+ Reply to Thread
Page 881 of 919 FirstFirst ... 381 781 831 871 878 879 880 881 882 883 884 891 ... LastLast
Results 22,001 to 22,025 of 22968
  1. #22001
    Administrator Bub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    The Boonies

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    No one forced these people to try to sneak into a country illegally. I feel bad for the kids, whose parents would make such a reckless decision.
    These parents are in countries with little food, high crime, no jobs and live in danger for the lives of themselves and their children on a daily basis. How could you possibly call them reckless for taking a chance on coming here?
    Let the kids play.

  2. #22002
    Hope is eternal
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    CT

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    These parents are in countries with little food, high crime, no jobs and live in danger for the lives of themselves and their children on a daily basis. How could you possibly call them reckless for taking a chance on coming here?
    That is when you get when Trump and state media feed the base crap like this. And the sad thing is we are partly to blame with our endless bombings over the years for their plight. They come here because they have no choice. It is risk co int here or more likely die.
    The sky is falling! We are doomed!

  3. #22003

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    No one forced these people to try to sneak into a country illegally. I feel bad for the kids, whose parents would make such a reckless decision.
    What about the ones who are not sneaking in illegally? The ones who were forced to leave their homes, to flee their country because of a collapsing economy and violence that made it unsafe.

    Both American and international law protects the rights of people in these circumstances to seek asylum. What about these legal asylum seekers who have been illegally abused by officials of our country?

    I donít know how your ancestors came to be here, but mine came here from Ireland where they faced starvation and were experiencing the destruction of their country by an occupying force. They were desperate people who had nowhere else to go. These Central Americans are facing desperate circumstances just like the ones my ancestors came from. Knowing my familyís history makes me sympathetic to these asylum seekers.

    The asylum laws were put in place after WW II as a result of the Holocaust. 12 million people died. They had nowhere else to go.

  4. #22004
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    No one forced these people to try to sneak into a country illegally. I feel bad for the kids, whose parents would make such a reckless decision.
    As I said before, theyíre not criminals in the US if they havenít been convicted of a crime. And even convicted criminals here canít legally be treated that way.

  5. #22005

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    These parents are in countries with little food, high crime, no jobs and live in danger for the lives of themselves and their children on a daily basis. How could you possibly call them reckless for taking a chance on coming here?
    It's reckless because they didn't attempt to immigrate through legal means. The last thing anyone should do is become a criminal in a foreign country. Not wise.

    My grandparents came here from post-WW2 Italy. They were living in condemned buildings in Italy in extreme poverty. 14 of my grandmother's 16 siblings died of starvation and disease in early childhood. She, her husband, her brother, and her sister came here on a ship, in steerage. They went through Ellis Island, and immediately began the long process of applying for citizenship. They became citizens, and by the late 1950s, my grandfather was making a good living as a union construction worker. Everything done legally.

  6. #22006

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    As I said before, they’re not criminals in the US if they haven’t been convicted of a crime. And even convicted criminals here can’t legally be treated that way.
    If you're in this country and you don't have legal standing to be here, that is a crime.
    If you are accused of a crime in this country, you automatically go to jail and you remain there until the end of your trial. You are only released before your trial if a judge decides to set bail and that bail is posted, or if you are released by the judge on your own recognizance.

  7. #22007
    NYYF Legend

    Yankee Tripper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Left coast

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    It's reckless because they didn't attempt to immigrate through legal means. The last thing anyone should do is become a criminal in a foreign country. Not wise.

    My grandparents came here from post-WW2 Italy. They were living in condemned buildings in Italy in extreme poverty. 14 of my grandmother's 16 siblings died of starvation and disease in early childhood. She, her husband, her brother, and her sister came here on a ship, in steerage. They went through Ellis Island, and immediately began the long process of applying for citizenship. They became citizens, and by the late 1950s, my grandfather was making a good living as a union construction worker. Everything done legally.
    So comparing immigrating when it was fairly easy compared to what it is today.


    Both my sets of grand parents left Europe one to escape poverty in Ireland the other to avoid what they say was the signs of the coming of World War I in Lithuania. I'm glad Trump wasn't running the country then.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  8. #22008
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    If you're in this country and you don't have legal standing to be here, that is a crime.
    If you are accused of a crime in this country, you automatically go to jail and you remain there until the end of your trial. You are only released before your trial if a judge decides to set bail and that bail is posted, or if you are released by the judge on your own recognizance.
    No, itís not necessarily a crime. If you are seeking asylum, itís legal for you to be here.

