+ Reply to Thread
Page 1698 of 1698 FirstFirst ... 698 1198 1598 1648 1688 1695 1696 1697 1698
Results 42,426 to 42,447 of 42447
  1. #42426
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Man_With_No_Plan View Post
    I can't speak at all for your past with the topic. But to deny the fact that the left and the news media didn't think this was about collusion is a bad move. It's moving the goal posts to avoid the absolutely horrible outcome of admitting Trump was right. Again, not saying this is the case with you specifically, but the mindset out there seems to be that Trump has to be wrong about every single thing. The thought is that this will expose Trump as incompetent and impeachable, but instead it gives him ammo to say "they lie about me".

    So I apologize if it came off as condescending, and I don't mean to disparage your credibility as a whole... but this one situation (specifically the news media and Trump/Russia/collusion/etc.) seems fairly straightforward, and all I'm saying is that it's a bad look to deny the narrative that the media has been pushing for over two years.
    But the media has been pushing the entire scope of the narrative, not just collusion. Trump and his supporters have been pushing it as a collusion-only narrative. I know youíve said youíre not necessarily a Trump supporter, but your narrative is the one thatís moved the goalposts. "Collusion-only" was never the narrative of the Democrats, the opposition to Trump, or the media. Trump has always pushed it.

  2. #42427
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Colorado Springs

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Collusion? Nope.

    This was an investigation into collusion, so it was a waste of time and money? Nope. It was never an investigation framed solely by claims of collusion. The President said "No Collusion" so frequently, that this premise eventually stuck. I don't think the Democrats, or the media, painted themselves into this corner, but they WERE out-maneuvered on this by the President. [And both the Dems and the media should be embarrassed that Trump outwitted them on the framing the issue.]

    Obstruction of Justice? Somewhat doubtful, but certainly not off the table. I would think that if Mueller uncovered clear and convincing evidence of obstruction, then he would not have punted on the issue. Personally, I think "here's the evidence, I won't draw any conclusions and will leave the decision up to the Attorney General" didn't fulfill his obligations and, as such, did a disservice to the American People.

    The entire report must be released to the American People. Absolutely not. As I understand it, the report contains investigatory actions regarding citizens who will not be charged of any crimes. It would be totally inappropriate to release such information (and associated analysis), and is likely a violation of the Fifth Amendment. I'm all for releasing the relevant portions of the report, but any discussion of releasing it in its entirety are completely off base.

    What does all this mean going forward? Trump will over-stress the "no collusion" drivel, and his supporters will eat it up. The NeverTrumpers will over-stress five words from the discussion of obstruction of justice..."it does not exonerate him," while completely ignoring the first half of that sentence "While this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime."

    So we're back at square one. Trump supporters will use the report as a basis of evidence that they're guy was subject to a with hunt, and that subsequent investigations will be grasping at straws, and NeverTrumpers will use the same report to justify those additional investigations. Wonderful. Neither side will dwell on the expense of "2,800 subpoenas, nearly 500 search warrants, more than 230 orders for communication records, almost 50 orders authorizing use of pen registers, 13 requests to foreign governments for evidence, and approximately 500 witnesses". We'll just do it all over again.

    From now on, each party should announce at their nominating conventions who they propose as Special Prosecutor, should the other side win, because we will never again see an incoming administration without the opposite side clamoring for heads from day one. Watergate begat Iran-Contra begat Whitewater begat WMDs begat Benghazi begat Collusion. It will never end.

    Conclusion. I agree with the third take-away from the New York Times: Trump is unfit for office. But this report did nothing to warrant impeachment, nor did it do anything to conclude impeachment is unwarranted. It was nowhere near the smoking gun that so many people hoped to see. Unfitness for office not a suitable criteria for removal from office. That should be up to the voters in another 19 months.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  3. #42428

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Bub View Post
    Trump report card from my perspective:

    Economy - B+
    Foreign Policy - D+
    Health Care - F
    Deficit/Debt - F
    Mass Murder - F
    U.S. Infrastructure - F
    Personal conduct - F

    If the American people re-elect that then that doesn't say very much about us as a whole.
    Well, I'm sure you didn't vote for him the first time ( I didn't either ) and yet ....


