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  1. #51901
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    ojo's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    If ethics can be viewed as the moral reflection of experience(s), where do we get our morals from? Or, rather, where did we get them? Evolution? Culture? Religion? Religion can be a tool to teach morality, but it’s not the harbinger or its origins. Are we not born with an innate sense of morality? If not, then how is it the sociopath is born without them?

    ETA: no, I’m not high.
    “Nobody teaches life anything.” - Gabriel García Márquez

  2. #51902
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Yeah people change. My BIL was a hard core conservative in his younger days and is quite liberal now. My dad was a Union organizer democrat in his youth but was pretty staunch conservative by the time he retired.
    Used to listen to Hannity every day post 9/11.

  3. #51903

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I was coming here to make the same point.

    Jenn, you’ve told us that, over the course of your adult life, you’ve moved about 180 degrees in your political and social positions. By your standards, this should make you an irredeemable human being.

    As it happens, you are an irredeemable human being, but not for that reason. Like some others here, I find the ideological purity can tend to be difficult. But for you to insist that others not only meet those standards now, but have always met them without faltering, is hypocrisy.
    Fair enough. As much as I hate to admit it, you're right.
    "Our work continues, the fight goes on, and the big dreams never die." -- Elizabeth Warren

  4. #51904
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Fair enough. As much as I hate to admit it, you're right.
    People change!
    NYYFANS: Cashman/persona non-grata

  5. #51905
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Fair enough. As much as I hate to admit it, you're right.
    Thanks.

    I’m with you on slaveowners, though, or at Least wavering. Yeah, Washington freed his slaves in his will...but doesn’t that just show that he knew it was wrong before, but, well, convenient? If it had just been "mores of the times," why bother to free them on his deathbed? He also signed the Fugitive Slave Act, which was controversial from the beginning. Oh, and I read a story that his dentures were not made of wood - they were made at least in part of human teeth, some of which were probably from slaves.

    And that’s not even getting into Jefferson...

    Tear down their statues? I’m not quite there yet. But here’s where we can at least start providing a lot more context.

  6. #51906
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Where is THIS coming from? My oath as an Officer didn't make mention of the Commander in Chief. My oath was to the Constitution of the United States.
    The point was regarding the fear that Trump could potentially try to refuse to leave office if he loses. I believe the only way that is a legitimate threat is if he had military support for it, which I have seen no reason to believe he'd have.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  7. #51907

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Thanks.

    I’m with you on slaveowners, though, or at Least wavering. Yeah, Washington freed his slaves in his will...but doesn’t that just show that he knew it was wrong before, but, well, convenient? If it had just been "mores of the times," why bother to free them on his deathbed? He also signed the Fugitive Slave Act, which was controversial from the beginning. Oh, and I read a story that his dentures were not made of wood - they were made at least in part of human teeth, some of which were probably from slaves.

    And that’s not even getting into Jefferson...

    Tear down their statues? I’m not quite there yet. But here’s where we can at least start providing a lot more context.
    I've heard this idea in several places...why not move these statues into museums? This would mean we aren't ignoring or whitewashing shameful parts of our country's history, but we aren't celebrating them either.

  8. #51908
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    I've heard this idea in several places...why not move these statues into museums? This would mean we aren't ignoring or whitewashing shameful parts of our country's history, but we aren't celebrating them either.
    I think Texsahara posted a long explanation about that a week or so ago. Something about museums not being repository of unwanted crap.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  9. #51909

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I think Texsahara posted a long explanation about that a week or so ago. Something about museums not being repository of unwanted crap.
    Well, we have museums dedicated to garbage...literally...so, why not Confederate soldiers?

  10. #51910

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    People change!
    Unless Biden changes on M4A, he still sucks.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Thanks.

    I’m with you on slaveowners, though, or at Least wavering. Yeah, Washington freed his slaves in his will...but doesn’t that just show that he knew it was wrong before, but, well, convenient? If it had just been "mores of the times," why bother to free them on his deathbed? He also signed the Fugitive Slave Act, which was controversial from the beginning. Oh, and I read a story that his dentures were not made of wood - they were made at least in part of human teeth, some of which were probably from slaves.

    And that’s not even getting into Jefferson...

    Tear down their statues? I’m not quite there yet. But here’s where we can at least start providing a lot more context.
    Yeah, I can't imagine ever thinking it was OK to own, buy, sell, and rape another human, much less many of them. That's why I'll never give Washington and Jefferson a pass. Washington once tried to hunt down one of his wife's slaves. He was vile.

    I shared this article on FB yesterday. It's really good:

    George and Martha Washington enslaved 300 people. Let’s start with their names.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

    Since this moment of reckoning has led to a prickly discussion about our Founding Fathers’ slave-owning pasts, let us take a moment, starting with George Washington, to think about the people they enslaved.

