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  1. #35101
    Clap clap, clap-clap-clap ArodEra's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    I repeat. The name calling was started by Trump. You canít deal with this issue and ignore the climate in which it goes on. This presidency is unprecedented. This is what it has bred. He shows complete disrespect for everyone he can. People respond to that.
    Seriously have to run but how does this make it okay to disparage all Trump supporters and call them names? I addressed this in one of my posts.

    Like most here, Iím not a Trump supporter, but some of the vitriol and ďoutrageĒ (including the manufactured variety) is disconcerting and often comes across as forced and disingenuous. Not by all, but most.

  2. #35102
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bernard View Post
    Apologies Bill you totally lost me. Iím not sure what youíre referring to in regards to something Iíve said? I think itís depressing that Trump continues to salute the white pride flag by endorsing people like Stewart. And this actually ties into Arodera and Yankeepideís argument about Trump supporters. Iím willing to accept within reason that there were people supporting Trump in good faith prior to the election. At this point though I canít imagine supporting him unless youíre all in on people like Corey Stewart. Itís getting impossible to insist you can separate the bad stuff from the potus. The bad stuff is the potus.
    The Germans have a saying that loosely translates "one nazi at the table talking with 10 other people equals 11 nazis at the table". At this point, anyone sitting at the table with Trump is equal to Trump.

  3. #35103
    Clap clap, clap-clap-clap ArodEra's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    I wonder if that metaphor applies to Reverend Wright’s entire congregation, past and present, and those in voluntary, smile-filled photo ops with Louie Farrakhan, even being in the presence of the dirtbag.

  4. #35104

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Of course. Hannity is an entertainer, and not a journalist. He's got to play to his audience's expectations.

    The comparison between Obama/Castro and Trump/Kim is reasonable. Not identical, but a reasonable comp. One's attitude ought to be pretty similar when comparing the two events.

    If, like Hannity, you hated the first meeting because...Obama, and are thrilled with the most recent because...Trump, well, you're a partisan hack, and you need to learn to look at the situation on its merits, not based on who was driving the bus.

    Of course, if you loved the first meeting because...Obama, and are kvetching about this one because...Trump, you're just as bad.

    Did this most recent meeting accomplish anything concrete? Of course not. Did we give anything away? Not really. People are railing about changes to joint US-South Korea exercises without an absolute guarantee NK will comply with their agreements. Guess what? NK doesn't have an absolute guarantee that we'll comply, either. That's a draw.

    The POTUS can't unilaterally create a treaty. That's why Trump could undo the Iranian Nuclear Deal, because Obama executed it as an executive agreement, and not a treaty. Ratifying a treaty is hard. You need the Senate to weigh in. That wasn't an expectation in Singapore.

    Does this meeting take us closer to, or further away from a treaty with North Korea? I have to believe it takes us closer, although only marginally so. Regardless, for a one-day sit-down, that's a success. Does this meeting take us closer to, or further away from a war with North Korea? I have to believe it takes us further away from open warfare. That is a very big success.

    Like a baseball trade, it's really impossible to assess who came out ahead. It'll take a few years before we can know for sure. But, a dialog between the respective leaders can't be a bad thing, can it?

    But we all need to assess our immediate reaction based on the nature of the relationship between the two countries, and not who is sitting behind the leader's desk. No, Trump didn't "legitimize" KJU. You legitimize a leader when there's some question who's actually in charge. Was there any doubt Kim was in charge? Do we avoid talking to him because of human rights issues in NK? No. Refusing to even talk isn't going to drive any improvements.

    What are your criteria (not you, Rhody, I mean in general) for a successful meeting?
    - A treaty of some sort? Unreasonable expectation.
    - Verifiable denuclearization? Unreasonable expectation.
    - Elimination of human rights violations in North Korea? Unreasonable expectation.
    - Framework for future work? I think so. Probably.
    - Lowering the likelihood of hostilities? I think so.