    And no, the default isnít that youíre put in jail unless the judge has mercy on you. The default is that you get to go home - because youíre not a criminal - unless the judge decides thereís some reason you shouldnít. Itís unfortunate that most of the time some bail is set, but thatís changing.

    Edit: being in the US without legal standing is not, in fact, a crime. Itís a civil offense, punishable by deportation but not imprisonments. Entering the country illegally is a misdemeanor, but being here is not.

  9. #22009
    Administrator Bub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    The Boonies

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    It's reckless because they didn't attempt to immigrate through legal means...
    How exactly do you know that? If they do their best to immigrate legally, and have to wait so long that seeking asylum is their only alternative when conditions are bleak, how do you turn them away? These are people like you and I, not sub-humans like Trump makes them out to be.
    Let the kids play.

  10. #22010

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    No, it’s not necessarily a crime. If you are seeking asylum, it’s legal for you to be here.

    And no, the default isn’t that you’re put in jail unless the judge has mercy on you. The default is that you get to go home - because you’re not a criminal - unless the judge decides there’s some reason you shouldn’t. It’s unfortunate that most of the time some bail is set, but that’s changing.

    Edit: being in the US without legal standing is not, in fact, a crime. It’s a civil offense, punishable by deportation but not imprisonments. Entering the country illegally is a misdemeanor, but being here is not.
    If you are seeking asylum, you legally need to apply for it in the first foreign country you enter after leaving the country you are fleeing. So the only people who can legally apply for asylum in the US after entering through the southern border, are Mexican nationals.

    As for the rest of it - there are plenty of US Citizens in jails RIGHT NOW who have not been convicted of anything. DWI is immediate incarceration in most jurisdictions, held without bail. They won't let you go home for all the tea in China. I don't think you've ever been arrested. People are treated very badly.

  11. #22011

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    By the way, this is how someone applies for asylum WITHOUT being detained:

    "To obtain asylum through the affirmative asylum process you must be physically present in the United States. You may apply for asylum status regardless of how you arrived in the United States or your current immigration status.

    You must apply for asylum within one year of the date of their last arrival in the United States, unless you can show:

    Changed circumstances that materially affect your eligibility for asylum or extraordinary circumstances relating to the delay in filing
    You filed within a reasonable amount of time given those circumstances.
    You may apply for affirmative asylum by submitting Form I-589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal, to USCIS. See Form I 589, Application for Asylum and for Withholding of Removal for instructions on how to file for asylum.

    If your case is not approved and you do not have a legal immigration status, we will issue a Form I-862, Notice to Appear, and forward (or refer) your case to an Immigration Judge at the Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR). The Immigration Judge conducts a ‘de novo’ hearing of the case. This means that the judge conducts a new hearing and issues a decision that is independent of the decision made by USCIS. If we do not have jurisdiction over your case, the Asylum Office will issue an I-863, Notice of Referral to Immigration Judge, for an asylum-only hearing. See ‘Defensive Asylum Processing With EOIR’ below if this situation applies to you.

    Affirmative asylum applicants are rarely detained by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE). You may live in the United States while your application is pending before USCIS. If you are found ineligible, you can remain in the United States while your application is pending with the Immigration Judge. Most asylum applicants are not authorized to work."


    https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/r...-united-states

  12. #22012

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    This is what happens when someone enters illegally, does not apply for asylum, gets caught by ICE as an illegal immigrant, and THEN decides that they needed asylum after all:

    A defensive application for asylum occurs when you request asylum as a defense against removal from the U.S. For asylum processing to be defensive, you must be in removal proceedings in immigration court with the Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR).

    Individuals are generally placed into defensive asylum processing in one of two ways:∑

    They are referred to an Immigration Judge by USCIS after they have been determined to be ineligible for asylum at the end of the affirmative asylum process, or
    They are placed in removal proceedings because they:
    Were apprehended (or caught) in the United States or at a U.S. port of entry without proper legal documents or in violation of their immigration status,
    OR
    Were caught by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) trying to enter the United States without proper documentation, were placed in the expedited removal process, and were found to have a credible fear of persecution or torture by an Asylum Officer. See Questions & Answers: Credible Fear Screenings for more information on the Credible Fear Process.
    Immigration Judges hear defensive asylum cases in adversarial (courtroom-like) proceedings. The judge will hear arguments from both of the following parties:

