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  1. #476
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    Better numbers at first base? Holliday has 10 major league games at first base. Enough said.
    Carter has 3500 innings at 1B with -20 DRS. Acting confident doesn't make facts go away.

  2. #477
    Better than you teknetic's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    My condescension/sarcasm??? His is called the "Binder Performance Thread". No sarcasm or condescension there, right?

    The idea that a 55/45 descision involves no judgment and that the "right" descision is always the 55 side of the equation is just silly. It's still basically a toss up, it still involves other factors besides those that went into determining the 54/45 equation, and there's still the manager's knowledge of the players involved. How condescending is it for internet experts to be calling out the manager for making the wrong descision on what they admit is a 44/45 decision? Do we really want to waste our time on calling out a manager for taking the wrong side of a 55/45 call? When will we start calling him out for taking the "wrong" side of a 51/49 decision?
    He's been called Binder for years now; your constant mentioning of "internet experts" is tiring and quite boring. Someone mentions that Chris Carter, in all his negative defensive glory, isn't an ideal candidate for a late inning defensive replacement and your best response is to say, "Can you do better?" Snore.

  3. #478
    Released Outright awy's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    better internet experts than internet dunces lul

  4. #479

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Binder has proved to be very effective this season.

    So far.

  5. #480
    Released Outright awy's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    the in game moves don't matter in the grand scheme of things. he has two big jobs this season, keep guys healthy and fresh, manage the bullpen.

  6. #481
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    For God's sake, please everyone stop saying that Judge was replaced for defense when he very clearly was not. This was a simple case of a double switch where the last man to bat gets subbed out.

    In the 8th inning, Luis Severino's #9 spot was due to lead off. Gardner pinch hit. At that point Gardner, Ellsbury, Hicks, and Judge were all in the game. In fact, all of them batted that inning, with Judge making the third out from the #5 spot.

    Betances was to come into the game to pitch. Girardi's choices were to take out Gardner (due up 4th), Ellsbury (5th), Hicks (6th), or Judge (9th). He picked Judge.

    This move was such an obvious no-brainer it's not even funny. I can't believe 24 hours later so many people aren't getting this.

    There will always be reasons to criticize any manager but with the way this team is playing, all this bashing of Girardi seems pretty ridiculous to me. And no, this is not "thread policing" or any other nonsense like that. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but don't make up bogus reasons for the manager's decision and then criticize him for that very same bogus reasoning.
    Excellent post. This is what happens when an AL fanbase reacts irrationally to playing under NL rules.
    http://vimel.ru/e6748

  7. #482
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    For God's sake, please everyone stop saying that Judge was replaced for defense when he very clearly was not. This was a simple case of a double switch where the last man to bat gets subbed out.

    In the 8th inning, Luis Severino's #9 spot was due to lead off. Gardner pinch hit. At that point Gardner, Ellsbury, Hicks, and Judge were all in the game. In fact, all of them batted that inning, with Judge making the third out from the #5 spot.

    Betances was to come into the game to pitch. Girardi's choices were to take out Gardner (due up 4th), Ellsbury (5th), Hicks (6th), or Judge (9th). He picked Judge.

    This move was such an obvious no-brainer it's not even funny. I can't believe 24 hours later so many people aren't getting this.

    There will always be reasons to criticize any manager but with the way this team is playing, all this bashing of Girardi seems pretty ridiculous to me. And no, this is not "thread policing" or any other nonsense like that. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but don't make up bogus reasons for the manager's decision and then criticize him for that very same bogus reasoning.
    Thank you. Baseball 101.
    SJW - bad attempt at insulting people that care about other's rights and not just their own.

  8. #483
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    Carter has 3500 innings at 1B with -20 DRS. Acting confident doesn't make facts go away.
    Acting confident has nothing to do with it but applying common sense does. Common sense dictates that using defensive metrics to measure a players defensive ability after 10 games is pointless and silly. Common sense dictates that Holliday is at first base for his BAT not DEFENSE. If you don't believe that just watch a reply of last night's game were Holliday made several misplays at first and nearly got himself killed due to his lack of experience. And common sense dictates that the manager who has seen the player every day since spring training is in a better position to judge these things than message board posters.