    I'm not a Trump apologist. I'm not a Trump fan. I don't like the man, and didn't vote for him. However, I can't automatically default to something is bad just because Trump touched it. In this specific case, I think he did something good. Not Nobel Prize good, because the end result is very much incomplete. But it was a step in the right direction with a rogue nation that has a burgeoning nuclear capability. And even one step in the right direction, under those conditions, is something to be desired.
    I'm quite sure you would have a better perspective than I on this, so I ask...

    Do you think agreeing to give up the drills in the region (war games) with nothing in return is a draw or a win for NK?

  5. #35105
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    The FBI watchdogs that Investigated the FBI handling of the Clinton email investigation (as ordered by Trump) found that Comey did deviate from department norms but DID NOT snow any bias in his handling of the case. From which Trump will take news, witch hunt

  6. #35106

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bernard View Post
    Apologies Bill you totally lost me. Iím not sure what youíre referring to in regards to something Iíve said? I think itís depressing that Trump continues to salute the white pride flag by endorsing people like Stewart. And this actually ties into Arodera and Yankeepideís argument about Trump supporters. Iím willing to accept within reason that there were people supporting Trump in good faith prior to the election. At this point though I canít imagine supporting him unless youíre all in on people like Corey Stewart. Itís getting impossible to insist you can separate the bad stuff from the potus. The bad stuff is the potus.
    My apologies. I misread your post.

  7. #35107
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    I'm quite sure you would have a better perspective than I on this, so I ask...

    Do you think agreeing to give up the drills in the region (war games) with nothing in return is a draw or a win for NK?
    I can't answer, in that I disagree with your premise.

    The joint declaration sates:

    President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un state the following:

    1. The United States and the DPRK commit to establish new U.S.–DPRK relations in accordance with the desire of the peoples of the two countries for peace and prosperity.
    2. The United States and the DPRK will join their efforts to build a lasting and stable peace regime on the Korean Peninsula.
    3. Reaffirming the April 27, 2018 Panmunjom Declaration, the DPRK commits to work toward complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.
    4. The United States and the DPRK commit to recovering POW/MIA remains, including the immediate repatriation of those already identified.
    So, reduction/elimination of joint military exercises isn't a part of the formal agreement, except as it supports item #2. As for "nothing in return," I don't know how to process that assumption, when I look at item #3. From my viewpoint, that's not "nothing in return." In fact, it's the greatest possible return on any concessions made by the US. It's only my opinion, but the greatest desire in our dealings with North Korea ought to be the cessation of their nuclear weapon development program (and corresponding delivery systems). If we get that result in exchange for ceasing joint exercises with South Korea, WE WIN, South Korea wins, North Korea wins. Isn't that what diplomacy is supposed to achieve?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  8. #35108

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I can't answer, in that I disagree with your premise.

    The joint declaration sates:

    So, reduction/elimination of joint military exercises isn't a part of the formal agreement, except as it supports item #2. As for "nothing in return," I don't know how to process that assumption, when I look at item #3. From my viewpoint, that's not "nothing in return." In fact, it's the greatest possible return on any concessions made by the US. It's only my opinion, but the greatest desire in our dealings with North Korea ought to be the cessation of their nuclear weapon development program (and corresponding delivery systems). If we get that result in exchange for ceasing joint exercises with South Korea, WE WIN, South Korea wins, North Korea wins. Isn't that what diplomacy is supposed to achieve?
    But today Trump is expected to formally stop preparations for joint exercises that were to occur in August, calling them 'provocative' and 'expensive'. To me that's a pretty concrete step. Whereas I don't see what North Korea has given in return besides repeating the same promises it has made many times over the years; promises it never lives up to.

    Maybe these joint exercises are simply symbolic and meaningless at best, or as Trump said, provocative and too expensive at worst and do nothing to help keep the peace. If that's the case, then I'm glad he is giving them up.

  9. #35109

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I see Trump as a total moron with a better cabinet than his predecessor, particularly on the foreign policy front.
    This raises an interesting point. Trump has been in office for less than 17 months. On the foreign policy front, he’s now working on his 3rd National Security Advisor, his 3rd Secretary of Homeland Security, his 2nd Secretary of State, and his 2nd CIA Director. And he still has no Ambassador to South Korea among his many vacant foreign postings. Exactly which members of the foreign policy team are we to evaluate in assessing its effectiveness? And can we even talk about a “team” when the revolving door doesn’t have people their long enough to develop working relationships with each other or to be on the same page with him.

