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  1. #2776

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ny27xwschamps View Post
    Where was this kind of voting process in 1999 with Jeter?

    Altuve in 2017 .346/.410/.547/.957 (8.0 WAR) (won MVP by landslide) Jeter in 1999. .349/.438/.552/.989 8.3 WAR(6th in MVP voting)

    Judge in 2017.. .284/.422/.627/1.049 (8.6 WAR) (runner up) Irod in 1999. .332/.356/.558/.914. 6.0 WAR (MVP)

    There's always been an NY bias, (now Altuve did have an MVP caliber season) but that still doesn't prove this point wrong.. Jeter finishing 6th in 1999, Morneau over Jeter, but then Pedroia with less numbers wins it the following year, Palmeiro over Martinez for GG despite playing 25 Gs there, Berroa over Matsui for ROY. Mariano never winning a cy young because a reliever can't win it, then Gagne getting it.
    Don't forget Gary Sanchez losing out on the ROY last year.

  2. #2777

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Also BS that Judge's strikeout totals are used against him, but was never an issue for anybody else.

  3. #2778
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by trapper700 View Post
    No. Here's a comparison of their stats (mostly stolen from RAB):

    AVG: Altuve (.348 to .287)
    OBP: Judge (.422 to .410)
    SLG: Judge (.627 to .547)
    Runs: Judge (128 to 112)
    RBI: Judge (114 to 81)
    HR: Judge (52 to 24)
    XBH: Judge (79 to 67)
    SB: Altuve (32 to 9)
    OPS+: Judge (171 to 164)
    wRC+: Judge (173 to 160)
    DRS: Judge (9 to 3)
    fWAR: Judge (8.2 to 7.5)
    bWAR: Altuve (8.3 to 8.1)
    WARP: Judge (7.40 to 6.40)

    Not to mention they had 6 non-Altuve players with better OPS+ than 2nd place on the Yankees (Sanchez). Judge meant way more to the Yankees than Altuve did to the Astros, who would have easily won the AL West with a replacement level 2B.
    Talk about a landslide
    If they ask who was our star, give them 25 names, and if you forget our names, just tell them we were Yankees.

  4. #2779

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 1936-1939JoeNLou View Post
    Don't forget Gary Sanchez losing out on the ROY last year.
    There was a legitimate reason not to give it to him, at least, given that he only played 1/3 of the season and lost to a pitcher who had a very good full season. The Judge/Altuve situation is a lot different.

  5. #2780
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pleasepassthesoup View Post
    There was a legitimate reason not to give it to him, at least, given that he only played 1/3 of the season and lost to a pitcher who had a very good full season. The Judge/Altuve situation is a lot different.
    Very true. Sanchez was a long shot to win last season. But my main issue is not about Altuve winning. It's more how the writers really go out of there way not vote for Yankees. If Altuve had won by 4 or 5 votes like Stanton we would not be complaining. Or Jeter having Altuve's slash line in 1999 but finishing 6Th in the voting.

  6. #2781
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GordonGecko View Post
    I can even see a non-unanimous vote leading to blowing up the entire HOF ballot system in outrage
    Quote Originally Posted by Tifoso View Post
    Agree with your analysis completely.
    Sorry guys, they're not blowing up anything over Mariano not getting the first unanimous HOF vote. As well-respected as he is around the country he is not a quasi-religious icon there as he is here. If they didn't blow it up for Seaver or Maddux or Griffey not getting unanimous, they aren't blowing it up for Mariano.

    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    Big surprise. Another Yankee screwed out of the MVP. So how about you tell me the last time a Yankees player won a BBW award when another player was more deserving. And I am referring to the Steinbrenner era. After 1977.
    Only one I can sort of come up with is Clemens getting the Cy Young in 2001. Of course, the deserving candidate who missed out was another Yankee, Mike Mussina, who finished 5th. But you could make the case that Mark Mulder, who finished 2nd, and Freddy Garcia, who was 3rd, also were more deserving than Clemens.

  7. #2782
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HelloNewman View Post
    Sorry guys, they're not blowing up anything over Mariano not getting the first unanimous HOF vote. As well-respected as he is around the country he is not a quasi-religious icon there as he is here. If they didn't blow it up for Seaver or Maddux or Griffey not getting unanimous, they aren't blowing it up for Mariano.

    Only one I can sort of come up with is Clemens getting the Cy Young in 2001. Of course, the deserving candidate who missed out was another Yankee, Mike Mussina, who finished 5th. But you could make the case that Mark Mulder, who finished 2nd, and Freddy Garcia, who was 3rd, also were more deserving than Clemens.
    I thought Mussina should have won but maybe that is the only year you can say that. Coincidently the one season where people were pro Yankees due to the tragedy of 9/11.

