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  1. #501

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Lou - you are one of the best posters in this site. We don't see enough of you around here recently. Everything you say above is reasonable and leads to good discussion.

    Yes, you framed my take properly. The only thing I would add is the only way the PH for Betances would matter is if both a) that spot came up in the 9th and b) Chapman struggled. If you don't swap Carter in for defense in the 8th with two extreme k rate pitchers covering the last two innings, you don't lose a PH in the 9th *if* two guys reach base. If Chapman struggles, you don't want A-Rod'07 sitting on the bench. Turns out that spot did not come up in the 9th, there were no balls hit to 1B in the 8th or 9th and Chapman did struggle. So no benefits to the moves that removed Judge from the game.

    That's all. I'm not burning him in effigy, calling for his firing, etc. Just questioning that sequence of decisions, regardless of what 99% of managers would have done.

    And the silver lining here is that in an early May 2017 game Aaron Judge has be n so dominant we're questioning his removal under these circumstances.
    Thanks a lot. Everything you've said above makes sense to me.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  2. #502
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    Thanks guys. Appreciate it. A couple of thoughts.

    If I understand you correctly False, here's the case you're making. Going to the bottom of the 8th, you know Betances is not going to pitch into the 9th, so you know you're taking him out after at most one inning of work. This means you can keep Judge in the game and send someone else to the bench knowing that you will burn a PH off your bench, clear the pitcher's spot again, and find a place to slot in Chapman before he takes the mound in the bottom of the 9th. Yes, that is an option Girardi had. I have no problem with people suggesting this would have been better.

    Where I have a problem is that I personally think it's unfair to expect Girardi to mke that move, since the move he made instead is so standard and is what managers would do 99% of the time, especially factoring in the human element I mentioned above. And it's especially unfair to bash Girardi (and those defending Girardi) so mercilessly when his decision is so clearly defensible, regardless of whether you may or may not believe it's optimal.

    I studiously attempt to avoid the polarizing arguments and the personal attacks that go on around here. I would objectively state that in this case, and arguably overall since this season began, it is the Girardi "haters" who are more guilty of over-the-top comments and personal attacks that detract from the quality of the discussion. Everything about the way the discussion around Girardi is framed on this board is slanted such that the basic premise, before any other facts are brought into evidence, is that Girardi is a dunce enslaved to his binder. Hey, I think the binder jokes are funny to a point, and it's also clear to me that he follows certain patterns that demonstrate a lack of creativity at times. But really, take a look at the comments in this thread, the season discussion thread, or any game thread and you'll see post after post dripping with sarcasm about how unfortunate we are to be saddled with such an idiot as the manager. This is really unfair to the guy, IMHO.

    It should come as no surprise that the relentless attacks on Girardi for every freaking move he makes -- especially when those attacks never once leave room for the benefit of the doubt that maybe, just maybe, this guy has access to information we don't -- would polarize Girardi's defenders into saying some things that you find "douchey."

    Also IMHO, Girardi outmanaged Maddon all weekend. I would take Girardi and his plodding, deliberate, by-the-book approach (which I believe has intangible benefits to his players, such as predictability and the appearance of objectivity) over a so-called "genius" like Maddon who deserved to lose the World Series with all his lunuatic hunches but was let off the hook.

    Finally, regarding Holliday vs. Carter at 1B, personally I think Holliday's defense last night showed why, although Carter is not much of an upgrade, he's less of a liability. But that's a much more debatable question, and I could make a case for either side, and it wasn't the point I was focusing on anyway. My feeling is that if the people who want to criticize Girardi were more selective in picking their battles, instead of issuing blanket disapproval of almost everything he does, we could have an intelligent discussion on questions like this.
    I've been a member of this forum for about a decade and this is one of the best posts I have seen. Everything you stated makes perfect sense and I'm in total agreement. Girardi is not above criticism, if you scroll back in this thread you'll see that I was extremely critical of the way he managed the third game of the series with the Pirates. But it becomes a bit much when we are subjected to the daily condescending "binder" references, the criticisms of every move, and as you so eloquently stated the posts dripping with sarcasm suggesting "that we are saddled with such an idiot as manager". The "idiot" has an Engineering degree from North Western and was the preferred catcher of some of the greatest pitchers of his generation. As manager, his teams have generally outperformed expectations and/or the talent level on the field. Thanks for attempting to bring some sanity into the discussion.

