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  1. #8776
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    If that's the case, why do the Teachers Unions insist on education degrees to teach in public schools? Doesn't that narrow the pool you are picking from? Someone with a degree in math or science or business or history generally can't get a job as a public school teacher, unless they have the requisite education credits.

    I've taught college math classes. But, I'm not qualified to teach 7th grade math.
    with all due respect, teaching young adults in college who want to learn is a completely different ball game to teaching teenagers who have no desire to be there. I've watched a good handful of college professors fall apart in front of ten 12 year olds.

    70% of my degree was not content. it was teaching skills. the ability to manage 30 students, who are on completely different levels, while two kids are trying to opt from each other. the ability to predict which of my students were going to struggling with mixed numbers while five of my students would thirty seconds before fully understanding the concept and being ready for the next step.

    these are not comparable things. people think teaching is subject knowledge. it's not. it's about understanding how everyone in front of you learns differently and how you are going to provide them with access to the concept that need conveying.

    how i teach fifth grade is fundamentally different to how i teach second grade. and both of those are fundamentally different to how i teach sixth grade.

    teaching degrees are vital because teaching is the skill that is most prized. not how well you know your own subject knowledge.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
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  2. #8777
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    with all due respect, teaching young adults in college who want to learn is a completely different ball game to teaching teenagers who have no desire to be there. I've watched a good handful of college professors fall apart in front of ten 12 year olds.

    70% of my degree was not content. it was teaching skills. the ability to manage 30 students, who are on completely different levels, while two kids are trying to opt from each other. the ability to predict which of my students were going to struggling with mixed numbers while five of my students would thirty seconds before fully understanding the concept and being ready for the next step.

    these are not comparable things. people think teaching is subject knowledge. it's not. it's about understanding how everyone in front of you learns differently and how you are going to provide them with access to the concept that need conveying.

    how i teach fifth grade is fundamentally different to how i teach second grade. and both of those are fundamentally different to how i teach sixth grade.

    teaching degrees are vital because teaching is the skill that is most prized. not how well you know your own subject knowledge.
    Sixth grade is a monster. The kids start the year as children and end it as surly, oppositional adolescents. At least when they get to seventh grade you know what youíre dealing with.

  3. #8778
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    tests scores give you a small amount of insight into certain aspects of what a kid can remember. they rarely assess skills. in today's world, skills are the key.

    i always say a test gives you a photograph when you should be using a 3D video.
    Iíve done a lot of IQ testing. It can be incredibly informative, but I always start my interpretation with the premise that itís a set of scores on a test on that particular day. As you say, itís a snapshot, and if you took the picture the day before or the day after, things might not look quite the same.

  4. #8779
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Maynerd, you've said this many times, but I have a couple of questions about it.

    1. Why do you think it's the union that insists on your having an education degree? Teacher certification standards are set by the state, not by collective bargaining with the union (which is at the district level). In general, unions have little or nothing to do with hiring practices; they come into the picture after someone's already been hired.

    2. Colorado has alternative teaching license procedures specifically for people like you. Yes, you still have to take coursework in education, but you can already be teaching while you do that. You might be interested in that path. https://www.teachercertificationdegr...o-alternative/
    this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I agree. I'm just pointing out that the argument that we're decreasing the sample size of potential teachers is constrained by much more than salary considerations.I don't think that's overlooked. It certaintly isn't overlooked in Colorado. Almost every school district has a convoluted pay scale, where teachers earn more not only with increased experience, but with certain on-going educational requirements. My school district has about a dozen "ladders." Your ladder is based on your education, and you go up the rungs as you accumulate years of experience. But, if you complete a Masters Degree, or even a certain number of credits toward that Masters, you can move from one ladder to the next. Add to that copious Teacher Training Days, where students are away from the school, but the staff attends various training activities, and I'd contend that on-going training gets significantly more attention today than it did a generation ago.
    in the UK, there are two ways to become a teacher: an education degree (what I have) or a degree plus a one year teaching course called a PGCE (post graduate certificate of education)

    that second option is brutal. my degree was brutal compared to most but the the PGCE is insane. i knew quite a few people who did the degree plus PGCE and all said they started teaching miles behind their education degree colleagues. they frequently said they felt it took a few years to catch up. on the flip side, PGCE teachers were often a little older, more settled in their life with more life experience.

