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  1. #11901
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    The anti-abortion crowd can point out whatever they want. I do not have to agree with it. I don't agree that there are two bodies involved. I believe there is is one body and a parasitic collection of human tissue and DNA. They call it a body, a baby, a human being, a person. I call it none of those things and believe they are wrong. I can't think of any reason to defer to their beliefs.
    I think the point Maynerd was making, which I understand you don't agree with, is that using language like "a parasitic collection of human tissue and DNA" does nothing to influence those on the other side of the ledger. In fact, it makes them more likely to resist seeing your POV. Now, I'm not sure how much using softer language will touch the hearts and minds of pro-lifers, but I'm pretty confident this is non-productive to counter-productive at best. That doesn't seem important to you, probably because you also doubt whether that matters or not. But if I were strategizing, I'd be less cynical towards the opposing POV even if that didn't move the needle much or at all.

  2. #11902
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    They should be held accountable for lying. That said, if this were the case, he would not have come close to a single primary victory, let alone the presidency.

    Thinking that Trump would pass laws that would not fill his own pockets (and those of people like him) was not only naive but bordering on foolish. Trump has been telling the world who he is for thirty plus years. He only has an interest in increasing his own power, finances, and ego.

    If you believe in improving the middle classes in the US, it is very difficult (if not impossible) to make a case for the Republican Party. They have spent 40 years making it weaker and less financially secure. Almost every law they pass and every judge they appoint backs large companies at the expense of those who work for these companies. If they had full control, most of the nation would be utterly screwed - and they're exceedingly close to having full control.
    Not sure if directed at me, but I didn't vote for Trump and because I don't think he (or nearly any politician) lacks an agenda I called for these stipulations prior to the reform passing. I was not happy when it passed without them. So this isn't naivete or MMQB stuff here. I'm benefitting today from the reform, but unless these savings make their way to the working class there will be downside - financial and political.

  3. #11903
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    I think the point Maynerd was making, which I understand you don't agree with, is that using language like "a parasitic collection of human tissue and DNA" does nothing to influence those on the other side of the ledger. In fact, it makes them more likely to resist seeing your POV. Now, I'm not sure how much using softer language will touch the hearts and minds of pro-lifers, but I'm pretty confident this is non-productive to counter-productive at best. That doesn't seem important to you, probably because you also doubt whether that matters or not. But if I were strategizing, I'd be less cynical towards the opposing POV even if that didn't move the needle much or at all.
    You are right that I doubt it matters. I'm quite confident it does not. Plus I'm not strategizing or trying to change hearts and minds. I'm just posting opinions on a message board.

  4. #11904
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    No. He should support the mother and child.
    Then, how can he be left out of the decision? It's her body...her choice. But it's not her responsibility?

    That can't be right.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  5. #11905
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Then, how can he be left out of the decision? It's her body...her choice. But it's not her responsibility?

    That can't be right.
    So you are saying men should be able to force women to have abortions.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  6. #11906
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Disagree. Why should he support the mother?
    Yeah, it was more of supporting the child through the mother, not the mother specifically.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  7. #11907
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Not sure if directed at me, but I didn't vote for Trump and because I don't think he (or nearly any politician) lacks an agenda I called for these stipulations prior to the reform passing. I was not happy when it passed without them. So this isn't naivete or MMQB stuff here. I'm benefitting today from the reform, but unless these savings make their way to the working class there will be downside - financial and political.
    I was responding to you but not “aiming” it at you. I’m aware you didn’t vote for Trump.

    I’m a white, (relatively) well educated, straight, married guy. Trump’s “agenda” is probably quite good for me. I don’t vote in the US. But in the UK, I never voted for the party that would help me. In general, I don’t need the govt to help me. I voted for the people/parties that would help those who need help.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  8. #11908
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Then, how can he be left out of the decision? It's her body...her choice. But it's not her responsibility?

    That can't be right.
    I know it’s hard for us men to realise the world isn’t always designed to make our lives the easiest. How will we survive?

    When it comes down to it, I believe women get to make that decision. I’d prefer the decision to be a joint one as ideally, the two people would be in a living, respectful relationship. But in the end, the women gets the final say.

