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  1. #2026

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Who do think was the source for the article?


    Regardless, would it be acceptable if Italian-American students asked for, and got, a dorm of their own? Would it be acceptable for whites? If not, why is it acceptable for blacks?


    At what point is protection of a culture over-stepping the lines of racial exclusion? And how on Earth can such an arrangement be propped up as diversity? There's nothing diverse about it.
    Did you read the school press release? Your article made up their own inaccurate interpretation. No one asked for or is getting a segregated dorm. No one is protecting a culture or excluding another. Google African American Living Learning Communities. Learn about LLCs in general. There is nothing unique or unusual about what they are doing.

  2. #2027

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Did you read the school press release? Your article made up their own inaccurate interpretation. No one asked for or is getting a segregated dorm. No one is protecting a culture or excluding another. Google African American Living Learning Communities. Learn about LLCs in general. There is nothing unique or unusual about what they are doing.
    Whether it is unique or not is irrelevant.

  3. #2028
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    No one asked for or is getting a segregated dorm. No one is protecting a culture or excluding another.
    Then why do it? If it's not segregated, and it's not either protecting or excluding a culture, what's the sense of it? If I'm not black, and I don't consider myself a "ally" of blacks, are you saying I wouldn't be barred from taking residence in that dorm? How is that NOT segregated?
    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara
    Google African American Living Learning Communities. Learn about LLCs in general. There is nothing unique or unusual about what they are doing.
    Instead, I Googled "white LLC," "Caucasian LLC," and European American LLC." I didn't find any. Because those would be racist, right?


    It's reprehensible for whites to tell blacks that they have to live (or work or dine) in an area of their own. Why is it not equally reprehensible for blacks to say they want a place to live (or work or dine) in an area of their own? Does the inclusion of "allies" make it OK?


    I'm not trying to be disagreeable on all this. I honestly want to understand the mindset that says making distinctions based on a person's race is acceptable, but only in one direction. To me, a community of blacks (and allies) is as reprehensible as a community excluding the same.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  4. #2029
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    As has been well documented, I disagree with many of you about racism. We're in agreement that it's based entirely on ignorance, but we tend to disagree about whether "power" plays a predominant part, or if it's just a matter of making a value judgment on a person based solely on his skin color.


    Colorado University is predominantly white. Only 2% of the student population is African American (compared to 4.5% for the State). The University is in Boulder, which is only about 1% African American (and 90% wealthy). This all makes it extremely difficult to applaud diversity.


    So, the University is taking a residence hall, and segregating it to black students, black-identified students (good grief), and their allies (whatever that means). The purpose is to provide a “supportive, social and communal space for students” who identify with “elements of the African & Black Diaspora.”


    http://dailycaller.com/2017/05/11/ta...-black-people/



    So, what do we think of this? Our "melting pot" has homogenized many unique cultures. This is clearly an effort to protect African and African-American culture from being absorbed by that melting pot. It's also clear that the intent is to provide a place where certain commonalities leave a minority group in a position of influence.


    But, on the other hand, doesn't this fly in the face of Brown vs. Board of Education? Is segregation only bad when it's implemented by the majority? And even in this case, despite the intentions, isn't the segregation being implemented by the white majority? Does it make a difference what the majority's intentions were? Does a segregated dormitory "foster a community of diversity" or does it do just the opposite? Is this "grounded in intercultural dialogue" or is it an impediment to such dialogue?


    Personally, I'd prefer a color-blind society. One where we make value judgments on a person based on their character and interests, rather than by the color of their skin. Dr King said as much. Isn't this dormitory a step in the wrong direction?

    Color-blindness is nonsense, and the quote from King is much abused. It's easy enough for white people to say they're color-blind, because they don't have to notice the fact that they're white. Black people don't have the luxury of simply forgetting that they're black.


    As for the melting pot, African-American culture is every bit as American as "American" culture. "They" have been here every bit as long as "we" have. If the culture has remained distinct, maybe it has something to do with the fact that blacks spent the first 300+ years in America being systematically excluded from "the melting pot." Their own culture developed, sub rosa, alongside but entirely separate from that "melting pot." So now you just want to say, I don't even notice that you're black, just come over here and be one of "us?"
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  5. #2030

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Color-blindness is nonsense, and the quote from King is much abused. It's easy enough for white people to say they're color-blind, because they don't have to notice the fact that they're white. Black people don't have the luxury of simply forgetting that they're black.


    As for the melting pot, African-American culture is every bit as American as "American" culture. "They" have been here every bit as long as "we" have. If the culture has remained distinct, maybe it has something to do with the fact that blacks spent the first 300+ years in America being systematically excluded from "the melting pot." Their own culture developed, sub rosa, alongside but entirely separate from that "melting pot." So now you just want to say, I don't even notice that you're black, just come over here and be one of "us?"
    You think it's better to allow segregation?

    Should every group be entitled to their own residence hall?

  6. #2031
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    So now you just want to say, I don't even notice that you're black, just come over here and be one of "us?"
    Conversely, hasn't the black community cried out for years to be treated equally? And now, they're saying "give us our own place because we don't want to come over there and be one of 'you.' " That's not equal.