    Let’s start with the names. Because so few of us know them. Because their names have been omitted from history books and are barely mentioned in the many volumes that chronicle Washington’s life as a military hero and Founding Father.

    Austin

    Moll

    Giles

    Ona Judge

    Paris

    Hercules

    Joe

    Richmond

    Christopher Sheels

    William Lee
    That's only 10 of over 300.

    Did you know that George Washington had only one tooth in his mouth when he became president in 1789, thanks to bad health and 18th-century dentistry? But his false teeth were not made of wood, as is often described in folk songs and lore. His dentures were made from the pulled teeth of slaves.

    Did you know that when Ona Judge escaped, Martha insisted that George do everything in his power to track her down so she could gift her to a granddaughter as an attendant (thus avoiding the need to reimburse her first husband’s estate for loss of property)? And yes, the correct word is “property,” because next to acreage (as in real estate), the enslaved composed the greatest source of wealth for families such as the Washingtons.

    Did you know that Pennsylvania’s Gradual Abolition Act of 1780 held that if you lived in that state for more than six months with enslaved people, they could successfully petition for their freedom?

    Correspondence shows that Washington thought he was exempt from that law because his work required that he reside in the state for an extended period. His attorney general, Edmund Jennings Randolph, cleared up that false impression when he knocked on Washington’s High Street door in Philadelphia one day to say that Randolph’s own slaves had familiarized themselves with that law and were packing up to leave.

    So the Washingtons came up with an elaborate shuffling plan to cycle in and out of Pennsylvania so their slaves would never hit the legal threshold for freedom. Sometimes they would take a trip back to Virginia. Sometimes they would just make an excuse to go across the river to New Jersey. The schedule was complicated and burdensome, but Washington kept it up because he and Martha were determined to keep the people they owned in bondage.
    Washington was evil. I don't care what he did on his deathbed. It does indeed prove he knew it was wrong before he died. The end of the article touches on that:

    Many say Washington deserves some measure of grace because he arranged to free some of his slaves upon his death. So, he did in death what he would not do in life? We must own up to the fact that he owned people, that those people were separated from their loved ones, made to work without pay, made to live without dignity, made to suffer whippings, made to disappear. Because of that their names are monuments unto themselves.
    Tear down the statues.
    "Our work continues, the fight goes on, and the big dreams never die." -- Elizabeth Warren

  11. #51911
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Well, we have museums dedicated to garbage...literally...so, why not Confederate soldiers?
    If someone wants to open a private museum and acquire those statues, they’re welcome to. It should not use a penny of public funds, and it should not be a plan for public policy, which is how youre presenting it.

    I do love the arch and statue in Washington Square. I would miss it if they got rid of it. But then, Washington Square has already had most of the fun squeezed out of it.

  12. #51912
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    I have a hard time believing they're going to rid of Washington and Jefferson monuments.
    NYYFANS: Cashman/persona non-grata

  13. #51913
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Unless Biden changes on M4A, he still sucks.



    Yeah, I can't imagine ever thinking it was OK to own, buy, sell, and rape another human, much less many of them. That's why I'll never give Washington and Jefferson a pass. Washington once tried to hunt down one of his wife's slaves. He was vile.

    I shared this article on FB yesterday. It's really good:

    George and Martha Washington enslaved 300 people. Let’s start with their names.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp



    That's only 10 of over 300.









    Washington was evil. I don't care what he did on his deathbed. It does indeed prove he knew it was wrong before he died. The end of the article touches on that:



    Tear down the statues.
    That was the article I read. If you follow the link about the dentures, the facts aren’t as definitive as their statement of them.

    I agree witvYankees1962, those statues and monuments aren’t going anywhere. That’s not the fight to pick now. Demand context, though.

  14. #51914
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I agree witvYankees1962, those statues and monuments aren’t going anywhere. That’s not the fight to pick now. Demand context, though.
    Yeah, this seems like the moment this movement goes a step too far and you lose the majority. Give context and ask the questions when you teach history, but understand those monuments aren't going anywhere.

  15. #51915
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YFIB View Post
    Yeah, this seems like the moment this movement goes a step too far and you lose the majority. Give context and ask the questions when you teach history, but understand those monuments aren't going anywhere.
    Change is never a swift thing. It takes time for people to adjust. Two months ago, does anyone think a motion to change the Mississippi State flag would even be brought up much less pass? BLM now has mass acceptance and support. Statues are coming downZ is it enough or are we near where we should be? No. But if you want real change, first get support. And it is happening. But can’t go from start to finish in two weeks

  16. #51916
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Change is never a swift thing. It takes time for people to adjust. Two months ago, does anyone think a motion to change the Mississippi State flag would even be brought up much less pass? BLM now has mass acceptance and support. Statues are coming downZ is it enough or are we near where we should be? No. But if you want real change, first get support. And it is happening. But can’t go from start to finish in two weeks
    It's been a pretty amazing period - I never would have expected all this to happen so quickly. Hopefully we can take another giant step in November.