  9. #484
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    For God's sake, please everyone stop saying that Judge was replaced for defense when he very clearly was not. This was a simple case of a double switch where the last man to bat gets subbed out.

    In the 8th inning, Luis Severino's #9 spot was due to lead off. Gardner pinch hit. At that point Gardner, Ellsbury, Hicks, and Judge were all in the game. In fact, all of them batted that inning, with Judge making the third out from the #5 spot.

    Betances was to come into the game to pitch. Girardi's choices were to take out Gardner (due up 4th), Ellsbury (5th), Hicks (6th), or Judge (9th). He picked Judge.

    This move was such an obvious no-brainer it's not even funny. I can't believe 24 hours later so many people aren't getting this.

    There will always be reasons to criticize any manager but with the way this team is playing, all this bashing of Girardi seems pretty ridiculous to me. And no, this is not "thread policing" or any other nonsense like that. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but don't make up bogus reasons for the manager's decision and then criticize him for that very same bogus reasoning.
    Thank you very much Sweet Lou. Anyone that has followed the games for more than 10 minutes knows your right on all points, it not even debatable.

  10. #485

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    This was a simple case of a double switch where the last man to bat gets subbed out.

    In the 8th inning, Luis Severino's #9 spot was due to lead off. Gardner pinch hit. At that point Gardner, Ellsbury, Hicks, and Judge were all in the game. In fact, all of them batted that inning, with Judge making the third out from the #5 spot.

    Betances was to come into the game to pitch. Girardi's choices were to take out Gardner (due up 4th), Ellsbury (5th), Hicks (6th), or Judge (9th). He picked Judge.

    This move was such an obvious no-brainer it's not even funny. I can't believe 24 hours later so many people aren't getting this.
    Circumstances would be different if the Yankees were losing or didn't want to burn through the pitcher on the mound, but why was this necessary with a 3 run lead? Severino finished off the seventh strong and the Yanks were going to use Betances in the eighth and Chapman for the ninth. Why would it matter when the pitchers spot was due up? You just simply send up a pinch hitter when/if the pitcher's spot comes up and then you don't lose arguable one of your most productive hitters.

  11. #486
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    This thread is really crappy. Some of you think that as long as the Yankees are winning games, the manager's moves can't be scrutinized. The concern is that Joe will make some boneheaded moves when the games matter more than they do now - case in point, last September in Fenway - and the results will be different.

  12. #487

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Benefactor View Post
    Circumstances would be different if the Yankees were losing or didn't want to burn through the pitcher on the mound, but why was this necessary with a 3 run lead? Severino finished off the seventh strong and the Yanks were going to use Betances in the eighth and Chapman for the ninth. Why would it matter when the pitchers spot was due up? You just simply send up a pinch hitter when/if the pitcher's spot comes up and then you don't lose arguable one of your most productive hitters.
    Please go ahead and choose which of the outfielders you would have removed from the game instead. Also please explain why, in the highly unlikely scenario where your closer blows the save and you go to extra innings (where you want to be careful about not burning pitchers too quickly), it suddenly wouldn't matter to you how quickly you need to pinch hit.

    This is not even beginning to get into the human factor in managing, something so many in this forum exclude entirely from their criticisms of Girardi. As hot as Judge is, explain to me exactly how you would justify to the other players in the equation why you're willing to go against the obvious move when all three of these guys are also red hot (Gardner hit a three-run homer the night before, Ellsbury hit a two-run homer that very inning, and Hicks is the second coming of Barry Bonds according to some on this board).
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  13. #488

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    This thread is really crappy. Some of you think that as long as the Yankees are winning games, the manager's moves can't be scrutinized. The concern is that Joe will make some boneheaded moves when the games matter more than they do now - case in point, last September in Fenway - and the results will be different.
    If this is directed at me, I'm really disappointed. Seriously.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  14. #489
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    For God's sake, please everyone stop saying that Judge was replaced for defense when he very clearly was not. This was a simple case of a double switch where the last man to bat gets subbed out.

    In the 8th inning, Luis Severino's #9 spot was due to lead off. Gardner pinch hit. At that point Gardner, Ellsbury, Hicks, and Judge were all in the game. In fact, all of them batted that inning, with Judge making the third out from the #5 spot.

    Betances was to come into the game to pitch. Girardi's choices were to take out Gardner (due up 4th), Ellsbury (5th), Hicks (6th), or Judge (9th). He picked Judge.