    Obama’s foreign policy team negotiated TPP. Trump would be in a stronger position today if he had stuck with TPP.

    Obama’s foreign policy team negotiated the Iran deal. It serves as a model for what Trump should have in any agreement with North Korea.

    Obama’s foreign policy team along with others negotiated the Paris Climate Accords. Trump remains a climate change denier. Enough said.

    Obama’s foreign policy team managed the reestablishment of relations with Cuba. Trump mocks Obama’s accomplishment but wants to build closer ties with Russia. Enough said.

  10. #35110

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I can't answer, in that I disagree with your premise.

    The joint declaration sates:

    So, reduction/elimination of joint military exercises isn't a part of the formal agreement, except as it supports item #2. As for "nothing in return," I don't know how to process that assumption, when I look at item #3. From my viewpoint, that's not "nothing in return." In fact, it's the greatest possible return on any concessions made by the US. It's only my opinion, but the greatest desire in our dealings with North Korea ought to be the cessation of their nuclear weapon development program (and corresponding delivery systems). If we get that result in exchange for ceasing joint exercises with South Korea, WE WIN, South Korea wins, North Korea wins. Isn't that what diplomacy is supposed to achieve?
    Fool’s gold. North Korea will never give up their nuclear weapons. Would you if you were them? Gadaffi gave them up in Libya. How did that work out for him? If Kim doesn’t know, John Bolton keeps reminding him. Ukraine gave them up. That didn’t end well. There’s a longer list of countries that gave them up to check out.

  11. #35111

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Lol. Have to love the trumpites. Sorry I lost positivity when we elected a demagogue who has assaulted the free press, who has treated our closest allies as enemies, has treated a psychopath who murders his own citizens as honorable and trustworthy. When without provocation calls for Russia (Putinís orders I am sure) to reinstate Russia to the G7 (even though they are not an economic superpower) when we have these camps at the border. When facts are ignored and lies are now ďtruthĒ. When non whites and women are treated like second class citizens. No I will continue to refuse to drink the Trump kool aid. I will continue as I have and resist this evil man.
    Right on.

    So today NK released a photo of Herr Drumpf saluting an NK general. Nothing like POTUS saluting one of the leaders of a murderous, dictatorial regime whilst starting a feud with ................ing Canada. Unreal.
    "A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."
    -- Declaration of Independence

  12. #35112
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Right on.

    So today NK released a photo of Herr Drumpf saluting an NK general. Nothing like POTUS saluting one of the leaders of a murderous, dictatorial regime whilst starting a feud with ................ing Canada. Unreal.
    I will never consider this normal or acceptable

  13. #35113
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I can't answer, in that I disagree with your premise.

    The joint declaration sates:

    So, reduction/elimination of joint military exercises isn't a part of the formal agreement, except as it supports item #2. As for "nothing in return," I don't know how to process that assumption, when I look at item #3. From my viewpoint, that's not "nothing in return." In fact, it's the greatest possible return on any concessions made by the US. It's only my opinion, but the greatest desire in our dealings with North Korea ought to be the cessation of their nuclear weapon development program (and corresponding delivery systems). If we get that result in exchange for ceasing joint exercises with South Korea, WE WIN, South Korea wins, North Korea wins. Isn't that what diplomacy is supposed to achieve?
    Item #3 just repeats what they agreed to two months ago.

  14. #35114
    NYYF Legend

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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Right on.

    So today NK released a photo of Herr Drumpf saluting an NK general. Nothing like POTUS saluting one of the leaders of a murderous, dictatorial regime whilst starting a feud with ................ing Canada. Unreal.
    The outrage is hilarious. Did you see the video? It's so harmless, awkward, and cute.

    http://thehill.com/policy/internatio...g-north-korean
    Calmer than you are

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  15. #35115
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    The outrage is hilarious. Did you see the video? It's so harmless, awkward, and cute.

    http://thehill.com/policy/internatio...g-north-korean
    Have a drink...I hate Trump, but....