    (one principle said i was the golden egg: a mature-ish teacher who had an education degree and was male. this was a rare combination. that got me job interviews and at least one job.)

    - - -

    and yes, my district has multiple pay ladders. my colleagues currently doing their masters in education are learning stuff that was teacher 101 in my first year of my education degree.

    as for training days, they can be a waste of time. but they can also be vital. in january, we spent two hours looking at new computer programs to help support ELA learning. excellent and highly useful. in october, we sat in a meeting where the most "experienced" teachers bitched about a new program being brought in. completely pointless.

    - - -

    some random thoughts:

    - students in the US need to be in school more. 180/181 days isn't enough.

    - 75%-90% of the homework your kid is doing is pointless. wanna improve your kids' education, get your district to stop it. it is "busy work" for kids and time consuming for teachers who could use that time far more productively.

    - way too many tests. i give more tests in one week over here than i would in a year back home. if you are constantly testing kids, all you're teaching kids is how to do tests. they cram, test and forgot. waste of time.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  5. #8780
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Sixth grade is a monster. The kids start the year as children and end it as surly, oppositional adolescents. At least when they get to seventh grade you know what youíre dealing with.
    this happens in fifth grade. "spring monsters" is a phrase commonly used. in the last three weeks, my fifth grade class has gone from cute elementary kids to teenager with attitude.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Iíve done a lot of IQ testing. It can be incredibly informative, but I always start my interpretation with the premise that itís a set of scores on a test on that particular day. As you say, itís a snapshot, and if you took the picture the day before or the day after, things might not look quite the same.
    this year, i have literally told parents of kids i'm teaching: ignore the grade your kid got, he was fundamentally better at [insert subject] this marking period when he got a B than when he got an A in the previous marking period. he got a bad grade cos he screwed up one test and that shifted his overall grade by six percent from an A to a B.

    in wales, we dumped standardised testing cos the high schools kept saying "this kid doesn't match their grade". "tracking levels" are far more accurate, reliable and considerably less stressful for the kids involved.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  6. #8781
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    teaching degrees are vital because teaching is the skill that is most prized. not how well you know your own subject knowledge.
    I wasn't trying to belittle teaching degrees. If you took my comment as such, rest assure, it wasn't my intent. I just think that a certain mix of teaching degrees and folks with relevant experience would be best, particularly in Middle and High School, when kids have multiple classes. K-5, where one teacher is dealing with the same set of kids and multiple subjects? Teaching degrees are likely vital there.

    My comment was based on the observation that the sub-set of those willing to take teaching on as a career was constrained by the salary. It's ALSO constrained by barriers to entry.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  7. #8782
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I wasn't trying to belittle teaching degrees. If you took my comment as such, rest assure, it wasn't my intent. I just think that a certain mix of teaching degrees and folks with relevant experience would be best, particularly in Middle and High School, when kids have multiple classes. K-5, where one teacher is dealing with the same set of kids and multiple subjects? Teaching degrees are likely vital there.

    My comment was based on the observation that the sub-set of those willing to take teaching on as a career was constrained by the salary. It's ALSO constrained by barriers to entry.
    But itís not a barrier to entry, because you can still get yourself certified.

    And itís not a union issue.

  8. #8783
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    But itís not a barrier to entry, because you can still get yourself certified.
    Still a barrier to entry. Perhaps not an insurmountable barrier, but a barrier nonetheless. Using your logic, salary isn't a barrier either; you can still take a second job.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3
    And itís not a union issue.
    Not the union as a Collective Bargaining Unit, but the union as a lobbyist. The first things we teach people taking a degree in education is that new and fresh ideas aren't doable, and that only people with teaching degrees can teach. So we do things the same way, with the same unsatisfactory results.