    This move was such an obvious no-brainer it's not even funny. I can't believe 24 hours later so many people aren't getting this.

    There will always be reasons to criticize any manager but with the way this team is playing, all this bashing of Girardi seems pretty ridiculous to me. And no, this is not "thread policing" or any other nonsense like that. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but don't make up bogus reasons for the manager's decision and then criticize him for that very same bogus reasoning.
    i didn't say Judge was replaced for defense; I said Carter was a defensive replacement. But I still disagree with it being a no-brainer.

    You have Didi, Headley and Romine coming up in the bottom of the 9th. If Carter was still on the bench he could have PH replacing Betances in the event those hitters were able to get something going. The only way batting position matters in this situation is if Chapman coughs up the lead. If he does, it's a bummer if the leagues best hitter and ideal bat to help end an extra inning game has been benched.

    Here's the deal, and it's not at all directed at you Lou. It's ok to question a manager's moves. Doing so doesn't mean "you think you could do better." You can also question individual moves without condemning the manager's overall body of work. It shouldn't be assumed to be MMQB either. I was questioning that decision with members here when it was made.

    It's also ok to defend a decision. That can be done effectively without douchey comments like "anyone who has watched baseball for more than 10 minutes" yada yada.

  15. #490
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    If this is directed at me, I'm really disappointed. Seriously.
    Not at all at you. What you wrote made sense.

  16. #491
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    This thread is really crappy. Some of you think that as long as the Yankees are winning games, the manager's moves can't be scrutinized. The concern is that Joe will make some boneheaded moves when the games matter more than they do now - case in point, last September in Fenway - and the results will be different.


    Boss, you're off base. Of course Girardi's moves should be scrutinized, nobody has suggested otherwise . I and others who generally support him have criticized some of his decisions like batting Ellsbury cleanup, etc. But as Sweet Lou stated some here are clearly coming up with bogus reasons to criticize Girardi and its fair to call them out. One poster yesterday suggested Girardi should have anticipated an 18 inning game. Scrutinize all you want but don't come up with bogus reasons and expect not to be called out.

  17. #492
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    This thread is really crappy. Some of you think that as long as the Yankees are winning games, the manager's moves can't be scrutinized. The concern is that Joe will make some boneheaded moves when the games matter more than they do now - case in point, last September in Fenway - and the results will be different.
    You are so right. It's the moves he made in that Fenway series and using Mitchell at first base against Baltimore that worry me more about Joe than what happens at an NL park.

  18. #493
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    You are so right. It's the moves he made in that Fenway series and using Mitchell at first base against Baltimore that worry me more about Joe than what happens at an NL park.


    The moves mentioned in your post (and others) merited scrutiny/criticism. I have not seen anyone here suggest otherwise. As I mentioned in my previous post, some of us have an issue with posters who are coming up with bogus reasons to criticize Girardi.

  19. #494

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    I don't think this thread should be solely on scrutinizing the bad moves. We can speak to the good one's too. For instance, not having a set line-up every game actually seems to be working. I feel like guys are in a different spot every game besides 2 or 3 of them. Bullpen management has been good as usual. He could have easily pulled Tanaka earlier last night but left him in.

  20. #495
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    Boss, you're off base. Of course Girardi's moves should be scrutinized, nobody has suggested otherwise . I and others who generally support him have criticized some of his decisions like batting Ellsbury cleanup, etc. But as Sweet Lou stated some here are clearly coming up with bogus reasons to criticize Girardi and its fair to call them out. One poster yesterday suggested Girardi should have anticipated an 18 inning game. Scrutinize all you want but don't come up with bogus reasons and expect not to be called out.
    Only in your reality was that said.
    Calmer than you are

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  21. #496

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    Please go ahead and choose which of the outfielders you would have removed from the game instead. Also please explain why, in the highly unlikely scenario where your closer blows the save and you go to extra innings (where you want to be careful about not burning pitchers too quickly), it suddenly wouldn't matter to you how quickly you need to pinch hit.