    ...I have to agree with CP on this one. He didn't salute the NK general; he returned, in the most abbreviated manner possible, that general's salute. Big difference. The subordinate salutes; the superior returns it. What would you have him do? Stand there with his hand out in some kind of gesture war, waiting to see if the NK general would break his salute before the end of time, and certainly embarrassing both of them, or just get on with things, the way he did?

    Well, I don't know about 'cute'...
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  16. #35116
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    So today NK released a photo of Herr Drumpf saluting an NK general.
    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967
    I will never consider this normal or acceptable
    Seriously?

    First, the very concept of a salute stems from Medieval times, when a knight would raise his visor, to show there were no intentions to bring harm to someone. It's not a sign of subservience.

    Second, by military tradition, the salute is initiated by the lower ranking person, and returned by the higher ranking officer. In this case, the salute was originated by the North Korean General. It would have been rude for the President to ignore it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle
    The outrage is hilarious.
    I don't find anything funny about the outrage. I'm frustrated by it. Trump could say "the sun rises in the East," and his detractors would quibble about it, determine that it's technically not exactly 090 degrees, and scream that he was lying.

    The man makes enough absurd comments and ridiculous tweets. To rail about extending a military courtesy to a foreign general is ludicrous. Save the outrage for things that are deserving of the outrage.

    If you hated the GOP's NotObama positions, how on Earth can you justify a NotTrump philosophy? Want to complain about the tax cut? Go for it. Want to complain about immigration policy? Be my guest. But to complain about even meeting with Kim (particularly if you applauded Obama's meeting with Castro), or to complain about returning an officer's salute is close-minded and (strictly in my opinion) childish.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  17. #35117
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Seriously?

    First, the very concept of a salute stems from Medieval times, when a knight would raise his visor, to show there were no intentions to bring harm to someone. It's not a sign of subservience.

    Second, by military tradition, the salute is initiated by the lower ranking person, and returned by the higher ranking officer. In this case, the salute was originated by the North Korean General. It would have been rude for the President to ignore it.

    I don't find anything funny about the outrage. I'm frustrated by it. Trump could say "the sun rises in the East," and his detractors would quibble about it, determine that it's technically not exactly 090 degrees, and scream that he was lying.

    The man makes enough absurd comments and ridiculous tweets. To rail about extending a military courtesy to a foreign general is ludicrous. Save the outrage for things that are deserving of the outrage.

    If you hated the GOP's NotObama positions, how on Earth can you justify a NotTrump philosophy? Want to complain about the tax cut? Go for it. Want to complain about immigration policy? Be my guest. But to complain about even meeting with Kim (particularly if you applauded Obama's meeting with Castro), or to complain about returning an officer's salute is close-minded and (strictly in my opinion) childish.
    Maynerd I was talking about accepting Trump as norm. I have no idea what this salute is. I did not see it so this has nothing to do with me. Not sure why you removed the right on, if you see the post that came from you would have seen what I was saying. Don’t care about any salute.!I am replying to you as you are the only one that replied whose opinion I care about in this exchange other than Jenn.

  18. #35118
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Maynerd I was talking about accepting Trump as norm. I have no idea what this salute is. I did not see it so this has nothing to do with me.
    Oooooohkay.

    jlw posted a comment about Trump saluting a NK general. You quoted that very post, and said "I will never consider this normal or acceptable."

    You'll have to forgive me for interpreting your comment as being related to the post you were quoting. Generally, if I quote a post, I'm indicating that my subsequent comments have something to do with the same topic. YMMV.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  19. #35119

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Maynerd I was talking about accepting Trump as norm. I have no idea what this salute is. I did not see it so this has nothing to do with me.
    Donít get in the way of the conservative guys expressing their outrage at other peopleís outrage.

