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  1. #20776
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Trump is a clown but I wouldn't hold his speech at the Jamboree against the Boy Scouts. It's kind of a tradition to invite the sitting president, you just don't have much control over what he says.

    Now if you are against the boy scouts for other reasons fine, I'm not, but I know some object to them on some grounds.

    Overall I think they are a good organization they provides a nice framework for learning life lessons with a lot of mostly good volunteers.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  2. #20777

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Trump is a clown but I wouldn't hold his speech at the Jamboree against the Boy Scouts. It's kind of a tradition to invite the sitting president, you just don't have much control over what he says.

    Now if you are against the boy scouts for other reasons fine, I'm not, but I know some object to them on some grounds.

    Overall I think they are a good organization they provides a nice framework for learning life lessons with a lot of mostly good volunteers.
    While I agree that the BSA does provide an excellent framework for life's lessons, the fact that the BSA buried over 1200 cases of sexual abuse from 1960-1985 is exactly what the Catholic Church did with the pedophile priests.
    BSA was on the road for regaining public trust again. 45*'s tirade set them back again.
    Loving some nothing burgers!!!

  3. #20778
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Trump is a clown but I wouldn't hold his speech at the Jamboree against the Boy Scouts. It's kind of a tradition to invite the sitting president, you just don't have much control over what he says.

    Now if you are against the boy scouts for other reasons fine, I'm not, but I know some object to them on some grounds.

    Overall I think they are a good organization they provides a nice framework for learning life lessons with a lot of mostly good volunteers.
    Ah...Plausible deniability. You know, where yet another Christian organization looks the other way when a prominent public speaker says decidedly un-Christlike things, on their behalf or otherwise.
    If money is a science, then it is a dark science...it has gone on developing...by its own rules. Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  4. #20779
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by BRenninger View Post
    While I agree that the BSA does provide an excellent framework for life's lessons, the fact that the BSA buried over 1200 cases of sexual abuse from 1960-1985 is exactly what the Catholic Church did with the pedophile priests.
    BSA was on the road for regaining public trust again. 45*'s tirade set them back again.
    Yes there are bad apples in the BSA and if t hat is why you are against them I have no problem with that stance.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  5. #20780

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by BRenninger View Post
    While I agree that the BSA does provide an excellent framework for life's lessons, the fact that the BSA buried over 1200 cases of sexual abuse from 1960-1985 is exactly what the Catholic Church did with the pedophile priests.
    BSA was on the road for regaining public trust again. 45*'s tirade set them back again.
    I think you're mixing and matching gripes, bud. They're not responsible for Trump being Trump. I can't hold it against them for extending an invitation to the POTUS to speak. As I said previously, the problem is organizations are stuck in this awful position where they want to respect the office but it just so happens the office holder is a loser.

    So what do you do?

  6. #20781
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Now if you are against the boy scouts for other reasons fine, I'm not, but I know some object to them on some grounds.
    Generally political grounds for an apolitical organization.


    For many years "morally straight" was interpreted as excluding gay Scouts or leaders. And, because gay Scouts were being asked to leave, many people withheld their contributions. But then, BSA opened its doors, first to gay Scouts, and then to gay leaders. Predictably enough, many people are now withholding their contributions, because a subset is being included.


    So, if you exclude this community, you're in the stone age, and it will cost you money. But if you include them, you're immoral, and it will cost you money. If you invite the President of the United States to speak to tens of thousands of Scouts, you'll be held responsible for his unscripted remarks, and it will cost you money. I'm sure that if they didn't invite the POTUS, people would have said it was disrespectful, and it would have cost them money.


    Is there a scenario out there where the Boy Scouts can do ANYTHING and come out ahead?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  7. #20782
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Ah...Plausible deniability. You know, where yet another Christian organization looks the other way when a prominent public speaker says decidedly un-Christlike things, on their behalf or otherwise.
    The Boy Scouts are not a Christian organization. They believe reverence toward a higher power is required. but they don't care if that higher power is the Christian God, Buddha, Mother Nature, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  8. #20783

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    The Boy Scouts are not a Christian organization. They believe reverence toward a higher power is required. but they don't care if that higher power is the Christian God, Buddha, Mother Nature, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster.
    But no atheists allowed? or agnostics, iirc?

  9. #20784
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Generally political grounds for an apolitical organization.