    This is not even beginning to get into the human factor in managing, something so many in this forum exclude entirely from their criticisms of Girardi. As hot as Judge is, explain to me exactly how you would justify to the other players in the equation why you're willing to go against the obvious move when all three of these guys are also red hot (Gardner hit a three-run homer the night before, Ellsbury hit a two-run homer that very inning, and Hicks is the second coming of Barry Bonds according to some on this board).
    Girardi should assume Chapman is going to cough up a 3 run lead in the 9th? How about removing no outfielders? Why not just pinch hit seldomly used Refsnyder (Girardi/Cashman see him as expendable garage anyways) for Betances if his spot was due up at in the 9th? Why make an unnecessary move when you don't have to?

  22. #497
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    This thread is really crappy. Some of you think that as long as the Yankees are winning games, the manager's moves can't be scrutinized. The concern is that Joe will make some boneheaded moves when the games matter more than they do now - case in point, last September in Fenway - and the results will be different.
    It's fine to question moves. But there are more than a few posters who are against nearly every move Girardi makes just to complain about it.

    21-9 says he's doing something right.

    Sure there have been a few head scratcher moves but many of them seem to be with 162 games in mind as opposed to win every game every day.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  23. #498

    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    i didn't say Judge was replaced for defense; I said Carter was a defensive replacement. But I still disagree with it being a no-brainer.

    You have Didi, Headley and Romine coming up in the bottom of the 9th. If Carter was still on the bench he could have PH replacing Betances in the event those hitters were able to get something going. The only way batting position matters in this situation is if Chapman coughs up the lead. If he does, it's a bummer if the leagues best hitter and ideal bat to help end an extra inning game has been benched.

    Here's the deal, and it's not at all directed at you Lou. It's ok to question a manager's moves. Doing so doesn't mean "you think you could do better." You can also question individual moves without condemning the manager's overall body of work. It shouldn't be assumed to be MMQB either. I was questioning that decision with members here when it was made.

    It's also ok to defend a decision. That can be done effectively without douchey comments like "anyone who has watched baseball for more than 10 minutes" yada yada.
    Quote Originally Posted by THEBOSS84 View Post
    Not at all at you. What you wrote made sense.
    Thanks guys. Appreciate it. A couple of thoughts.

    If I understand you correctly False, here's the case you're making. Going to the bottom of the 8th, you know Betances is not going to pitch into the 9th, so you know you're taking him out after at most one inning of work. This means you can keep Judge in the game and send someone else to the bench knowing that you will burn a PH off your bench, clear the pitcher's spot again, and find a place to slot in Chapman before he takes the mound in the bottom of the 9th. Yes, that is an option Girardi had. I have no problem with people suggesting this would have been better.

    Where I have a problem is that I personally think it's unfair to expect Girardi to mke that move, since the move he made instead is so standard and is what managers would do 99% of the time, especially factoring in the human element I mentioned above. And it's especially unfair to bash Girardi (and those defending Girardi) so mercilessly when his decision is so clearly defensible, regardless of whether you may or may not believe it's optimal.

    I studiously attempt to avoid the polarizing arguments and the personal attacks that go on around here. I would objectively state that in this case, and arguably overall since this season began, it is the Girardi "haters" who are more guilty of over-the-top comments and personal attacks that detract from the quality of the discussion. Everything about the way the discussion around Girardi is framed on this board is slanted such that the basic premise, before any other facts are brought into evidence, is that Girardi is a dunce enslaved to his binder. Hey, I think the binder jokes are funny to a point, and it's also clear to me that he follows certain patterns that demonstrate a lack of creativity at times. But really, take a look at the comments in this thread, the season discussion thread, or any game thread and you'll see post after post dripping with sarcasm about how unfortunate we are to be saddled with such an idiot as the manager. This is really unfair to the guy, IMHO.

    It should come as no surprise that the relentless attacks on Girardi for every freaking move he makes -- especially when those attacks never once leave room for the benefit of the doubt that maybe, just maybe, this guy has access to information we don't -- would polarize Girardi's defenders into saying some things that you find "douchey."

    Also IMHO, Girardi outmanaged Maddon all weekend. I would take Girardi and his plodding, deliberate, by-the-book approach (which I believe has intangible benefits to his players, such as predictability and the appearance of objectivity) over a so-called "genius" like Maddon who deserved to lose the World Series with all his lunuatic hunches but was let off the hook.