  8. #2783
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Keep in mind that it's only 30 votes. Not all writers are able to vote for this award. The result will be a lot different if say the NL MVP voters this year voted for AL MVP instead.

    It's not like in 1947 when Joe DiMaggio beat Ted Williams, 202 points to 201. Williams led in WAR, 9.9 to 4.8, while winning the Triple Crown. And a voter totally left Williams off his ballot. The Sporting News would also reveal that the results were made available to the writers a week before they announced and some used that information to wager on the results.

    Now that's bias.

  9. #2784

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HelloNewman View Post
    Sorry guys, they're not blowing up anything over Mariano not getting the first unanimous HOF vote. As well-respected as he is around the country he is not a quasi-religious icon there as he is here.
    facts
    the 1890's socialist Player's League, founded by workers:
    socialistappeal.org/history-theory/us-history/959-the-1890-players-league.html

  10. #2785

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    I expected Altuve to win it once I heard Kay had an inside source on Judge winning.

    Hopefully next year we'll be talking about how Judge finished second to Trout in the MVP voting. That would mean he had a phenomenal season.

  11. #2786

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    9

    Big surprise. Another Yankee screwed out of the MVP. So how about you tell me the last time a Yankees player won a BBW award when another player was more deserving. And I am referring to the Steinbrenner era. After 1977.
    In the Steinbrenner era . . .

    1976 - Thurman Munson
    1977 - Sparky Lyle
    1985 - Don Mattingly
    2001 - Roger Clemens

  12. #2787
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    In the Steinbrenner era . . .

    1976 - Thurman Munson
    1977 - Sparky Lyle
    1985 - Don Mattingly
    2001 - Roger Clemens
    I still wonder how Sparky Lyle won over Jim Palmer or Nolan Ryan that year.

  13. #2788

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    I still wonder how Sparky Lyle won over Jim Palmer or Nolan Ryan that year.
    +6 Stache.

  14. #2789
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    I was shocked when I got home and did not see Judge's name as the winner. Landslide? There is something wrong here, there is no way that midget could have beat him by a landslide....Unbelievable.

  15. #2790
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    In the Steinbrenner era . . .

    1976 - Thurman Munson
    1977 - Sparky Lyle
    1985 - Don Mattingly
    2001 - Roger Clemens

    I said after 1977 for a reason. Before 1978 there was not a lot of anti Steinbrenner feelings among the press. By the way you left out A Rod winning the MVP. But other than Clemens in 2001 the only way the writers will pick a Yankees player for a major award is if the stats are so overwhelming that they have to do it. Like Judge for ROY this season. In all other cases the Yankees player not ony does not win, he gets vote totals that leave you scratching your head. You really think that Altuve was that much better than Judge that he gets 27 out of the 30 first place votes or Jeter having a better slashline than Altuve did this season back in 1999 but finishes a distant 6th in the voting? Or the writers deciding players from the Japanese league should not win ROY the year Matsui was up for it. And lets not forget Guidry snubbed for MVP because not an everyday player which I accepted at the time but than Clemens gets the MVP over Mattingly. The Yankees run from 1996 until 2003 was outstanding yet not once was a Yankees player named MVP.

  16. #2791

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    I said after 1977 for a reason. Before 1978 there was not a lot of anti Steinbrenner feelings among the press.
    What happened in 1978 to get writers to turn on a dime against the Yankees after voting back-to-back major awards to the Yankees in the previous 2 years when there were arguably a number of better candidates each of those years?

    By the way you left out A Rod winning the MVP.
    I was answering your question to name Yankees who received a major award from the BBWA when there was another player more deserving. I couldn't think of anyone more deserving than ARod in the years when he won his 2 MVPs with the Yankees. So I left ARod out.

    But other than Clemens in 2001 the only way the writers will pick a Yankees player for a major award is if the stats are so overwhelming that they have to do it.
    What about Mattingly in 1985? How about Jose Rosado who had a better WAR than Jeter in 1996?

    Like Judge for ROY this season. In all other cases the Yankees player not ony does not win, he gets vote totals that leave you scratching your head. You really think that Altuve was that much better than Judge that he gets 27 out of the 30 first place votes
    The number of votes a player gets has nothing to do with how much better one player is than another. If 27 voters thought Altuve was a slightly better candidate, then Altuve gets 27 votes.

    or Jeter having a better slashline than Altuve did this season back in 1999 but finishes a distant 6th in the voting?
    You can't compare slash lines from different seasons. Jeter losing in 1999 was not the injustice that season. It was elevating IRod to a level that he didn't deserve and giving him the award over a whole handful of more deserving players. The writers must have been in drugs in those years. They gave the award to an undeserving Rangers' player for the 3rd time in 4 years. Juan Gon? Really?