    Not a fan.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  9. #8784
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Still a barrier to entry. Perhaps not an insurmountable barrier, but a barrier nonetheless. Using your logic, salary isn't a barrier either; you can still take a second job.

    Not the union as a Collective Bargaining Unit, but the union as a lobbyist. The first things we teach people taking a degree in education is that new and fresh ideas aren't doable, and that only people with teaching degrees can teach. So we do things the same way, with the same unsatisfactory results.

    Not a fan.
    As to your first point: huh? Yes, you still have to learn something about teaching. That's not arbitrary, itís because your knowledge of math isnít enough for you to be a good teacher. You figure that high school math is easier than college math, so teaching high school math should be easier than teaching college math. The problem is that teaching high school requires different skills.

    As to your second: do you have any evidence that the union as a lobbying unit is a significant factor here, or even that they liobby for that at all? Again, hiring criteria are typically not a union issue.

  10. #8785
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Still a barrier to entry. Perhaps not an insurmountable barrier, but a barrier nonetheless. Using your logic, salary isn't a barrier either; you can still take a second job.

    Not the union as a Collective Bargaining Unit, but the union as a lobbyist. The first things we teach people taking a degree in education is that new and fresh ideas aren't doable, and that only people with teaching degrees can teach. So we do things the same way, with the same unsatisfactory results.

    Not a fan.
    I believe you can still teach at private schools without the qualification and then after suitable period of private school school experience the qualifications requirements are deemed met. I haven't looked into all the rules but I think they work something like that.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  11. #8786

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    https://www.vox.com/policy-and-polit...y-of-state-tax

    Secretary of State Rex Tillersonís pride might be hurt by his forced ouster on Tuesday, but his pocketbook wonít be. The former ExxonMobil CEO will still get to enjoy the millions of dollars in tax deferrals he got when he joined the Trump administration in the first place, even though he spent just a little over a year on the job.

    Tillerson and Exxon reached an agreement when then President-elect Donald Trump tapped Tillerson to head the State Department. The deal outlined steps for Tillerson to sever all ties with the company to comply with conflict-of-interest requirements while at the same time defining what he was to do with his multi-million-dollar retirement package and hundreds of thousands of Exxon shares.

    As a result, Tillerson got a major tax break ó and is one of several Trump Cabinet appointees with immense personal wealth who did so. Heíll continue to benefit from that arrangement even after he leaves the public sector.

    Tillerson agreed to sell off the more than 600,000 Exxon shares he owned at the time, valued at about $54 million, and place the proceeds in a trust prohibited from investing in the company. Thanks to a federal ethics law that allows executive branch appointees and employees to defer taxes when they are forced to sell certain assets, he was able to avoid paying taxes on the immediate sale.

    Even though Tillerson was fired by thepresident on Tuesday, that tax advantage still sticks.
    Per the agreement with Exxon, the value of more than 2 million deferred Exxon shares that Tillerson would have received over the next 10 years as part of his compensation were put into an independently managed trust. That money will become available to him gradually over the course of a decade. It is also subject to the capital gains tax deferrals for executive branch officials and employees.

    That agreement doesnít change because Tillerson was fired. Even though Tillerson spent a year at the State Department, he still gets the tax benefits for 10.
    The feminist agenda ... encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson 1992

  12. #8787

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Iíve done a lot of IQ testing. It can be incredibly informative, but I always start my interpretation with the premise that itís a set of scores on a test on that particular day. As you say, itís a snapshot, and if you took the picture the day before or the day after, things might not look quite the same.
    Are you a school psychologist? Just curious.