    The individual (and his or her attorney, if represented)∑
    The U.S. Government, which is represented by an attorney from Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
    The Immigration Judge then decides whether the individual is eligible for asylum. If found eligible, the Immigration Judge will order asylum to be granted. If found ineligible for asylum, the Immigration Judge will determine whether the individual is eligible for any other forms of relief from removal. If found ineligible for other forms of relief, the Immigration Judge will order the individual to be removed from the United States. The Immigration Judge’s decision can be appealed by either party.


    https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/r...-united-states

  13. #22013
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    This is what happens when someone enters illegally, does not apply for asylum, gets caught by ICE as an illegal immigrant, and THEN decides that they needed asylum after all:

    A defensive application for asylum occurs when you request asylum as a defense against removal from the U.S. For asylum processing to be defensive, you must be in removal proceedings in immigration court with the Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR).

    Individuals are generally placed into defensive asylum processing in one of two ways:∑

    They are referred to an Immigration Judge by USCIS after they have been determined to be ineligible for asylum at the end of the affirmative asylum process, or
    They are placed in removal proceedings because they:
    Were apprehended (or caught) in the United States or at a U.S. port of entry without proper legal documents or in violation of their immigration status,
    OR
    Were caught by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) trying to enter the United States without proper documentation, were placed in the expedited removal process, and were found to have a credible fear of persecution or torture by an Asylum Officer. See Questions & Answers: Credible Fear Screenings for more information on the Credible Fear Process.
    Immigration Judges hear defensive asylum cases in adversarial (courtroom-like) proceedings. The judge will hear arguments from both of the following parties:

    The individual (and his or her attorney, if represented)∑
    The U.S. Government, which is represented by an attorney from Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
    The Immigration Judge then decides whether the individual is eligible for asylum. If found eligible, the Immigration Judge will order asylum to be granted. If found ineligible for asylum, the Immigration Judge will determine whether the individual is eligible for any other forms of relief from removal. If found ineligible for other forms of relief, the Immigration Judge will order the individual to be removed from the United States. The Immigration Judge’s decision can be appealed by either party.


    https://www.uscis.gov/humanitarian/r...-united-states
    Note that there are no criminal charges involved.

    Also, check 8 U.S. Code ß 1158:

    Any alien who is physically present in the United States or who arrives in the United States (whether or not at a designated port of arrival and including an alien who is brought to the United States after having been interdicted in international or United States waters), irrespective of such alien’s status, may apply for asylum in accordance with this section or, where applicable, section 1225(b) of this title.

    Paragraph (1) shall not apply to an alien if the Attorney General determines that the alien may be removed, pursuant to a bilateral or multilateral agreement, to a country (other than the country of the alien’s nationality or, in the case of an alien having no nationality, the country of the alien’s last habitual residence) in which the alien’s life or freedom would not be threatened on account of race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or political opinion, and where the alien would have access to a full and fair procedure for determining a claim to asylum or equivalent temporary protection, unless the Attorney General finds that it is in the public interest for the alien to receive asylum in the United States.
    So the AG can decide that a person is ineligible for asylum if he can shuffle it off to some other country. But your assertion that a person has to apply for asylum in the first country they reach is clearly incorrect. They can apply for asylum in the US if they're in the US.

    Also, it's still not a crime to be here illegally.

    Edit: I don't have a link to cite for this, but I'm willing to bet that virtually all of the people being held in concentration camps are charged with civil violations rather than crimes. The reason I say that is that, if they were charged with crimes, they would have to be tried in criminal court with all the rights and procedures that go with that. Instead, they're going to immigration courts.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  14. #22014

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Also, it's still not a crime to be here illegally.
    I don't understand that sentence. What does illegal mean, again?

  15. #22015
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    I don't understand that sentence. What does illegal mean, again?
    Illegal means against the law. It is not the same as criminal, which means against criminal law. There are many, many things that are illegal that are not crimes.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  16. #22016
    NYYF Legend

    ojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Canada's basement

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Ladies and gentlemen, ArodEra!
    "Be a voice, not an echo." - Albert Einstein

  17. #22017
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Someone else said that, too. I donít see it at all.

  18. #22018
    Released Outright
    Join Date
    Oct 2018

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Agreed. However, the two terms have been conflated.

    It's almost certainly a poor choice of words on AOC's part. Should it be a scandal? Absolutely not. Should it be an issue? Nope. Does it warrant anyone's time or attention? Not really.