  3. #503
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    Acting confident has nothing to do with it but applying common sense does. Common sense dictates that using defensive metrics to measure a players defensive ability after 10 games is pointless and silly. Common sense dictates that Holliday is at first base for his BAT not DEFENSE. If you don't believe that just watch a reply of last night's game were
    Just completely ignored Carter's extensive sample size

    Holliday made several misplays at first and nearly got himself killed due to his lack of experience.
    That play was on Headley and his inability to throw. Catchable ball for an experienced 1B? Probably. That wasn't entirely on Holliday.

    And common sense dictates that the manager who has seen the player every day since spring training is in a better position to judge these things than message board posters.
    I'm gonna need a explanation as to how any of this makes Chris Carter a viable late inning defensive substitute.

  4. #504
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    I'm gonna need a explanation as to how any of this makes Chris Carter a viable late inning defensive substitute.
    I'm in the camp that Carter is a DH who owns a 1B glove so I'm not defending Carter as a defensive sub.

    But I can understand the logic of Joe putting in Carter who is a 1B by trade and has played many innings there both in his career and this season in as a defensive replacement for Holliday who just learned the position last year and was in his first game of the year defensively.

    I'm not saying it was the right move, just saying I can understand why Joe might do what he did.
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  5. #505
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    Just completely ignored Carter's extensive sample size



    That play was on Headley and his inability to throw. Catchable ball for an experienced 1B? Probably. That wasn't entirely on Holliday.



    I'm gonna need a explanation as to how any of this makes Chris Carter a viable late inning defensive substitute.
    Carter is a bad defensive first baseman but he's an experienced first baseman. Holliday is a DH who was given a glove. Holiday didn't make two plays yesterday that many experienced first baseman would have made and he nearly got himself seriously injured due to his lack of experience at first. I wonder what the reaction would have been in this thread if Holliday separated his shoulder on that play and was out for the season.

    This is my final post on the topic. Regarding my feelings on Girardi, I refer you to Sweet Lou's post which is what I believe, only Lou stated it more eloquently than I can.

  6. #506
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    I think the problem is that all manager's do meaningless double switches in games now. Really the only time a double switch makes sense is if you want the pitcher coming in to pitch more than one inning. So by putting him in the last used batting spot good chance that happens. Really makes no sense if you plan to use the pitcher for just one inning. So not criticizing Joe for this. They all do it.

  7. #507

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Can we all just agree that the pitcher hitting is just plain stupid?
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

  8. #508
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    Can we all just agree that the pitcher hitting is just plain stupid?
    That's because most are coddled like newborn babies. Up to about age 16, pitchers are usually among the best hitters on the field. Then the good pitchers work less and less at hitting, and by the time they get to the majors they've fallen way behind, and everyone worries about them getting hit by a pitch or hurt running the bases. It may have developed differently if so much money wasn't on the line with these big salaries.
    Let the kids play.

  9. #509
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    That's because most are coddled like newborn babies. Up to about age 16, pitchers are usually among the best hitters on the field. Then the good pitchers work less and less at hitting, and by the time they get to the majors they've fallen way behind, and everyone worries about them getting hit by a pitch or hurt running the bases. It may have developed differently if so much money wasn't on the line with these big salaries.
    Plus they're always getting injured not batting, and all.
    Equally as calm as ClownPickle ~(+/- 1)

  10. #510

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    That's because most are coddled like newborn babies. Up to about age 16, pitchers are usually among the best hitters on the field. Then the good pitchers work less and less at hitting, and by the time they get to the majors they've fallen way behind, and everyone worries about them getting hit by a pitch or hurt running the bases. It may have developed differently if so much money wasn't on the line with these big salaries.
    Yeah, usually in high school the best pitcher is also the best hitter and plays SS when not pitching (if righthanded). Although I heard Al Leiter once say he couldn't hit a lick in high school either.
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  11. #511
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    That's because most are coddled like newborn babies. Up to about age 16, pitchers are usually among the best hitters on the field. Then the good pitchers work less and less at hitting, and by the time they get to the majors they've fallen way behind, and everyone worries about them getting hit by a pitch or hurt running the bases. It may have developed differently if so much money wasn't on the line with these big salaries.
    My son plays on his High School team and most of the pitchers are " pitchers only", they don't hit or play the field.