    @Maynerd you stated that people complained about Trump meeting with Kim. That isnít my read on any of the criticism. Most of the complaints are the content of that meeting, and Trumpís behavior after it. I think most are happy Trump went from threatening nuclear war to diplomacy. As usual with him itís the execution thatís problematic.

  20. #35120
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Oooooohkay.

    jlw posted a comment about Trump saluting a NK general. You quoted that very post, and said "I will never consider this normal or acceptable."

    You'll have to forgive me for interpreting your comment as being related to the post you were quoting. Generally, if I quote a post, I'm indicating that my subsequent comments have something to do with the same topic. YMMV.
    Sorry I edited my response. I just wondered why the right on was deleted. I see that it is how you had interpreted my response. My apologies for thinking it was intentional

  21. #35121
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Item #3 just repeats what they agreed to two months ago.
    Indeed it does. So? Getting the Supreme Leader to double down on that promise doesn't carry any international weight? The fact that it's a two-month old concession indicates that North Korea has given up nothing?

    Repeating a two-month old promise to terminate their nuclear program still indicates a concession more significant by far than the US backing away from joint exercises. And, the joint exercise termination isn't even a part of the agreement.

    Am I missing something?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  22. #35122
    Clap clap, clap-clap-clap ArodEra's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    The outrage is hilarious. Did you see the video? It's so harmless, awkward, and cute.

    http://thehill.com/policy/internatio...g-north-korean
    All of the above and he was returning a salute to boot.

    I’m guessing that a constant state of outrage isn’t healthy for anyone (no one in particular) whether real or fake.

  23. #35123
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Second, by military tradition, the salute is initiated by the lower ranking person, and returned by the higher ranking officer. In this case, the salute was originated by the North Korean General. It would have been rude for the President to ignore it.
    I don't think it would be rude at all to have waited for him to finish the salute then shake his hand. And I don't believe the military tradition includes saluting our adversaries especially not a hostile one. The Army Regulations Manual states itís customary to ďsalute officers of friendly foreign nations when recognized as suchĒ. I don't think NK qualifies.

    That said, there was the same kerfuffle over Obama, Bush and Clinton bowing to the Japanese emperor and Obama bowing to the Saudi king, something Trump did as well. It's dumb. I think Trump looked genuinely confused about how to respond and acted reflexively. (Of course his confusion could just as easily have been related to his dementia. No way to know!)

  24. #35124

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Indeed it does. So? Getting the Supreme Leader to double down on that promise doesn't carry any international weight? The fact that it's a two-month old concession indicates that North Korea has given up nothing?

    Repeating a two-month old promise to terminate their nuclear program still indicates a concession more significant by far than the US backing away from joint exercises. And, the joint exercise termination isn't even a part of the agreement.

    Am I missing something?
    This doesnít make any sense. NK not keeping previous commitments and agreeing once again to the same commitment they havenít kept is ďdoubling downĒ on said commitment?

  25. #35125
    Clap clap, clap-clap-clap ArodEra's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    This raises an interesting point. Trump has been in office for less than 17 months. On the foreign policy front, he’s now working on his 3rd National Security Advisor, his 3rd Secretary of Homeland Security, his 2nd Secretary of State, and his 2nd CIA Director. And he still has no Ambassador to South Korea among his many vacant foreign postings. Exactly which members of the foreign policy team are we to evaluate in assessing its effectiveness? And can we even talk about a “team” when the revolving door doesn’t have people their long enough to develop working relationships with each other or to be on the same page with him.

    Obama’s foreign policy team negotiated TPP. Trump would be in a stronger position today if he had stuck with TPP.

    Obama’s foreign policy team negotiated the Iran deal. It serves as a model for what Trump should have in any agreement with North Korea.

    Obama’s foreign policy team along with others negotiated the Paris Climate Accords. Trump remains a climate change denier. Enough said.

    Obama’s foreign policy team managed the reestablishment of relations with Cuba. Trump mocks Obama’s accomplishment but wants to build closer ties with Russia. Enough said.
    Can’t agree on 1, 2 or 4, *especially* 2 and 4 (and the associated hypocrisy).

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