    And the "never again" was even worse

    No , just anyone with any ethical sense. I have relatives who were in camps. In my neighborhood growing up, I recall meeting several people with those numbers tattooed on the inside of their forearms

    It was staggeringly stupid

  19. #22019
    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi3 View Post
    [/b]

    And the "never again" was even worse

    No , just anyone with any ethical sense. I have relatives who were in camps. In my neighborhood growing up, I recall meeting several people with those numbers tattooed on the inside of their forearms

    It was staggeringly stupid
    No it wasn't. The term existed well before the Holocaust. It was a correct and appropriate use.

  20. #22020

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    These parents are in countries with little food, high crime, no jobs and live in danger for the lives of themselves and their children on a daily basis. How could you possibly call them reckless for taking a chance on coming here?
    This all day. Which parent WOULDN'T take that risk for their children? I would. All day, every day, I would take that chance for my children.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    So comparing immigrating when it was fairly easy compared to what it is today.


    Both my sets of grand parents left Europe one to escape poverty in Ireland the other to avoid what they say was the signs of the coming of World War I in Lithuania. I'm glad Trump wasn't running the country then.
    They'd probably be ok since they were white. (Apologies if my assumption is incorrect.)

  21. #22021
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi3 View Post
    [/b]

    And the "never again" was even worse

    No , just anyone with any ethical sense. I have relatives who were in camps. In my neighborhood growing up, I recall meeting several people with those numbers tattooed on the inside of their forearms

    It was staggeringly stupid
    I have always considered it wrong to think of 'never again' as 'never again will we allow this to happen to Jews.' AOC's usage was, IMO, perfectly appropriate. Everything she said was spot on.

  22. #22022
    Hope is eternal
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    CT

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    https://beta.washingtonpost.com/outl...outputType=amp

    ďNever AgainĒ means nothing if holocaust analogies are always off limits
    The sky is falling! We are doomed!

  23. #22023

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I have always considered it wrong to think of 'never again' as 'never again will we allow this to happen to Jews.' AOC's usage was, IMO, perfectly appropriate. Everything she said was spot on.
    Read Night by Elie Wiesel and then tell me if you still think Holocaust comparisons are appropriate.

    Hitler was not enforcing immigration laws, or any laws at all. He was capturing ordinary law-abiding citizens like you and me, forcing them into slave labor, and if they became sick, couldn't work, of if the SS just felt like it, they were exterminated. The closest we ever came to this was the Japanese Internment Camps of FDR.

    But if you want to compare ordinary incarceration of people who willfully broke our immigration laws [and usually other laws] to Hitler's slave-labor death camps, then that's deeply troubling.

    There is an antisemitic sentiment emerging in the Democrat party that needs to be watched. First it was just Ilhan Omar's anti-Israel stance, then it was Gov. Cuomo's elimination of religious exemptions for vaccines that targeted the Orthodox Jewish community and deprived them of their 1st amendment right to freely practice their religion, and now AOC is walking on thin ice by trying to minimize the holocaust. It's rising quickly.

  24. #22024
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Tucker View Post
    Read Night by Elie Wiesel and then tell me if you still think Holocaust comparisons are appropriate.

    Hitler was not enforcing immigration laws, or any laws at all. He was capturing ordinary law-abiding citizens like you and me, forcing them into slave labor, and if they became sick, couldn't work, of if the SS just felt like it, they were exterminated. The closest we ever came to this was the Japanese Internment Camps of FDR.

    But if you want to compare ordinary incarceration of people who willfully broke our immigration laws [and usually other laws] to Hitler's slave-labor death camps, then that's deeply troubling.

    There is an antisemitic sentiment emerging in the Democrat party that needs to be watched. First it was just Ilhan Omar's anti-Israel stance, then it was Gov. Cuomo's elimination of religious exemptions for vaccines that targeted the Orthodox Jewish community and deprived them of their 1st amendment right to freely practice their religion, and now AOC is walking on thin ice by trying to minimize the holocaust. It's rising quickly.
    Nobody made a Holocaust comparison. Nobody made a comparison to slave-labor death camps. This post is just overheated misrepresentation.

    Also, the First Amendment gives completely free rein to religious belief, but not necessarily to religious practice. Practices that create a public health hazard may be restricted.

  25. #22025

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Nobody made a Holocaust comparison. Nobody made a comparison to slave-labor death camps. This post is just overheated misrepresentation.

    Also, the First Amendment gives completely free rein to religious belief, but not necessarily to religious practice. Practices that create a public health hazard may be restricted.
    You are wrong. The First Amendment:

    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

    Shall we force them to eat pork as well?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

     

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts