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Thread: Healthcare

  1. #1676
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    From the gun thread. Didn't want to bog down they gun violence thread with this topic and derail it.

    Maynerd I've seen you make this claim or some variation of it on multiple occasions so I'll ask you again since I've never gotten a response -

    What data do you have to support the above claim on ACA?
    No data. Strictly observational.

    What data do YOU have that the Act was effective?

    Did prices go down? [This is a trick question, because no one, not even the doctors, know what the price of anything is. If I go into a barber shop, there's a chart on the wall telling me what each of the offered services costs. Good luck finding a doctor or hospital that will do this.]

    Did access increase? [Yes, more people are insured, but there's a vast difference between coverage and access.] Those who couldn't previously pay for insurance are now unable to pay for deductables and co-pays. But hey, they have insurance now. Problem solved, right?

    So, what did the Act actually achieve? The goal was access and affordability. Did it accomplish either of these things? Or, did it simply serve as a thousand page mess of regulations, accomplishing nothing other than to allow the Democrats to say "See? We did something about it."

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  2. #1677
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    What data do YOU have that the Act was effective?
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db279.htm

    Infant mortality rate dropped significantly after the passage of ACA, particularly in minority groups.

    I believe the improved access and coverage of ACA had a lot to do with that.

    I'm not saying ACA was perfect but it was a step in the right direction even if it didn't go nearly far enough.
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  3. #1678

    Re: Healthcare

    I think the ACA could have worked better if, in addition to guaranteeing everyone access to health insurance, they regulated the price of everything as well. Like Maynerd said, what good is having insurance if you can't afford the deductible. I guess it beats paying a fine for not having insurance.

    That's why the claims that get touted about the number of people with insurance after ACA growing by millions rings kind of hollow. Yeah, if you force people to buy insurance, more people will have insurance.

  4. #1679
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    Re: Healthcare

    https://www.consumerreports.org/pers...al-bankruptcy/

    As legislators and the executive branch renew their efforts to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act this week, they might want to keep in mind a little-known financial consequence of the ACA: Since its adoption, far fewer Americans have taken the extreme step of filing for personal bankruptcy.
    Filings have dropped about 50 percent, from 1,536,799 in 2010 to 770,846 in 2016 (see chart, below). Those years also represent the time frame when the ACA took effect. Although courts never ask people to declare why they’re filing, many bankruptcy and legal experts agree that medical bills had been a leading cause of personal bankruptcy before public healthcare coverage expanded under the ACA. Unlike other causes of debt, medical bills are often unexpected, involuntary, and large.
    ....
    Bankruptcy filings down 50%
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  5. #1680
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    Re: Healthcare

    http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...104-story.html

    7 charts that show the success of ACA.

    Yes there are still huge problems with the USA healthcare system but getting people access to coverage is an extremely important first step that ACA does very well.
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  6. #1681

    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...104-story.html

    7 charts that show the success of ACA.

    Yes there are still huge problems with the USA healthcare system but getting people access to coverage is an extremely important first step that ACA does very well.
    Those 7 charts basically boils down to:

    -Less uninsured (no kidding).

    -Hospital costs down (which makes sense since everyone is forced to carry insurance, and therefore hospitals are not left holding the bag when an emergency patient who is uninsured is brought in).

    -National health expenditure decreased: see above.

    -More people (not including children or the elderly) have visited a doctor. I call this the "I'm paying for insurance, I might as well use it" factor. I don't think this applies much to people who cannot afford it, which may be why they limited the survey to only include non-elderly adults.

    Seems to me like these are a bunch of charts showing why the hospitals, politicians and insurance companies think the ACA is a success.

  7. #1682

    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db279.htm

    Infant mortality rate dropped significantly after the passage of ACA, particularly in minority groups.

    I believe the improved access and coverage of ACA had a lot to do with that.