    It's clear the House will now impeach ( and he'll never get convicted ). It will not turn out well for them
    do ya lak dags ?

  4. #42429
    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi3 View Post
    Well, I'm sure you didn't vote for him the first time ( I didn't either ) and yet ....


    It's clear the House will now impeach ( and he'll never get convicted ). It will not turn out well for them
    Why is that now clear?

  5. #42430

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    He decided not to charge a criminal conspiracy between the Trump campaign and Russian attempts to nfluence the election. Thatís not the same as no collusion, nor is it the same as no collusion with other bases (quid pro quo). Plus, there are other legal investigations going on. Again: SDNY has already stipulated a conspiracy around the Stony Daniels payoff. They wonít indict him, but they can unindicted co-conspirator him as much as they want. Heís far from out of the woods.

    I love the way that two years of "itís not just about collusion" is suddenly presented as if itís a new fallback plan.

    You have no reason to think Mueller had a confirmation bias.

    PS - what Tex said.
    I don't think the Rosenstein charges to Mueller have been made public, but are you saying that he was somehow restricted in his scope ? Or that he just ignored the other conspiracy theories you posit ?
    do ya lak dags ?

  6. #42431

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Why is that now clear?
    I'd be willing to place a friendly bet on it

    They were always gonna go there anyway, but Mueller provided a road map with his obstruction cop out
    do ya lak dags ?

  7. #42432
    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi3 View Post
    I'd be willing to place a friendly bet on it
    You didn't answer my question.

  8. #42433
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006

    Re: President Donald Trump

    As Seth Abramson, Marcy at emptywheel, and quite a few others have pointed out: this addresses one specific collusion angle. There is at least one other that was apparently not the nvestigated by Mueller. That may simply be because Mueller did not see it as part of his mandate, because it was not about Russian interference in the election.

    As for obstruction, Mueller may have uncovered clear evidence, but found himself unable to indict. There's nothing to suggest that Mueller wanted Barr to weigh the evidenc. Mueller clearly has evidence, and we need to know what it is.

    No one has ever been able to unframe Trump's framing. I donít understand why. He lies, and it sticks. Someone calls out his lie, he screams Fake News, and it sticks.

  9. #42434
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi3 View Post
    I don't think the Rosenstein charges to Mueller have been made public, but are you saying that he was somehow restricted in his scope ? Or that he just ignored the other conspiracy theories you posit ?
    Of course he was restricted in his scope. It was Russian interference in the election, and issues related to that. If there was evidence of talks surrounding a quid pro quo, Mueller might not have felt it was in his scope, or Rosenstein might have felt that way. Itís not a conspiracy theory, thereís actual evidence worth investigating. Hereís one recap:

    https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/02/1...-tower-dangle/

    https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/02/2...cy-agreements/

  10. #42435

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Of course he was restricted in his scope. It was Russian interference in the election, and issues related to that. If there was evidence of talks surrounding a quid pro quo, Mueller might not have felt it was in his scope, or Rosenstein might have felt that way. Itís not a conspiracy theory, thereís actual evidence worth investigating. Hereís one recap:

    https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/02/1...-tower-dangle/

    https://www.emptywheel.net/2019/02/2...cy-agreements/
    Again, I don't see how it's clear that Mueller was unaware of this nad how this "actual evidence " is more convincing than anything else he investigated
    do ya lak dags ?

  11. #42436
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi3 View Post
    Again, I don't see how it's clear that Mueller was unaware of this nad how this "actual evidence " is more convincing than anything else he investigated
    He may have been are of this, and perhaps he did investigate it and covered it in the report. Barr did not mention it, however, so Iím jumping to the conclusion that itís not in the report. If it had been investigated and amounted to nothing, Mueller would have to say that.