  17. #51917
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YFIB View Post
    It's been a pretty amazing period - I never would have expected all this to happen so quickly. Hopefully we can take another giant step in November.
    It is because of these changes and his failure with Covid that I am very confident. That and nationally Biden is a moderately favorable candidate

  18. #51918
    Administrator Bub's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Election Projection has Biden with a 7.4% popular vote lead. I'm starting to check this every day to see if there is any trend one way or another, and the closer we get to November the better it looks. Still a long way to go.

    https://www.electionprojection.com/p...-elections.php
    Let the kids play.

  19. #51919
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Yet another factor in favor of the Electoral College. With a popular vote, a candidate would only need to cheat in a single contest. But with the EC, it's 50 separate contests.

    Welcome to the Dark Side.

    Yes, much easier to cheat resulting in a swing of 3+ million votes instead of swinging 40,000 votes in rural Wisconsin alone.

  20. #51920
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/u...nty-trump.html

    American officials provided a written briefing in late February to President Trump laying out their conclusion that a Russian military intelligence unit offered and paid bounties to Taliban-linked militants to kill U.S. and coalition troops in Afghanistan, two officials familiar with the matter said.
    February. He knew in February and has not decided on any response - unless you count trying to get Russia back in to the G7 as a response.

    However, it took him 20 minutes to decide to gas protesters outside the White House.

    Disgusting.

    https://www.delawareonline.com/story...ls/3280009001/

    Joe Biden will deliver remarks at a not-yet-disclosed Wilmington location Tuesday, his campaign said.

    Biden will speak about what the campaign calls "Donald Trump’s failure to protect the American people, the need to address the growing pandemic, and how to safely and effectively reopen the economy."

    He is scheduled to speak at 1 p.m., and no further details were available.
    I hope all the networks talk about and carry this event live like they did for Trump's Tulsa disaster a few weeks ago.

    EDIT:
    They knew about it in 2019.
    https://apnews.com/425e43fa0ffdd6e126c5171653ec47d1

    Top officials in the White House were aware in early 2019 of classified intelligence indicating Russia was secretly offering bounties to the Taliban for the deaths of Americans, a full year earlier than has been previously reported, according to U.S. officials with direct knowledge of the intelligence.

    The assessment was included in at least one of President Donald Trump’s written daily intelligence briefings at the time, according to the officials. Then-national security adviser John Bolton also told colleagues he briefed Trump on the intelligence assessment in March 2019.

  21. #51921
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    I wonder what Maynerd thinks of this latest Trump scandal?
    NYYFANS: Cashman/persona non-grata

  22. #51922
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    I wonder what Maynerd thinks of this latest Trump scandal?
    It's like Benghazi, but real.

  23. #51923
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    I wonder what Maynerd thinks of this latest Trump scandal?
    Probably that it’s really bad but Hillary was also bad.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  24. #51924
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankees1962 View Post
    I wonder what Maynerd thinks of this latest Trump scandal?
    1. He doesn't think it's a 'Trump Scandal.' At least, not yet.
    2. The leak of classified information should be the scandal. It's illegal, and it crippled the US' ability to investigate.
    3. If the only means of bringing it to the President's attention was in a written memo, does anyone believe he would have actually...you know...read it?
    4. The basis, so far, seems to be unverified reports from captured Taliban forces.
    5. The intelligence community seems pretty united in the position that it was an on-going investigation, conclusions hadn't been reached, and the President hadn't been briefed.
    6. Whole lot of nothing here (so far.....there could be more to come). But it involves Trump, so the default will be guilty until proven innocent.
    7. I'm much more concerned about the lack of leadership with regard to both Covid-19 and unrest in American cities. That, to me, represents a failure orders of magnitude more harmful than his reaction (or lack thereof) to unverified intelligence briefs that were still being investigated in the field.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  25. #51925
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    1. He doesn't think it's a 'Trump Scandal.' At least, not yet.
    2. The leak of classified information should be the scandal. It's illegal, and it crippled the US' ability to investigate.
    3. If the only means of bringing it to the President's attention was in a written memo, does anyone believe he would have actually...you know...read it?
    4. The basis, so far, seems to be unverified reports from captured Taliban forces.
    5. The intelligence community seems pretty united in the position that it was an on-going investigation, conclusions hadn't been reached, and the President hadn't been briefed.
    6. Whole lot of nothing here (so far.....there could be more to come). But it involves Trump, so the default will be guilty until proven innocent.
    7. I'm much more concerned about the lack of leadership with regard to both Covid-19 and unrest in American cities. That, to me, represents a failure orders of magnitude more harmful than his reaction (or lack thereof) to unverified intelligence briefs that were still being investigated in the field.
    I think all this time Maynerd has been CO GOP Senator Cory Gardner. Sorry for doxxing you.

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