory insights of the thread op instantly tranquilized brian, putting his aching brain instantly at ease. "this is right!" brian shouted, his voice quivering with ecstatic relief.

    "what's all this ruckus?" president of yankees operations, one "awy", shouted from above brian's cubicle, his steely voice penetrating the translucent glass floor separating the c-suites from the back office.

    "this thread, you gotta read it sir." brian waved jubilantly, pointing to the op's post.

    "oh i know, op is dumb. any approach that claims to recover the rate of lemons from a branching auction tree from aggregate data without accounting for selection effects sensitive to market trends is dubious at best."

    the sound of a mike dropping can be heard in the distance as the lights went out from the top floor, leaving brian shaken in the darkness.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  23. #48
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post

    I think you might have mistyped your comment on Ford. Whitey came up to the Yanks in late 1950 and as a rookie he went 9-1 and then went into the military for the 1951 and 1952 seasons. He then went 18-6 in 1953.


    Andy

    The question was about postseason wins. Ford had only one World Series win over that stretch, in 1950.


    I did leave out the one win in 1949 by homegrown Joe Page. But I'll admit, it's a little deceptive, because all but a few WS wins in that time were by just three pitchers - Raschi, Reynolds and Lopat. Only Raschi was homegrown.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  24. #49
    [QUOTE=just-blaze;8282014][QUOTE=Donnybaseball72;8281864]
    Quote Originally Posted by Nome View Post

    Pretty sure Quintana cracks that 5.
    Since the definition of homegrown seems pretty loose here, it's fair to note that Quintana was a Met before he was a Yankee.

  25. #50

    Re: 15 Reasons Not to Rebuild a Pitching Staff Through Free Agency

    On one hand FA pitchers are established and thus less risky than a hurler from the farm. On the other, getting elite pitching in FA is getting harder, and those who do get to market are going to destroy payroll flexibility. Which leaves trades as the best way to acquire elite front of the rotation pitching, then hope to develop one or two midrange starters, and plug the rest of the rotation with lower cost FA's.
    You’re inviting the world to bite your arse when you stick your head in the sand.’- Choss
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