    I'm not saying ACA was perfect but it was a step in the right direction even if it didn't go nearly far enough.
    When LBJ rolled out Medicare in 1968 it was an awful mess. Worse then the ACA. With Congressional tweeks Medicare got on and stays on the right track.
    Every massive government program has growing pains.
    The presidency doesn't change who you are. It reveals who you are. First Lady Michelle Obama (2015)

  8. #1683
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by BRenninger View Post
    When LBJ rolled out Medicare in 1968 it was an awful mess. Worse then the ACA. With Congressional tweeks Medicare got on and stays on the right track.
    Every massive government program has growing pains.
    I get that.

    I was trying to show actual evidence of ACA success. Which the first link did directly and second did indirectly but Coffee has no interest in it and Maynerd doesn't seem to want to address anything beyond folksy anectodes.

    To me the elimination of pre-existing conditions and removal of life time caps were just 2 of the things that made it a success over what what before.
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  9. #1684

    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I get that.

    I was trying to show actual evidence of ACA success. Which the first link did directly and second did indirectly but Coffee has no interest in it and Maynerd doesn't seem to want to address anything beyond folksy anectodes.

    To me the elimination of pre-existing conditions and removal of life time caps were just 2 of the things that made it a success over what what before.
    I don't think your first link shows a correlation between the ACA and infant mortality. I addressed the issues I had with the second link.

    If I had no interest I wouldn't have responded at all.

  10. #1685
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I don't think your first link shows a correlation between the ACA and infant mortality. I addressed the issues I had with the second link.

    If I had no interest I wouldn't have responded at all.
    ACA's goal was more coverage. And it provided it.

    Now whether or not that coverage resulted in meaningful improvements in National Healthcare over all is the debate.

    While there were great holes in ACA and many flaws, I do believe it provided meaningful benefits to millions of americans who did not otherwise have those benefits and saved hundreds of thousand of americans from having to file bankruptcy over uncovered medical expenses.

    As for infant mortality
    In addition to the Essential Health Benefits requirement to cover maternity care and preventive services, the ACA adds § 2713(a)(4) to the Public Health Service Act (“the Women's Health Amendment”) to require coverage of women's health preventive services, including prenatal care, without cost sharing.
    Are you claiming that required prenatal care coverage mandated by ACA had no impact on the declining infant mortality rates?
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  11. #1686
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    ACA's goal was more coverage. And it provided it.
    It wasn't the Americans With Healthcare Coverage Act. It was the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. You're moving the goal posts. The goal was affordability and access, not coverage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper
    Now whether or not that coverage resulted in meaningful improvements in National Healthcare over all is the debate.

    While there were great holes in ACA and many flaws, I do believe it provided meaningful benefits to millions of americans who did not otherwise have those benefits and saved hundreds of thousand of americans from having to file bankruptcy over uncovered medical expenses.
    If the cost of healthcare is the issue, more people with insurance coverage is not the solution. The problem was always painted as cost and access (as it should be). The act did nothing to alleviate that problem. The fact that the Act may have had some favorable consequences (pre-existing conditions, catastrophic caps) doesn't mean it was the least bit effective as a solution to the defined problem.

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  12. #1687
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    It wasn't the Americans With Healthcare Coverage Act. It was the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. You're moving the goal posts. The goal was affordability and access, not coverage.

    If the cost of healthcare is the issue, more people with insurance coverage is not the solution. The problem was always painted as cost and access (as it should be). The act did nothing to alleviate that problem. The fact that the Act may have had some favorable consequences (pre-existing conditions, catastrophic caps) doesn't mean it was the least bit effective as a solution to the defined problem.
    The ONLY way to get affordable health care is to have the whole pool covered.

    The best way to do that is what nearly every other industrialized nation in the word has done.

    The ACA mandate was a step in forcing the pool to cover everyone.

    And for millions of americans it did give them affordable access to care an coverage they didn't previously have. unfortunately for many more it still left them with bills or treatment they couldn't afford.

    I've still yet to meet one person who think ACA is the be all end all solution but it's far better than the free market alternatives that have been proposed.
    Baseball is life;
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  13. #1688

    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    It wasn't the Americans With Healthcare Coverage Act. It was the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act. You're moving the goal posts. The goal was affordability and access, not coverage.