    For many years "morally straight" was interpreted as excluding gay Scouts or leaders. And, because gay Scouts were being asked to leave, many people withheld their contributions. But then, BSA opened its doors, first to gay Scouts, and then to gay leaders. Predictably enough, many people are now withholding their contributions, because a subset is being included.


    So, if you exclude this community, you're in the stone age, and it will cost you money. But if you include them, you're immoral, and it will cost you money. If you invite the President of the United States to speak to tens of thousands of Scouts, you'll be held responsible for his unscripted remarks, and it will cost you money. I'm sure that if they didn't invite the POTUS, people would have said it was disrespectful, and it would have cost them money.


    Is there a scenario out there where the Boy Scouts can do ANYTHING and come out ahead?
    Setting aside the self-imposed gunshot wounds the BSA inflicted upon itself re: homosexuality (spare me, I don't care), it seems to me the Boy Scouts of America could've simply had a contractual agreement (is there one?, dunno) where if the POTUS sharts himself and starts blathering nonsense, that they reserve the right to pull the plug.

    Their goal after all is to teach children to be prepared. Not act like a deer in headlights. You'd think they'd have paid attention to their own creed? :shrug:
    If money is a science, then it is a dark science...it has gone on developing...by its own rules. Neal Stephenson, Quicksilver

  10. #20785

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    I think you're mixing and matching gripes, bud. They're not responsible for Trump being Trump. I can't hold it against them for extending an invitation to the POTUS to speak. As I said previously, the problem is organizations are stuck in this awful position where they want to respect the office but it just so happens the office holder is a loser.

    So what do you do?
    I was referencing the BSA rebuttal. Or non-rebuttal is more like it.
    Loving some nothing burgers!!!

  11. #20786
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Generally political grounds for an apolitical organization.


    For many years "morally straight" was interpreted as excluding gay Scouts or leaders. And, because gay Scouts were being asked to leave, many people withheld their contributions. But then, BSA opened its doors, first to gay Scouts, and then to gay leaders. Predictably enough, many people are now withholding their contributions, because a subset is being included.


    So, if you exclude this community, you're in the stone age, and it will cost you money. But if you include them, you're immoral, and it will cost you money. If you invite the President of the United States to speak to tens of thousands of Scouts, you'll be held responsible for his unscripted remarks, and it will cost you money. I'm sure that if they didn't invite the POTUS, people would have said it was disrespectful, and it would have cost them money.


    Is there a scenario out there where the Boy Scouts can do ANYTHING and come out ahead?
    Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

    Yes their stance on gays is one of the reasons some were against them and their reversal of that caused them to lose some support they had. But in this case I'll go with inclusion over exclusion.

    Their handling of sex abuse cases as B brings up is also a black mark against them.

    I'm sure there are other issues over the years, I'm just not really familiar with them never having been in the Boy Scouts or been involved as a volunteer.

    I'm sure the vast majority of those volunteering in scouts are good upstanding people giving their time and talents for a great cause. But like any large organization where adults are put in an athority over children some will abuse that trust.

    But getting back to the POTUS I don't think anything he said or did should be held against the BSA.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  12. #20787
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    But no atheists allowed? or agnostics, iirc?
    A Scout is Reverent. The interpretation of that rule excludes atheists. Agnosticism is a gray area. Many agnostics take the position that man is incapable of understanding what a supreme being might actually be. But, if they don't dismiss the possibility that there is some sort of higher power, they fit inside the rule.


    Again, reverence toward Mother Nature is acceptable. There's really plenty of room for someone who questions what they might (or might not) believe. They just can't be completely dismissive of ANY higher power.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  13. #20788

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    A Scout is Reverent. The interpretation of that rule excludes atheists.
    It's possible to be reverent to something that isn't a higher power, no? Chocolate, for example.

  14. #20789
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    It's possible to be reverent to something that isn't a higher power, no? Chocolate, for example.
    That's not a higher power?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  15. #20790

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    The next National Jamboree is in 2021. I have a very tough time visualizing Mr. Trump being relevant by then.
    Ah, got it. Would make sense that they dont have a 40,000 person jamboree every year...

    I hope you're right about Trump's standing in 2021. I've predicted his impending irrelevance at something like 5 or 6 points in time over the past couple of years and have been dead wrong. It really does seem as if he has some deep seated need to drive himself out of office, though.

  16. #20791

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Damned if you do, damned if you don't?

    Yes their stance on gays is one of the reasons some were against them and their reversal of that caused them to lose some support they had. But in this case I'll go with inclusion over exclusion.

    Their handling of sex abuse cases as B brings up is also a black mark against them.