  12. #512

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    My son plays on his High School team and most of the pitchers are " pitchers only", they don't hit or play the field.
    Now I feel old
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  13. #513

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    This thread is really crappy. Some of you think that as long as the Yankees are winning games, the manager's moves can't be scrutinized. The concern is that Joe will make some boneheaded moves when the games matter more than they do now - case in point, last September in Fenway - and the results will be different.
    Thanks TheBo for writing this. It was so exhausting reading through the posts that used condescension because people made reasonable critiques of Girardi. I didn't have the energy to say what you said well.

    For the life of me, I don't understand the people who say "well, sure, an an anonymous internet poster would do better than Girardi." Like, why are you on this forum if you're so adverse to discussing/critiquing the players/coaches/mgmt of the team it was designed to discuss?

    I think anyone being fair realizes there's a lot to managing a team that most of us would fail miserably at, if attempted. Girardi does a lot right. But, even when the team is successful, there is room for improvement, criticism, etc.

    Jace nailed it with his posts and credit to him for keeping his composure while getting sniped at and his posts blatantly distorted far from what he clearly stated.

  14. #514
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    I realize and appreciate the fact that CC bounced back after that horrible 2nd inning but why would you let him to stay in there long enough to allow the Reds to put up 5 runs when you have Green in the bullpen? If you are not going to bring in Green in that situation, why is he even here?
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  15. #515
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Hi folks. At the risk of getting blasted for questioning Joe Girardi, Manager of the Yankees, I have a question for those against questioning Joe.

    Why did Chris Carter bat the last two time?

    Also, why is Holliday now replacing him in the field?

    Thanks for any insight.
    Equally as calm as ClownPickle ~(+/- 1)

  16. #516
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY View Post
    Hi folks. At the risk of getting blasted for questioning Joe Girardi, Manager of the Yankees, I have a question for those against questioning Joe.

    Why did Chris Carter bat the last two time?

    Also, why is Holliday now replacing him in the field?

    Thanks for any insight.
    Don't you dare question the all-knowing, all-seeing Geniusardi.

  17. #517
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by matt2351 View Post
    Don't you dare question the all-knowing, all-seeing Geniusardi.
    I know I'm risking things here, I'm just asking kindly.
    Equally as calm as ClownPickle ~(+/- 1)

  18. #518

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JDPNYY View Post
    Hi folks. At the risk of getting blasted for questioning Joe Girardi, Manager of the Yankees, I have a question for those against questioning Joe.

    Why did Chris Carter bat the last two time?

    Also, why is Holliday now replacing him in the field?

    Thanks for any insight.
    I believe it was so Green could have stayed in the game had they tied it up in the 9th. But I see your point with it. More so for the 1st of the two times.

  19. #519

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet Lou
    I would take Girardi and his plodding, deliberate, by-the-book approach (which I believe has intangible benefits to his players, such as predictability and the appearance of objectivity) over a so-called "genius" like Maddon who deserved to lose the World Series with all his lunuatic hunches but was let off the hook.
    Sure Maddon over managed in the WS, but quite frankly all he did was channel his inner Girardi. Joe has gotten progressively worse in high pressure situations, had he been the Cubs manager last year the meltdown would have rivaled Chernobyl
    You’re inviting the world to bite your arse when you stick your head in the sand.’- Choss
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  20. #520
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    My son plays on his High School team and most of the pitchers are " pitchers only", they don't hit or play the field.
    Right. Age 16 is high school 2nd or 3rd year. If the trend continues to back up to earlier ages the NL will ultimately have to go with the DH.
    Let the kids play.

  21. #521

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    Right. Age 16 is high school 2nd or 3rd year. If the trend continues to back up to earlier ages the NL will ultimately have to go with the DH.
    there's no "no DH" until AA ball now as it is, and even in 2 and 3A it's only when both clubs are NL affiliates. There's very limited at bats for pitchers with the current milb setup.
    You’re inviting the world to bite your arse when you stick your head in the sand.’- Choss
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  22. #522
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Can we not bat the guy with more walks than strikeouts with a 1.000+ OPS 8th and in front of the team's worst hitter?

  23. #523
    Brien "The Incident" just-blaze's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Yea.....with all due respect to Sanchez. Hicks should be seeing extensive time at the 2 with as good as he is seeing the ball.

  24. #524
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    While we're critiquing the lineup, Didi should bat 9th. Easily the worst approach on the team.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  25. #525

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    While we're critiquing the lineup, Didi should bat 9th. Easily the worst approach on the team.


    Huh? Judge was 0-3 and Didi had a hit

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