    Or the writers deciding players from the Japanese league should not win ROY the year Matsui was up for it.
    It's not a static group of writers. The composition of the voters changes from year to year with turnover every year. Maybe there was a sufficient change to correct an obvious mistake. A similar thing happened in 2010 when a group of writers finally decided to award the CYA to a player based on his pitching rather than on how many games his team won when he was on the mound. Times change. Or maybe it's simply because the competition for the award was so much stronger in 2003 than it was in 2001.

    And lets not forget Guidry snubbed for MVP because not an everyday player which I accepted at the time but than Clemens gets the MVP over Mattingly. The Yankees run from 1996 until 2003 was outstanding yet not once was a Yankees player named MVP.
    Picking a pitcher over an everyday player has been a dilemma for the writers ever since pitchers were given their own award. 1978 was really strange because the Yankees beat the Red Sox head-to-head but the writers gave the award to the guy from the losing team. Team success would normally be the tiebreaker in a case like that.

    1986 is a tough case to make for anti-Yankee bias because Wade Boggs was arguably more deserving than Mattingly but the writers favored Mattingly be a wide margin. And they had given the award to Mattingly the year before when there were arguably a number of better candidates that year. Anti-Yankee bias in 1986 but not in 1985? Anti-Yankee bias in 1978 but not in 1976-77?

    There's really no explaining these pitcher over everyday player votes.

    MVP, HOF, and all the rest have seemed screwy to me or a long time. So I gave up trying to make sense of them a long time ago. I sympathize with your feelings because I used to get irate in the same kind of way.

    As for the writers being biased against the Yankees, that makes one heck of a conspiracy theory because you're making the case for this hatred persisting for 40 years with a changing group of writers. Is there anyone still voting today who was voting back in 1978? Probably. But very few.

    Any time voting is involved there are strange outcomes because people's reasons are so subjective. We can look at the outcomes of political elections to find the same kinds of illogical voting patterns. C'est la vie.

  17. #2792

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    The number of votes a player gets has nothing to do with how much better one player is than another. If 27 voters thought Altuve was a slightly better candidate, then Altuve gets 27 votes.
    this.
    the 1890's socialist Player's League, founded by workers:
    socialistappeal.org/history-theory/us-history/959-the-1890-players-league.html

  18. #2793
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    To answer Bill's question George did not go into full Steinbrenner mode until 1978. Much like in 1996 Yankees were not disliked for winning their first pennant in 12 years in 1976. It was starting in 1978 that George really took over things.

  19. #2794

    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    To answer Bill's question George did not go into full Steinbrenner mode until 1978. Much like in 1996 Yankees were not disliked for winning their first pennant in 12 years in 1976. It was starting in 1978 that George really took over things.
    Maybe so, but George had already given them plenty of reason to hate the fat, rich kid before that with the signings of Catfish and Reggie to big contracts. That didn't go over well in those days, not like today.

    Meanwhile you're assuming that the MVP vote was an anti-Yankee vote rather than a pro-Rice one. Not only did Rice have an historic season that year with 400+ Total Bases and lead the league in almost everything in sight, but he had even better clutch stats to boot. There were plenty of good reasons to vote for Rice over Guidry that year.

  20. #2795
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    I thank George, God rest his soul. He was spending his money to better the team that he and we love(d).
    Thanks Mr Steinbrenner
    -Lou
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    Totus Tuus

  21. #2796
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    Re: The Official 2017 Aaron Judge Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Maybe so, but George had already given them plenty of reason to hate the fat, rich kid before that with the signings of Catfish and Reggie to big contracts. That didn't go over well in those days, not like today.

    Meanwhile you're assuming that the MVP vote was an anti-Yankee vote rather than a pro-Rice one. Not only did Rice have an historic season that year with 400+ Total Bases and lead the league in almost everything in sight, but he had even better clutch stats to boot. There were plenty of good reasons to vote for Rice over Guidry that year.

    Catfish was thought to be a one shot deal. Other teams offered him similar contracts. As for Reggie the Expos actually offered more money than George did. There were free agents signed by other teams also so George was not knocked for signing Reggie. As for 1978 I already said I understood why Rice won the award. Although Guidry also had an historic season. Maybe it's because the writers claimed that Rice got it because he was an everyday player which I also understood. Than the same writers did a 180 when it was Clemens vs Mattingly in 1986.

  22. #2797
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    Quote Originally Posted by ymike673 View Post
    Catfish was thought to be a one shot deal. Other teams offered him similar contracts. As for Reggie the Expos actually offered more money than George did. There were free agents signed by other teams also so George was not knocked for signing Reggie. As for 1978 I already said I understood why Rice won the award. Although Guidry also had an historic season. Maybe it's because the writers claimed that Rice got it because he was an everyday player which I also understood. Than the same writers did a 180 when it was Clemens vs Mattingly in 1986.
    It's not the same group of writers who voted.

    BTW Brett was basically this year Judge in MVP voting in 1985.

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