  12. #42437

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    You didn't answer my question.
    Welllll,It's clear to me- it's my opinion

    that's the way it usually works here- folks make statements they think are true
    do ya lak dags ?

  13. #42438

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi3 View Post
    Welllll,It's clear to me- it's my opinion

    that's the way it usually works here- folks make statements they think are true

    Okay. I made the mistake of believing you would have a reason for thinking that. I guess not. Carry on.
    Socialism is their name for anything that helps all the people. ~Harry Truman

  14. #42439

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Okay. I made the mistake of believing you would have a reason for thinking that. I guess not. Carry on.
    Bada Bing

    Won't be your last mistake, I'm sure

    So, I guess you don't wanna bet ?
    do ya lak dags ?

  15. #42440

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi3 View Post
    Bada Bing

    Won't be your last mistake, I'm sure

    So, I guess you don't wanna bet ?
    Nope. I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. I do think it's less likely today that they will impeach than it was on Friday.
    Socialism is their name for anything that helps all the people. ~Harry Truman

  16. #42441
    Administrator Bub's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    The Boonies

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ieddyi3 View Post
    Well, I'm sure you didn't vote for him the first time ( I didn't either ) and yet ....
    Correct. I didn't vote for Hillary either.
    Let the kids play.

  17. #42442
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Oh, FFS.

    ďThere are a lot of people out there that have done some very, very evil things, very bad things, I would say some treasonous things against our country,Ē Mr. Trump told reporters at the White House. ďIíve been looking at them for a long time,Ē he added, ďand Iím saying why havenít they been looked at? They lied to Congress, many of them, you know who they are. Theyíve done so many evil things.Ē
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/u...r-revenge.html
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  18. #42443
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006

    Re: President Donald Trump

    And, lest we forget that thereís so much more than collusion:

    But at an Oval Office meeting on Feb. 22, Trump asked top advisers for ways to limit federal support from going to Puerto Rico, believing it is taking money that should be going to the mainland, according to senior administration officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to share details of the presidentís private remarks.

    The meeting ó an afternoon session focused on Department of Housing and Urban Development grants ó ended abruptly, and Trump has continued to ask aides how much money the island will get. Then, Trump said he wanted the money only to fortify the electric grid there.

    Trump has also privately signaled he will not approve any additional help for Puerto Rico beyond the food-stamp money, setting up a congressional showdown with Democrats who have pushed for more expansive help for the island.

    A senior administration official with direct knowledge of the meeting described Trumpís stance: ďHe doesnít want another single dollar going to the island.Ē
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.869aa571c3bb

  19. #42444
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Canada's basement

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Heís gaslighting.
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  20. #42445
    NYYF Legend

    Nome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2000
    Location
    Branchburg, NJ 08876

    Re: President Donald Trump

    So now the man in the oval office has instructed the radio and TV outlets not to allow interviews of people who have criticized him in the past. If followed out there will be NO interviews going forth, except of biased Republicans.


    Andy
    Yogi is a National Treasure. Let's put him in a National Hall of Fame. The man has no peers.

  21. #42446
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    lil'rhody

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    And, lest we forget that thereís so much more than collusion:



    https://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...=.869aa571c3bb
    The cruelty is the point.

    Also, Puerto Rico should be a state, like yesterday.

  22. #42447
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    The cruelty is the point.

    Also, Puerto Rico should be a state, like yesterday.
    Yes. There are reasons that Iíve always thought statehood was not a great idea, but the last year and a half has changed my mind completely. If they were a state, theyíd be getting the food stamps they need, no questions asked. But since theyíre merely brown American citizens on an island, the government is permitted to starve them.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 9 users browsing this thread. (4 members and 5 guests)

  1. ojo
  2. Yankfan55
  3. jlw1980
  4. OFcoombs113

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts