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  1. #42401
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Jul 2006

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Once again, I’ll leave it to Seth Abramson, who has a better and more extensive grasp in the facts than anyone else out there. Excerpts from a long thread:

    On "collusion," investigative reporters and independent journalists just spent years gathering evidence on a very specific allegation of collusion: that for his own enrichment, Trump traded away our foreign policy on Russian sanctions at a time he knew Russia was attacking us.

    We are now being told that *Mueller never investigated* the collusion allegation Trump was facing—on a money-for-sanctions-relief quid pro quo—and *instead* investigated the allegation *as Trump saw it*, which was whether he struck an agreement with the IRA or Russian hackers.

    On this collusion allegation no one was even making against Trump, the Special Counsel *didn't* find "no evidence"—which I would've been fine with, as I've never accused Trump of that type of collusion—he actually just found he didn't have 90%+ proof of that form of collusion.

    So what does it all mean? Well, as the Obstruction determination was *not* made by Mueller—and was improperly made by Barr and Rosenstein—it now falls to Congress to review the underlying evidence and, if House Judiciary finds it appropriate, initiate impeachment proceedings.

    As to collusion, 1) it continues to be *properly* investigated—not in the narrow way Trump demanded and apparently Mueller's team acceded to—in *multiple other federal jurisdictions*; 2) the inability to indict on the *investigated* collusion is *not* an inability to impeach.
    I disagree with him that "no one was even making [that collusion charge] against Trump," because obviously people were. But Abramson, having synthesized way more data than others, wasn’t making it.

    Also, it may we’ll have been appropriate, or at least arguably so, for Mueller to investigate the one collusion charge but not the other, given his original mandate. That doesn’t mean one of the many other investigative bodies (at least three US Attorney's offices, plus Congressional committees) won’t be going there.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SethAbram...13558333210629

  2. #42402

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Except... it wasn't ever just about collusion?
    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Um, I’ve been saying that ever since you first made that argument. Since before then. But don’t let that get in your way.
    Of course, because I only started making the argument after it was becoming obvious there was nothing of substance coming from this report. I'm glad you were both able to see through it from the beginning (I only started posting in here somewhat recently), but tell that to the media coverage the last two years. They certainly thought it was all about the collusion, or at least a story so big that it could validate their petty hatred of Trump by proving he was doing evil things.

  3. #42403

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Man_With_No_Plan View Post
    Of course, because I only started making the argument after it was becoming obvious there was nothing of substance coming from this report. I'm glad you were both able to see through it from the beginning (I only started posting in here somewhat recently), but tell that to the media coverage the last two years. They certainly thought it was all about the collusion, or at least a story so big that it could validate their petty hatred of Trump by proving he was doing evil things.
    No one needs collusion to prove that Trump is doing evil things.
    Socialism is their name for anything that helps all the people. ~Harry Truman

  4. #42404
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Man_With_No_Plan View Post
    Of course, because I only started making the argument after it was becoming obvious there was nothing of substance coming from this report. I'm glad you were both able to see through it from the beginning (I only started posting in here somewhat recently), but tell that to the media coverage the last two years. They certainly thought it was all about the collusion, or at least a story so big that it could validate their petty hatred of Trump by proving he was doing evil things.
    No, as I’ve said before, it was consistently Trump who made the story only about his collusion.

  5. #42405

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Once again, I’ll leave it to Seth Abramson, who has a better and more extensive grasp in the facts than anyone else out there. Excerpts from a long thread:



    I disagree with him that "no one was even making [that collusion charge] against Trump," because obviously people were. But Abramson, having synthesized way more data than others, wasn’t making it.

    Also, it may we’ll have been appropriate, or at least arguably so, for Mueller to investigate the one collusion charge but not the other, given his original mandate. That doesn’t mean one of the many other investigative bodies (at least three US Attorney's offices, plus Congressional committees) won’t be going there.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/SethAbram...13558333210629
    @Popehat, Ken White, has his thoughts on The Letter up as well. Worth a read.
    https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ueller/585628/
    Socialism is their name for anything that helps all the people. ~Harry Truman

  6. #42406

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    No, as I’ve said before, it was consistently Trump who made the story only about his collusion.
    This is not even remotely accurate.

  7. #42407
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Man_With_No_Plan View Post
    This is not even remotely accurate.
    Of course it is. People have been talking about all the indictments and guilty pleas, about the obstruction, about campaign finance - not to mention the Emoluments Clause, nepotism, lack of ethical standards and outright corruption, land all sorts of things. Trump has consistently come back with "NO COLLUSION,” as if everything just came down to that.

    Edit: I almost forgot the felonious conspiracy to commit campaign finance violations, which was directly asserted by the NYSd. People talked about that a bit. But since it was NO COLLUSION, it's not serious.

  8. #42408

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Of course it is. People have been talking about all the indictments and guilty pleas, about the obstruction, about campaign finance - not to mention the Emoluments Clause, nepotism, lack of ethical standards and outright corruption, land all sorts of things. Trump has consistently come back with "NO COLLUSION,” as if everything just came down to that.
    You're really making a foolish move here. You're choosing to go deeper and deeper into your corner to the point where you can't even admit that Democrats were convinced this would be the story of the century and a slam dunk to impeach the President. You can admit that Trump was right! It'll be ok. You can still dislike him, but give him credit where credit is due. In fact, it would help your own credibility to have consistent standards, even for someone you clearly don't like.

  9. #42409
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Man_With_No_Plan View Post
    You're really making a foolish move here. You're choosing to go deeper and deeper into your corner to the point where you can't even admit that Democrats were convinced this would be the story of the century and a slam dunk to impeach the President. You can admit that Trump was right! It'll be ok. You can still dislike him, but give him credit where credit is due. In fact, it would help your own credibility to have consistent standards, even for someone you clearly don't like.
    Whole post edit:

    Deep breaths.

    As it turns out, you’re the one who’s only about collusion, not me. I produce a laundry list of things that were never not talked about, including active federal investigations, and you chuckle condescendingly that I can’t even admit what I’ve always said was not the case.

    And where exactly do you get off judging my credibility and my consistent standards. Since you just got here recently, as you said, what do you think you know about my standards, or my consistency? I seriously don’t need you to tell me how to improve my credibility, and your assessment of it - based on nothing but the extremely consistent lists I’ve been making for the last two years or more on this subject. I neither need nor value your condescending advice concerning my credibility.

  10. #42410

    Re: President Donald Trump

    The Lawfare team has their take on The Letter up now. https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-make-bill-barrs-letter
    Socialism is their name for anything that helps all the people. ~Harry Truman

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