    Finally, regarding Holliday vs. Carter at 1B, personally I think Holliday's defense last night showed why, although Carter is not much of an upgrade, he's less of a liability. But that's a much more debatable question, and I could make a case for either side, and it wasn't the point I was focusing on anyway. My feeling is that if the people who want to criticize Girardi were more selective in picking their battles, instead of issuing blanket disapproval of almost everything he does, we could have an intelligent discussion on questions like this.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  24. #499
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Definitely do not think just because we are winning that you cannot criticize the manager. However sometimes it can be too much. For instance anytime Aaron Judge sits even half a game people lose it. He is not going to play 162 games. Last night was his first game off sister first week of the season and Joe was blasted
    SJW - bad attempt at insulting people that care about other's rights and not just their own.

  25. #500
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 Binder Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    Thanks guys. Appreciate it. A couple of thoughts.

    If I understand you correctly False, here's the case you're making. Going to the bottom of the 8th, you know Betances is not going to pitch into the 9th, so you know you're taking him out, which means you can keep Judge in the game and send someone else to the bench knowing that you will burn a PH off your bench, clear the pitcher's spot again, and find a place to slot in Chapman before he takes the mound in the bottom of the 9th. Yes, that is an option Girardi had. I have no problem with people suggesting this would have been better.

    Where I have a problem is that I personally think it's unfair to expect Girardi to mke that move, since the move he made instead is so standard and is what managers would do 99% of the time, especially factoring in the human element I mentioned above. And it's especially unfair to bash Girardi (and those defending Girardi) so mercilessly when his decision is so clearly defensible, regardless of whether you may or may not believe it's optimal.

    I studiously attempt to avoid the polarizing arguments and the personal attacks that go on around here. I would objectively state that in this case, and arguably overall since this season began, it is the Girardi "haters" who are more guilty of over-the-top comments and personal attacks that detract from the quality of the discussion. Everything about the way the discussion around Girardi is framed on this board is slanted such that the basic premise, before any other facts are brought into evidence, is that Girardi is a dunce enslaved to his binder. Hey, I think the binder jokes are funny to a point, and it's also clear to me that he follows certain patterns that demonstrate a lack of creativity at times. But really, take a look at the comments in this thread, the season discussion thread, or any game thread and you'll see post after post dripping with sarcasm about how unfortunate we are to be saddled with such an idiot as the manager. This is really unfair to the guy, IMHO.

    It should come as no surprise that the relentless attacks on Girardi for every freaking move he makes -- especially when those attacks never once leave room for the benefit of the doubt that maybe, just maybe, this guy has access to information we don't -- would polarize Girardi's defenders into saying some things that you find "douchey."

    Also IMHO, Girardi outmanaged Maddon all weekend. I would take Girardi and his plodding, deliberate, by-the-book approach (which I believe has intangible benefits to his players, such as predictability and the appearance of objectivity) over a so-called "genius" like Maddon who deserved to lose the World Series with all his lunuatic hunches but was let off the hook.

    Finally, regarding Holliday vs. Carter at 1B, personally I think Holliday's defense last night showed why, although Carter is not much of an upgrade, he's less of a liability. But that's a much more debatable question, and I could make a case for either side, and it wasn't the point I was focusing on anyway. My feeling is that if the people who want to criticize Girardi were more selective in picking their battles, instead of issuing blanket disapproval of almost everything he does, we could have an intelligent discussion on questions like this.
    Lou - you are one of the best posters in this site. We don't see enough of you around here recently. Everything you say above is reasonable and leads to good discussion.

    Yes, you framed my take properly. The only thing I would add is the only way the PH for Betances would matter is if both a) that spot came up in the 9th and b) Chapman struggled. If you don't swap Carter in for defense in the 8th with two extreme k rate pitchers covering the last two innings, you don't lose a PH in the 9th *if* two guys reach base. If Chapman struggles, you don't want A-Rod'07 sitting on the bench. Turns out that spot did not come up in the 9th, there were no balls hit to 1B in the 8th or 9th and Chapman did struggle. So no benefits to the moves that removed Judge from the game.

    That's all. I'm not burning him in effigy, calling for his firing, etc. Just questioning that sequence of decisions, regardless of what 99% of managers would have done.

    And the silver lining here is that in an early May 2017 game Aaron Judge has be n so dominant we're questioning his removal under these circumstances.

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