  13. #8788

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I believe you can still teach at private schools without the qualification and then after suitable period of private school school experience the qualifications requirements are deemed met. I haven't looked into all the rules but I think they work something like that.
    It varies by state.

  14. #8789
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Are you a school psychologist? Just curious.
    I was a school psychologist. Iím in a hospital setting now, but I still test some kids. Not as many as I did as a school psychologist, of course.

  15. #8790

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Still a barrier to entry. Perhaps not an insurmountable barrier, but a barrier nonetheless. Using your logic, salary isn't a barrier either; you can still take a second job.

    Not the union as a Collective Bargaining Unit, but the union as a lobbyist. The first things we teach people taking a degree in education is that new and fresh ideas aren't doable, and that only people with teaching degrees can teach. So we do things the same way, with the same unsatisfactory results.

    Not a fan.
    Public districts are controlled by political appointees. As such, they are subject to corruption and cronyism.

    I believe that New York City was the first public school district to institute rigorous qualifying requirements fo teachers, which included not only a degree in education but also passing a test and interview. The purpose was to insure fairness in hiring but also to eliminate cronyism and corruption in appointments.

    Removing certification requirements would open the doors to practices of the past which gave jobs to unqualified candidates at the expense of the kids.

    Many states have developed alternative pathways to certification in order to recruit the best and brightest - especially in critical shortage areas like math and science. Such programs typically provide some kind of preparation for such teachers in the summer preceding their first teaching assignment, provide ongoing supports during the first couple of years of teaching, and a requirement that the new teachers begin taking graduate courses in education immediately.

    Using college employment as a model is not a convincing argument. One of the worst thing about college professorships is that they are viewed as experts in their subject rather than as ďteachersĒ of their subject. Preparing an effective presentation issimply a different skill set than being an expert in physics, or chemistry, or bio-medical engineering. And thatís only the lecture component. Leading a seminar is awhole different skill set entirely all over again.

    The fact that colleges hires professors who are unqualified to teach despite being experts in their field is not a reason to compound the problem by extending that same misguided practice into K-12 education.

  16. #8791

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I was a school psychologist. Iím in a hospital setting now, but I still test some kids. Not as many as I did as a school psychologist, of course.
    I was also a school psychologist and later a school administrator. I began my career working as a psychologist in hospitals and clinics. Nice to have some things in common with you.

  17. #8792
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    I was also a school psychologist and later a school administrator. I began my career working as a psychologist in hospitals and clinics. Nice to have some things in common with you.
    Casey At The Bat is also a school psychologist.

  18. #8793
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Removing certification requirements would open the doors to practices of the past which gave jobs to unqualified candidates at the expense of the kids.
    Certification requirements created a definition for 'qualified.' But there are thousands of 'qualified' teachers who are terrible. Isn't that also at the expense of the kids? If qualification standards still result in bad teachers, what are we achieving?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  19. #8794

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Certification requirements created a definition for 'qualified.' But there are thousands of 'qualified' teachers who are terrible. Isn't that also at the expense of the kids? If qualification standards still result in bad teachers, what are we achieving?
    Of course itís at the expense of kids. What we are achieving with qualification standards is to minimize the number of bad teachers, a situation which arises primarily in the most demanding situations where there are teacher shortages even in the best of times.

    Every human enterprise has human error. We canít eliminate that, only minimize it. Iím not willing to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. We can only continually try to make system wherever we find it more effective. I canít see the point in throwing up our hands and giving up simply because the system doesnít perfectly screen out every single ineffective or less effective teaching candidate.

    Ironically, when the rare terrorist seeking to commit mayhem slips through our screening process, the response is not to throw up our hands and say that theyíre going to get through anyway, so why bother. The current administration wants an even younger screening process a wall along our border, damn the cost. We should take the approach to our schools by making the screening process even more effective and by providing even more supports to teachers in our most challenging situations, damn the cost.