    The abortion discussion is a difficult and nuanced one but the law is simple: a women’s right to make decisions about her body and health is hers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    So you are saying men should be able to force women to have abortions.
    And there is the other end. I don’t have the right to make her have an abortion and I don’t have the right to stop her.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  9. #11909
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    So you are saying men should be able to force women to have abortions.
    Nope. I'm saying that if it's solely her choice, she can't hold HIM financially accountable for HER decision.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  10. #11910
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Nope. I'm saying that if it's solely her choice, she can't hold HIM financially accountable for HER decision.
    She can't and doesn't have to. The law holds him financially accountable for his child. It's about the rights of the child at that point not the mother.

  11. #11911
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Jenna Johnson‏Verified account @wpjenna
    Sarah Huckabee Sanders explains why John Kelly looked so uncomfortable as President Trump attacked Germany over breakfast in Brussels: "He was expecting a full breakfast and there were only pastries and cheese."
    Oh great. First Trump attacks Germany then Kelly attacks the continental breakfast. What is wrong with these people?

  12. #11912
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    She can't and doesn't have to. The law holds him financially accountable for his child. It's about the rights of the child at that point not the mother.
    So, her body, her choice, HIS wallet?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  13. #11913
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    The federal law is relatively simple: it states a woman has the right to make decisions about her own body.
    Up to a point.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  14. #11914
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    So, her body, her choice, HIS wallet?
    Interesting view of children you have there.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  15. #11915
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Interesting view of children you have there.
    My point is that when we say "her body, her choice," we're oversimplifying an equation that has a LOT of variables in it.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  16. #11916
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    You are right that I doubt it matters. I'm quite confident it does not. Plus I'm not strategizing or trying to change hearts and minds. I'm just posting opinions on a message board.
    I have to agree with you completely. There is no reason for you to withhold your opinion on this board, even if False1's comment about the reaction of the opposition is valid, and it probably is.

    At the same time, I think you would agree that your attitude is atypical of the young potential mother-to-be who has to wrestle with the implications of this "choice." Few of those who have actually done it would equate it to a wardrobe choice. Yes, I'm male, and I have never been directly involved in an abortion, but in my 65 years I have been very close to a few women who have. It is no accident that most of these share the same substance abuse issues I have. A very few are inured to it, and take it more or less casually. The worst example in this regard I knew was a girl who had had multiple procedures and really seemed not to care--and this goes back to pre-Roe when it was illegal. So there really is nothing about making it illegal that stops this from happening.

    She was the exception. In every other case there was deep internal conflict, remorse, questioning, and sometimes, regret. Women who have abortions are not, as a rule, heartless or indifferent, and pro-lifers who characterize them that way are truly unfair. If I were the father in such a case, and I certainly sweated out the rabbit test more than once, I would hope my position would be heard, but I could never impose my will over hers in either direction. For the right reasons or not, it is her choice.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  17. #11917
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    You are right that I doubt it matters. I'm quite confident it does not. Plus I'm not strategizing or trying to change hearts and minds. I'm just posting opinions on a message board.
    I'm not trying to say that your posts on this board have geopolotical significance, on this topic or others. But clearly this vernacular when discussing opposition to pro-lifers is not limited to you or this board. That's more the point I was making.

  18. #11918
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    My point is that when we say "her body, her choice," we're oversimplifying an equation that has a LOT of variables in it.
    I think the opposite. I think that you are complicating an equation that should be very simple. As long as the zygote, embryo, morula, blastocyst, fetus or whatever term you choose to use is dependent on the host, the host makes the medical decisions. If a woman chooses to involve others in her medical decisions, that is also her choice. Once there is a child, they have the same rights as any other child and that means both parents are held financially responsible. We do not hold children accountable for the actions of their parents be it at the border or in Iowa or Colorado or anywhere else.

  19. #11919
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    My point is that when we say "her body, her choice," we're oversimplifying an equation that has a LOT of variables in it.
    Their sex, their wallets would be more appropriate.


    But then a man doesn't have to carry the baby for 9 months inside of him and risk all the complications associated with pregnancy.


    But what about a girl who wants an abortion but can't get one because the State says it is illegal. Does the state pay all of her medical bills during the pregnacy and delivery. and then take the child to raise?
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  20. #11920
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/inves...=.bd1aa313ad31

    Supreme Court nominee Brett M. Kavanaugh incurred tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt buying baseball tickets over the past decade and at times reported liabilities that could have exceeded the value of his cash accounts and investment assets, according to a review of Kavanaugh’s financial disclosures and information provided by the White House.