    I'm sure there are other issues over the years, I'm just not really familiar with them never having been in the Boy Scouts or been involved as a volunteer.

    I'm sure the vast majority of those volunteering in scouts are good upstanding people giving their time and talents for a great cause. But like any large organization where adults are put in an athority over children some will abuse that trust.

    But getting back to the POTUS I don't think anything he said or did should be held against the BSA.
    What I have never understood about rules/laws/regs against openly gay people in scouts or religion or wherever else has been that if somebody is OPENLY gay, then right away I know they probably are pretty honest about themselves and have likely displayed some degree of courage in describing themselves to others. I worry far less about them than I do about somebody who bottles up his gay feelings, doesn't tell anybody and fights himself and his their whole lives. Take the problem of predatory priests, for example. Seems as if when you give somebody either the motivation or place (or both) to hide their sexuality, really warped and potentially criminal activity is fostered.

    If an openly gay man says he'd like to be a Scout leader...hey, I trust him with my kid as much as I do as an openly straight guy. The guy I'm far more worried about is the guy who is actually gay but doesn't tell anybody and pretends to be something he's not. THAT guy I wouldn't feel good about as I don't know what the heck is going on inside them. But the openly gay guy is probably the least likely guy to be joining scouts to harm children...both because there is no correlation between gayness and pedophilia (anymore than there is in the general population), AND the gay guy has already chosen, at least to some degree, a path of full disclosure.

  17. #20792

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    That's not a higher power?
    I can't even argue this.

  18. #20793

    Re: President Donald Trump

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us..._medium=Social
    The Trump administration on Tuesday pushed forward with its bid to undo an Obama administration rule to extend mandatory overtime pay to 4.2 million workers and said it was considering treating workers differently based on location and industry.

  19. #20794
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Populist President right there.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  20. #20795
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    If an openly gay man says he'd like to be a Scout leader...hey, I trust him with my kid as much as I do as an openly straight guy. The guy I'm far more worried about is the guy who is actually gay but doesn't tell anybody and pretends to be something he's not. THAT guy I wouldn't feel good about as I don't know what the heck is going on inside them. But the openly gay guy is probably the least likely guy to be joining scouts to harm children...both because there is no correlation between gayness and pedophilia (anymore than there is in the general population), AND the gay guy has already chosen, at least to some degree, a path of full disclosure.
    Fully agree.


    As a Scout Leader, I'm restricted to what they call "two-deep leadership." I don't ever meet one-on-one with a Scout. There's always another adult present. If that's absolutely infeasible, I'll make sure there are other Scouts present. This protects not only the kid, but me as well. For any Troop that adheres to this (non-optional) policy, there's no risk of a rogue adult leader taking advantage of the youth or causing them harm. Unfortunately, too many Troops are thin of adult leaders, and don't comply with this universal policy. And, it only takes one or two failures to cast the entire organization in a terrible light.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  21. #20796

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Fully agree.


    As a Scout Leader, I'm restricted to what they call "two-deep leadership." I don't ever meet one-on-one with a Scout. There's always another adult present. If that's absolutely infeasible, I'll make sure there are other Scouts present. This protects not only the kid, but me as well. For any Troop that adheres to this (non-optional) policy, there's no risk of a rogue adult leader taking advantage of the youth or causing them harm. Unfortunately, too many Troops are thin of adult leaders, and don't comply with this universal policy. And, it only takes one or two failures to cast the entire organization in a terrible light.
    That's absolutely the right thing to do.

    Good friend of mine is a high school girls basketball and soccer coach. Early in his career, he was on track to coach the boys and the head girls coach was sick or something and he filled in and found out he liked coaching the girls at least as much as he did the boys and ended up doing that now for 20 something years.

    But he had the good sense early on to demand that he have a woman assistant coach at practice at all times, no exceptions. In addition to the fact that he believed having a woman on staff was a healthy thing for the girls anyway he did it in order to protect himself, essentially, against a confused kid...perhaps with a crush or whatever...imagining something that wasn't there or confusing word of encouragement or pat on the shoulder as something...

    Every organization should do that and it has nothing to do with sexual preferences of the leaders, imho.

  22. #20797

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Despicable.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...ource=facebook

    Republicans block Democrats' bid to see Treasury files on Trump

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. House Republicans on Tuesday shot down a legislative effort by Democrats to obtain Treasury Department documents that could show any ties between the finances of President Donald Trump, his inner circle and the Russian government.

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