    Teaching is not an act that happens in isolation. Itís an interaction that involves both teaching and learning. If learning doesnít occur, we look for someone to blame, i.e. ďbad teachersĒ. When children come to school ready to learn, there are typically positive outcomes even when they are not instructed by the best teachers. Inmore challenging situations, some come to school not ready to learn while others show up only sporadically. In such situations, we are pressed to achieve the desired outcomes.

    Too often politicians come up with quick fixes and gimmicks. Critics blame ďfailing schoolsĒ. Schools are a community venture. As such, the evaluation needs to look at the community effort. Instead, we hand off the responsibility to teachers and then look the other way, hoping for the best.

  20. #8795

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Casey At The Bat is also a school psychologist.
    OMG, weíre everywhere.

  21. #8796
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...&ICID=ref_fark

    Not the best day for Paul Manafort
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  22. #8797
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Teaching is not an act that happens in isolation. Itís an interaction that involves both teaching and learning. If learning doesnít occur, we look for someone to blame, i.e. ďbad teachersĒ. When children come to school ready to learn, there are typically positive outcomes even when they are not instructed by the best teachers. Inmore challenging situations, some come to school not ready to learn while others show up only sporadically. In such situations, we are pressed to achieve the desired outcomes.

    Too often politicians come up with quick fixes and gimmicks. Critics blame ďfailing schoolsĒ. Schools are a community venture. As such, the evaluation needs to look at the community effort. Instead, we hand off the responsibility to teachers and then look the other way, hoping for the best.
    Of course. "Failing schools" are mostly situated in under-educated, lower income neighborhoods. Go figure. Parents who don't read to their young children, households with no books in them, disinterested parents. To blame the teachers when this is the sort of home environment the kids have is crazy.

    I've gone back and forth with this with JL for a long time now. I question the model that says if a kid is 9 years old, he belongs in 4th Grade. When we move a kid through the system, based on nothing more than his age, we're handcuffing the teacher. You can't teach 5th Grade grammar and math and such to a kid who hasn't mastered the basic concepts of 4th grade (not to mention 3rd grade). But, even the suggestion of educational standards will be met with "you can't do it that way" by anyone who's been indoctrinated through a teaching degree.

    It just seems we teach our future teachers that the only way to proceed is to continue doing things the way they've been (unsuccessfully) done for years. Worse, we force the teachers into that failed model, and give them fewer resources to use to succeed. Then, we act shocked when Standardized Test scores indicate the kids aren't learning.

    And that's why we have kids in High School who can't read. Tell me the presence of these kids (the ones who aren't ready to learn or willing to learn) isn't to the detriment of the kids who want to actually learn.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  23. #8798
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Manafort hasn't had a "best day" in a long time.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  24. #8799
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Casey At The Bat is also a school psychologist.
    This confused me for a few minutes.

    I was caught up in Ernest Lawrence Thayer. The outcome wasn't brilliant for the Mudville nine that day...

    It took me a few moments to realize you were referring to a member of our little community, and not the poem.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  25. #8800

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post

    Teaching is not an act that happens in isolation. Itís an interaction that involves both teaching and learning. If learning doesnít occur, we look for someone to blame, i.e. ďbad teachersĒ. When children come to school ready to learn, there are typically positive outcomes even when they are not instructed by the best teachers. Inmore challenging situations, some come to school not ready to learn while others show up only sporadically. In such situations, we are pressed to achieve the desired outcomes.
    Good post Bill. I especially liked the quoted paragraph. There is a lot of talk about teaching but not enough about learning. We all know that kids learn in different ways and at different rates. The problem comes with how to make that work in a classroom setting with one teacher and 20+ kids. I am particularly intrigued by self-paced learning and would like to see it more strongly embraced and integrated into more classrooms. It's obviously important to know which students it would work for and which would do better with a more traditional teaching style. There are a lot of alternative teaching styles that should be implemented but I think teachers are afraid to try them for fear of failure.
    The feminist agenda ... encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson 1992

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