    White House spokesman Raj Shah told The Washington Post that Kavanaugh built up the debt by buying Washington Nationals season tickets and tickets for playoff games for himself and a “handful” of friends.
    Can you imagine how much debt he would have if he had ever had to buy tickets beyond the NLDS?

  21. #11921
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Extremely poor taste, and inappropriate.
    Forcing women to give birth and possibly die as a result is in extremely poor taste, and inappropriate, so I guess things are even.

  22. #11922
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    A few thoughts on abortion:

    1. I think people on the pro-choice side are too dismissive sometimes of the core argument of those who are pro life.

    2. The pro life people don't really help in that regard with their rhetoric, which I think is often too aggressively and inarticulately expressed.

    3. An argument can be made that based on their beliefs, the extreme rhetoric is justified, and, in fact, that they do not go further brings up questions about their morality if they wholeheartedly believe what they say.

    4. The position of "against abortion except in cases of rape and incest," which is very common, is nonsensical and logically inconsistent. I understand the viewpoint of against abortion in all cases far more than I understand that.

    5. I personally have moral questions with abortion, but I don't think the answer to my moral questions is anywhere near clear enough to justify taking the decision away from women.

    6. The question of abortion is often closely tied to religion, but I've never really understood that.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  23. #11923
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    1. I think people on the pro-choice side are too dismissive sometimes of the core argument of those who are pro life.
    Honest question - do you apply this to all rights? If so, fair enough. But I've not found that to be the case for most people. The right to an abortion has been the law of the land for 45 years now. Why do we still have to have some sense of deference for people that oppose it? If someone argues for segregating schools or wants to own a few slaves or says women shouldn't be allowed to vote, are you just as understanding of their core argument? Is there anything they could say that might convince you that those rights should be taken away? Why should the right to an abortion be any different?

  24. #11924
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Honest question - do you apply this to all rights? If so, fair enough. But I've not found that to be the case for most people. The right to an abortion has been the law of the land for 45 years now. Why do we still have to have some sense of deference for people that oppose it? If someone argues for segregating schools or wants to own a few slaves or says women shouldn't be allowed to vote, are you just as understanding of their core argument? Is there anything they could say that might convince you that those rights should be taken away? Why should the right to an abortion be any different?
    I suppose it's just that I comprehend the argument, or at least a form of it, more with this issue than with many of the others you mentioned. There are issues I don't think can coherently be argued for, (pro slavery, anti-gay marriage, pro school segregation, anti-women voting), while I think the pro life perspective can coherently be argued for.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  25. #11925
    NYYF Cy Young

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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    The Fort Meyers Police Department has a real-life Farva from Super Troopers:

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/offbe...ing/ar-AAzCutA

    A police officer’s complaint that food he ordered came topped with dirt sparked an internal probe at Burger King, which concluded the gritty substance was likely just a seasoning mix.

    “I was the Officer who was served a burger at Burger King a 4004 Cleveland Avenue in Ft Myers with dirt in it. At first I thought it was just burned bacon, I was hungry and ate the burger. At the last bite I saw dirt and grit on the burger. In disgust I threw it out the window,” Fort Myers Police Officer Tim McCormick wrote on Facebook earlier this week.

    The social media post quickly went viral, prompting calls for a boycott as well as an internal investigation at the Florida Burger King. A review of surveillance video in the kitchen from the day the officer received his food cleared the staff of wrong-doing, said Dan Fitzpatrick, CEO and Chairman of Quality Dining Inc., the franchisee that operates the fast food joint.
    But apparently the officer wasn't convinced, pointing to dubious evidence:

    In the Facebook post, which has since been deleted, McCormick also said his receipt had the word police written in big black letters across the top — something that has not happened in his previous visits...

    Fiztpatrick told USA today the “POLICE” label McCormick referenced is part of the regular identity process for customers. “Every one of our guests we ask ‘May we have your name to better serve you?’” he noted.

    When the Burger King employee parroted the line to McCormick, he did not give his name but rather just said officer. Fitzpatrick said the drive-thru worker would have been able to see the officer’s marked cruiser through the window and likely labeled him accordingly.
    Between that, and the fact that he tossed his only evidence out the window, this guy's never making Detective.
    Jingoism is not Patriotism

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