    Is it bad for a majority to exclude a minority? Of course it is. Segregation is nothing short of disgusting.


    Is it OK for a minority to exclude the majority? Seems equally disgusting.


    I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.
    How is that quote abused? It's profound. In one sentence, Dr King established a desired future state of being, and observed the absurdity of racism. One sentence. It's brilliant. Racially segregated dorms, regardless of the intent of the segregation, are the antithesis of Dr King's future state.


    Black people don't have to "forget that they're black." White people need to forget that it makes the least bit of difference. But if the Black Community isolates itself from others, that's never going to happen. We have a lot of names for white people who want to keep a neighborhood (or restaurant or dormitory) all white. None of those names are particularly nice. They shouldn't be. So, what do we call people who want to keep a neighborhood (or restaurant or dormitory) all black? Shouldn't they be held to the same standard?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  7. #2032

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Oh good. Another conversation about racism.

    Let's cut to the chase:

    "Blacks do it too."

    "White people voted for Obama."

    There. You're all welcome.

  8. #2033

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    Oh good. Another conversation about racism.

    Let's cut to the chase:

    "Blacks do it too."

    "White people voted for Obama."

    There. You're all welcome.
    Thanks. We'll take it from here.

  9. #2034

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Thanks.
    No problem!

  10. #2035

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Women comprise half of France's new cabinet.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/17/europe...men/index.html

    (CNN) - France's newly inaugurated President Emmanuel Macron unveiled his Cabinet on Wednesday, with women filling half of the 22 positions as promised.

  11. #2036

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Women comprise half of France's new cabinet.

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/17/europe...men/index.html
    I liked this section title in the article:

    Seeking a broader appeal

  12. #2037
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Conversely, hasn't the black community cried out for years to be treated equally? And now, they're saying "give us our own place because we don't want to come over there and be one of 'you.' " That's not equal.


    Is it bad for a majority to exclude a minority? Of course it is. Segregation is nothing short of disgusting.


    Is it OK for a minority to exclude the majority? Seems equally disgusting.


    How is that quote abused? It's profound. In one sentence, Dr King established a desired future state of being, and observed the absurdity of racism. One sentence. It's brilliant. Racially segregated dorms, regardless of the intent of the segregation, are the antithesis of Dr King's future state.


    Black people don't have to "forget that they're black." White people need to forget that it makes the least bit of difference. But if the Black Community isolates itself from others, that's never going to happen. We have a lot of names for white people who want to keep a neighborhood (or restaurant or dormitory) all white. None of those names are particularly nice. They shouldn't be. So, what do we call people who want to keep a neighborhood (or restaurant or dormitory) all black? Shouldn't they be held to the same standard?
    It's abused because King didn't mean that everyone should just stop noticing color today. He meant that society and institutions should change so that maybe that could happen. Read the earlier part about the promissory note, too.

    Black people don't exclude themselves. They just might want a breather.

    And there's still this idea of, "why can't They just be part of Us? Why won't They just merge into Our culture?"

  13. #2038

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I liked this section title in the article:

    Seeking a broader appeal
    I didn't even notice that.

  14. #2039

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Chaffetz will resign June 30. Sorry, Phil.

    http://www.npr.org/2017/05/18/528989...-of-june?sc=tw

  15. #2040

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    It's abused because King didn't mean that everyone should just stop noticing color today. He meant that society and institutions should change so that maybe that could happen. Read the earlier part about the promissory note, too.

    Black people don't exclude themselves. They just might want a breather.

    And there's still this idea of, "why can't They just be part of Us? Why won't They just merge into Our culture?"
    Who's asking anyone to merge into someone else's culture? We're talking about living in a dorm at college. Meeting and living with people of different backgrounds with different opinions and viewpoints is one of the best things about college, IMO.

    Also 'breather'?

  16. #2041
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Who's asking anyone to merge into someone else's culture? We're talking about living in a dorm at college. Meeting and living with people of different backgrounds with different opinions and viewpoints is one of the best things about college, IMO.

    Also 'breather'?
    "Melting pot."

    Mike, do you really think these kids made it to college without being exposed to the ideas of white people? Without succeeding on the terms of white American culture, without having to temper their own opinions to get by? Do you think the experience of being the only black in a dorm full of white people would somehow be a new, mind-expanding thing for them? That they haven't had to deal with, "Why don't you tell us how black people think" on a daily basis?

    I'm not saying I agree with the plan; I don't know enough about it. I'm saying I get that there's a point to it. Again, read Ta-Nehisi Coates on how it felt when he got to Howard.

    Edit: Also maybe this idea didn't suddenly emerge from the desire of blacks not to be with whites, and not to hear other opinions. It's not as if all of the black students just got there, and that they didn't know other students before them. Maybe they realized that the Otherness wasn't going to go away, that their opinions, as the only black in the room, would always be marginalized. Yeah, maybe they wanted a brother from that.

  17. #2042

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    "Melting pot."