    If the cost of healthcare is the issue, more people with insurance coverage is not the solution. The problem was always painted as cost and access (as it should be). The act did nothing to alleviate that problem. The fact that the Act may have had some favorable consequences (pre-existing conditions, catastrophic caps) doesn't mean it was the least bit effective as a solution to the defined problem.
    Oh so now definitions matter.
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  14. #1689

    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Are you claiming that required prenatal care coverage mandated by ACA had no impact on the declining infant mortality rates?
    I'm claiming that the link you provided doesn't show a correlation between the two.

    Your link shows infant mortality rate, which is up to one year of age:



    There is a slight decline (although the decline has been pretty constant for a while):



    If it was due to the ACA, wouldn't you expect the same trend in the neonatal (up to 28 days old) mortality rate?:


  15. #1690
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    And for millions of americans it did give them affordable access to care an coverage they didn't previously have.
    Some of those were healthy, young Americans, who opted out of health insurance, until the government told them they had to have it. Basically, they made the choice to NOT pay exorbitant rates when there was a low likelihood of needing the coverage. You make it sound like those people are rejoicing in their new-found coverage. Some are. Many are not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper
    unfortunately for many more it still left them with bills or treatment they couldn't afford.
    And that is why I consider the ACA to be a complete and utter failure. Our leadership decided the healthcare issue was in the Too Hard To Solve pile, so they came up with a solution to something that wasn't ever the problem in the first place, just so they could say "we did something about it."

    That's why I made the comparison to putting more weapons into our schools. It's a great solution to the problem, if you define the problem as the inability to shoot back. But if you define the problem as guns in schools (and other soft targets), it's not a solution at all. If you define the healthcare problem as affordability, mandating insurance coverage was not the solution.

    It seems it's much easier for our "leadership" to come up with a half-assed solution, just to be able to say they "did something about it," even if the end result has no effect on the original problem.

    Healthcare too expensive? Make everyone buy insurance! There, we did something about it. We didn't fix anything, but we can say we did something.

    People killing our children in schools? Let's arm teachers! There, we did something about it. We didn't fix anything, but we can say we did something.

    National debt out of control? Let's either spend more money or raise less revenue! Maybe both at the same time! There, we did something about it. We didn't fix anything (in fact, we continuously make the problem worse), but we can say we did something.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  16. #1691
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Healthcare

    Mayner, you had the crappiest healthcare system in he modern world. One party tried to do more. Others stopped them.

    The ACA is step one of dragging the US health system out of the 19th century.
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  17. #1692

    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    The ONLY way to get affordable health care is to have the whole pool covered.

    The best way to do that is what nearly every other industrialized nation in the word has done.

    The ACA mandate was a step in forcing the pool to cover everyone.

    And for millions of americans it did give them affordable access to care an coverage they didn't previously have. unfortunately for many more it still left them with bills or treatment they couldn't afford.

    I've still yet to meet one person who think ACA is the be all end all solution but it's far better than the free market alternatives that have been proposed.
    Do you know what the best part of having everyone covered is in terms of helping the people?

    You suddenly have a tremendous amount of leverage to negotiate prices for procedures, drugs, premiums, deductibles, etc. This is what those other countries do to keep healthcare costs down.

    But we didn't use that leverage. Instead, we forced everyone to pay into the insurance pool in exchange for them covering people they may not have. That was all we got.

    The insurance companies and healthcare provides can still charge pretty much whatever. If you're really poor, you may qualify for a subsidy to help pay for your premiums. But that doesn't cover your deductible. Or medication.

    The American people got a raw deal.

  18. #1693

    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    Mayner, you had the crappiest healthcare system in he modern world. One party tried to do more. Others stopped them.

    The ACA is step one of dragging the US health system out of the 19th century.
    What did one party try to do that was stopped by the other party?

    As far as I can tell, all the healthcare proposals that have gone anywhere have been variations on this same 'let's get more people insured' theme.

  19. #1694
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    Mayner, you had the crappiest healthcare system in he modern world. One party tried to do more. Others stopped them.

    The ACA is step one of dragging the US health system out of the 19th century.
    The ACA is far from perfect, but what we “had” was a joke. Unless you had money of course and never got sick.
    2018: the year the USA put children in cages

  20. #1695

    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    The ACA is far from perfect, but what we “had” was a joke. Unless you had money of course and never got sick.
    For many people, nothing has changed in that regard.

    There are also those who are worse off-- not being able to afford to go to the doctor, but forced to pay for insurance.

    It's better than nothing, I guess, but not by a whole lot IMO.

    The fact that universal healthcare hasn't happened yet is ridiculous.

    Nobody should get reelected until that happens.

  21. #1696

    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    For many people, nothing has changed in that regard.

    There are also those who are worse off-- not being able to afford to go to the doctor, but forced to pay for insurance.

    It's better than nothing, I guess, but not by a whole lot IMO.

    The fact that universal healthcare hasn't happened yet is ridiculous.

    Nobody should get reelected until that happens.
    I think the well care and major/catastrophic coverage make it significantly better than nothing. That so many choose not to use the well care is pretty baffling to me but I think that would continue to get improve if it were better publicized. I'm with you on universal and I think the Dems should make it their top talking point in 2018 and 2020. Of course they also need to have a cohesive action plan to make that work.
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  22. #1697
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    Re: Healthcare

    Universal (not single payer or Medicare for all) is what we need.
    2018: the year the USA put children in cages

  23. #1698
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    What did one party try to do that was stopped by the other party?

    As far as I can tell, all the healthcare proposals that have gone anywhere have been variations on this same 'let's get more people insured' theme.
    The Dems came quite close to getting a public option.

    Given the whole that lay before them, that would have been a better step forward.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
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  24. #1699
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Do you know what the best part of having everyone covered is in terms of helping the people?

    You suddenly have a tremendous amount of leverage to negotiate prices for procedures, drugs, premiums, deductibles, etc. This is what those other countries do to keep healthcare costs down.

    But we didn't use that leverage. Instead, we forced everyone to pay into the insurance pool in exchange for them covering people they may not have. That was all we got.

    The insurance companies and healthcare provides can still charge pretty much whatever. If you're really poor, you may qualify for a subsidy to help pay for your premiums. But that doesn't cover your deductible. Or medication.

    The American people got a raw deal.
    I get that too.

    America isn’t ready to cut out the middle man yet so they tried to make ins. Cos the de facto beuracracy.
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  25. #1700
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    Re: Healthcare

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Some of those were healthy, young Americans, who opted out of health insurance, until the government told them they had to have it. Basically, they made the choice to NOT pay exorbitant rates when there was a low likelihood of needing the coverage. You make it sound like those people are rejoicing in their new-found coverage. Some are. Many are not.
    And that is why I consider the ACA to be a complete and utter failure. Our leadership decided the healthcare issue was in the Too Hard To Solve pile, so they came up with a solution to something that wasn't ever the problem in the first place, just so they could say "we did something about it."

    That's why I made the comparison to putting more weapons into our schools. It's a great solution to the problem, if you define the problem as the inability to shoot back. But if you define the problem as guns in schools (and other soft targets), it's not a solution at all. If you define the healthcare problem as affordability, mandating insurance coverage was not the solution.

    It seems it's much easier for our "leadership" to come up with a half-assed solution, just to be able to say they "did something about it," even if the end result has no effect on the original problem.

    Healthcare too expensive? Make everyone buy insurance! There, we did something about it. We didn't fix anything, but we can say we did something.

    People killing our children in schools? Let's arm teachers! There, we did something about it. We didn't fix anything, but we can say we did something.

    National debt out of control? Let's either spend more money or raise less revenue! Maybe both at the same time! There, we did something about it. We didn't fix anything (in fact, we continuously make the problem worse), but we can say we did something.
    There is so much fail in this post I don’t even know where to begin. Maybe I’ll have strength tomorrow.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

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