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  1. #301

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmer's Helmet View Post
    In today's game where teams use a 5-man rotation and starters no longer pitch 15-20 complete games a year, one could argue that 250 wins is the equivalent of what 300 wins meant 30 years ago.

    While I generally agree that wins in themselves aren't indicative of a pitcher's effectiveness, a pitcher who reaches 250 - 300 career wins is indicative of someone who has been consistent and durable throughout his career. You look at the list of pitchers in MLB history who won at least 250 games, and you won't see a Steve Stone or Ross Grimsley in there. None of them got there by fluke.

    Whether you agree or not, reaching 250 career wins is a milestone in today's game.
    I look at wins when the team isnít that good, and across a string of seasons. If your winning around 20 games every season, chances are your pretty damn good. If your winning 20 games on a 500 team, again probably pretty good. But again those would just be conjectures and wins alone could never tell me or anyone what they need to know
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  2. #302

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zimmer's Helmet View Post
    In today's game where teams use a 5-man rotation and starters no longer pitch 15-20 complete games a year, one could argue that 250 wins is the equivalent of what 300 wins meant 30 years ago.

    While I generally agree that wins in themselves aren't indicative of a pitcher's effectiveness, a pitcher who reaches 250 - 300 career wins is indicative of someone who has been consistent and durable throughout his career. You look at the list of pitchers in MLB history who won at least 250 games, and you won't see a Steve Stone or Ross Grimsley in there. None of them got there by fluke.

    Whether you agree or not, reaching 250 career wins is a milestone in today's game.
    Whether it's a milestone is totally subjective and, for me, it's just not.

    Now, if you want a round number, then 3000 strikeouts, that is a milestone.

  3. #303

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Melancynic View Post
    Whether it's a milestone is totally subjective and, for me, it's just not.

    Now, if you want a round number, then 3000 strikeouts, that is a milestone.
    To each his own, but to me, getting 250 wins is a big-time accomplishment.

  4. #304

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    250 wins doesnt get you in the hall of fame. Wouldnt call it a milestone but its a big time achievement
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by fightingirish595 View Post
    250 wins doesnt get you in the hall of fame. Wouldnt call it a milestone but its a big time achievement
    There are many in the HoF with fewer than 250. Whitey Ford is one of them.

  6. #306

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by philleotardo View Post
    There are many in the HoF with fewer than 250. Whitey Ford is one of them.
    Different argument entirely. 250 wins doesn't guarantee anything nor is it a pre-req to getting into the hall. 300 wins guarantees entry basically
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  7. #307
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    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    There are 9 hall of famer's with 250 or more losses.
    2 with more than 300 losses.

    Just a tidbit of info.
    Equally as calm as ClownPickle ~(+/- 1)

  8. #308

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Melancynic View Post
    I sure hope not. Pitcher wins are worthless in defining a starter's performance/ability. And the obsession with round numbers always mystified me. But if we're going to follow that logic, at least make it 300. Who cares about 250?

    A ring and logging more innings this year than last is what should mean something to him now.
    CC is already on the record stating, unprompted, that he has "unfinished business" with the Yankees and wants another ring.

    It's not an either-or proposition for him to value that ring above all else and yet still assign value to a milestone like 250 wins.

    Also I hope you understand that with few exceptions, all of us on this board are way past the point of arguing that wins "matter" as an effective measurement of pitching performance. I hope you can also understand that this has nothing at all to do with why they have meaning to the player himself.

    A batter about to get his 2,000th RBI is going to be pretty excited about that milestone too, regardless of whether RBIs are the best measure of his performance as a hitter.
    "Baseball is about hope, not confidence." -- rajah

  9. #309

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    He's made the transition to the crafty veteran. Changing speeds and using the cutter to induce weak contact like Pettitte. I'm not sure if he's a 180 innings guy anymore, but I'd be thrilled with another 122 ERA+.

  10. #310

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by sweet_lou_14 View Post
    CC is already on the record stating, unprompted, that he has "unfinished business" with the Yankees and wants another ring.

    It's not an either-or proposition for him to value that ring above all else and yet still assign value to a milestone like 250 wins.

    Also I hope you understand that with few exceptions, all of us on this board are way past the point of arguing that wins "matter" as an effective measurement of pitching performance. I hope you can also understand that this has nothing at all to do with why they have meaning to the player himself.

    A batter about to get his 2,000th RBI is going to be pretty excited about that milestone too, regardless of whether RBIs are the best measure of his performance as a hitter.
    Isn't about if they are excited so as much as should they be. For 250 wins, nah. 300 go nuts IMO.

  11. #311

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rollo_T View Post
    He's made the transition to the crafty veteran. Changing speeds and using the cutter to induce weak contact like Pettitte. I'm not sure if he's a 180 innings guy anymore, but I'd be thrilled with another 122 ERA+.
    Iím sure heís not. That 122 ERA+ has to be tempered by the fact that itís premised on him only getting through the lineup twice. Back when his ERA started to balloon, it was typically because he was left in games too long. Drove me nuts when Girardi did that because CC had normally pitched well for 5-6 innings in those games. Eventually Joe adjusted to reality and accepted that CC was no longer a work horse.

    To get value out of CC today, the Yankees must maintain a deep bullpen. This is a key difference between todayís version of CC and Andy late in his career. When he was healthy, Andy was giving the Yankees 194 innings at age 37 and 185 at age 41. Even in his injury shortened seasons at ages 38 and 40, Andy was still averaging better than 6 innings per start when he was able to get out there. CC only averaged 5.5 innings per start last year.
    Last edited by Bill Marsh; 12-22-17 at 07:27 AM.

  12. #312

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Melancynic View Post
    Isn't about if they are excited so as much as should they be. For 250 wins, nah. 300 go nuts IMO.
    this is pure messageboard commentator talk. 250 wins in the major leagues is an amazing accomplishment that any player would be excited about, as is reaching 200 wins, and 100, and 1, and making the majors at all. all that aside, i agree with those above saying that 300 is beyond reach these days and 250 may be the new standard.
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  13. #313
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    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Win is not the best measure for pitcher's ability but 250 wins is still a great accomplishment. Less than 50 pitchers in MLB history achieved this milestone.

    It also would help his HOF chance.

  14. #314

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Will 250 become the new 300 at some point?
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  15. #315
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    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by fightingirish595 View Post
    Will 250 become the new 300 at some point?
    It may have to be. The game has evolved and even the cream of the crop has to adhere to the new strategy when their club has a strong bullpen. Wins and losses are clearly affected by pitch counts and bullpen strength and matchups late in the game more than the actual quality of a start.

    In fact, if wins are still going to be a milestone for HOF voters, quality starts need to be considered to offset the new strategy. My only thing is I believe what actually qualifies as a quality start should be redefined. A 4.50 era is very loose.
    In Cashman I trust.
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  16. #316

    Re: 2017 C.C. Sabathia Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    Win is not the best measure for pitcher's ability but 250 wins is still a great accomplishment. Less than 50 pitchers in MLB history achieved this milestone.

    It also would help his HOF chance.
    Is he better than the guy in your avatar? If that guy has minimal chance, then I can't see it for CC.
    "Owning the Yankees," Steinbrenner once said, "is like owning the Mona Lisa."

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by b_joseph View Post
    Is he better than the guy in your avatar? If that guy has minimal chance, then I can't see it for CC.
    Moose is on the right track. I feel good about his chance.

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