    Mike, do you really think these kids made it to college without being exposed to the ideas of white people? Without succeeding on the terms of white American culture, without having to temper their own opinions to get by? Do you think the experience of being the only black in a dorm full of white people would somehow be a new, mind-expanding thing for them? That they haven't had to deal with, "Why don't you tell us how black people think" on a daily basis?

    I'm not saying I agree with the plan; I don't know enough about it. I'm saying I get that there's a point to it. Again, read Ta-Nehisi Coates on how it felt when he got to Howard.
    It's up to the individual to decide whether to give up certain aspects of their culture. Being exposed to people with different backgrounds is pretty widely accepted as a good thing. Isolating someone from other cultures in an attempt to have them maintain theirs is not a concept I agree with. It sounds kind of oppressive, honestly.

    Should people really be split by culture? Like an Irish dorm and an Italian one?

    I don't think so.

    I'm not saying you advocate these things-- we're just talking about them.

  18. #2043

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    It's up to the individual to decide whether to give up certain aspects of their culture. Being exposed to people with different backgrounds is pretty widely accepted as a good thing. Isolating someone from other cultures in an attempt to have them maintain theirs is not a concept I agree with. It sounds kind of oppressive, honestly.

    Should people really be split by culture? Like an Irish dorm and an Italian one?

    I don't think so.

    I'm not saying you advocate these things-- we're just talking about them.
    No one is isolated from other cultures by living in an LLC. It's not like that. They still have plenty of exposure to other people, cultures and ideas. Research shows that students who participate in them have higher academic success rates, college graduation rates, levels of satisfaction in the "college experience", and an easier time forging relationships and connecting with their peers.

    https://www.aacu.org/publications-re...al-practice-we

  19. #2044
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    It's up to the individual to decide whether to give up certain aspects of their culture. Being exposed to people with different backgrounds is pretty widely accepted as a good thing. Isolating someone from other cultures in an attempt to have them maintain theirs is not a concept I agree with. It sounds kind of oppressive, honestly.

    Should people really be split by culture? Like an Irish dorm and an Italian one?

    I don't think so.

    I'm not saying you advocate these things-- we're just talking about them.
    "The melting pot" is entirely about various ethnic groups becoming White. The Irish and Italians and Jews weren't White before they got here. In fact, no one was White before they came to a place where it was important to have White people earning wealth through the labor of Black people.

    Previous situation at the college: all dorms were white dorms, with a couple of black students sprinkled in. They weren't called white dorms - because nothing is called white, it's just called normal - but that's what they were.

  20. #2045

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    "The melting pot" is entirely about various ethnic groups becoming White. The Irish and Italians and Jews weren't White before they got here. In fact, no one was White before they came to a place where it was important to have White people earning wealth through the labor of Black people.

    Previous situation at the college: all dorms are white dorms, with a couple of blacks sprinkled in. They weren't called white dorms - because nothing is called white, it's just called normal - but that's what they were.
    What if the school was 50/50 white and POC? Would there be a reason for this type of arrangement?

    What would you think about having a white dorm at a predominantly black college?

  21. #2046
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    What if the school was 50/50 white and POC? Would there be a reason for this type of arrangement?

    What would you think about having a white dorm at a predominantly black college?
    I think if it were 50/50 this would probably not have happened.

    I'd have to hear the rationale for the latter, but it would be more of an uphill climb because of the different experiences of being white and being black in the US. A white student going to a historically black college usually makes that choice. And for that student, living among black students would indeed be a new, mind-opening sort of experience. For a black student living in a white culture, not so much.

  22. #2047

    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I think if it were 50/50 this would probably not have happened.

    I'd have to hear the rationale for the latter, but it would be more of an uphill climb because of the different experiences of being white and being black in the US. A white student going to a historically black college usually makes that choice. And for that student, living among black students would indeed be a new, mind-opening sort of experience. For a black student living in a white culture, not so much.
    Is there nothing to be gained for a black person who lives among other ethnicities?

    What about the black student who comes from a predominantly black area, who has had little contact with white people? Interacting with white people superficially or knowing about white culture through TV or movies isn't the same as personal one on one interactions.

    I'm enjoying this conversation, BTW.

  23. #2048
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Is there nothing to be gained for a black person who lives among other ethnicities?

    What about the black student who comes from a predominantly black area, who has had little contact with white people? Interacting with white people superficially or knowing about white culture through TV or movies isn't the same as personal one on one interactions.

    I'm enjoying this conversation, BTW.
    There's a benefit, but it would have to be weighed against the downside of being The Black Guy in a white dorm.

    We're talking about Colorado. I don't think there are many blacks who make it to college there without considerable exposure to white people.

  24. #2049
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: Non-Presidential News Stories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Chaffetz will resign June 30. Sorry, Phil.

    http://www.npr.org/2017/05/18/528989...-of-june?sc=tw
    Coward. After talking for months about how excited he was for 4 years of investigating Hillary, now he runs away instead of doing his job to investigate a truly dirty POTUS just because there's an R after his name.

  25. #2050
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    Coward. After talking for months about how excited he was for 4 years of investigating Hillary, now he runs away instead of doing his job to investigate a truly dirty POTUS just because there's an R after his name.
    He's not running away, not after that foot surgery. Hobbling away.

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