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  1. #23576
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    You keep saying this but then when someone asks if you are okay with people refusing to serve blacks you get indignant. I am okay with the protected classes we have.They have been decided through decades of court cases and the reasoning behind it is clear to me. We are a nation of laws and I respect that. I would like to see federal law protecting sexual orientation. I understand that we have a court system that gives everyone the ample opportunity to be heard so I think we'll get there eventually. I disagree that it has to be all or nothing and I don't think you have made a convincing argument for it.
    My argument is that the logic is inconsistent.

    Let me be clear, I'm not okay with discrimination in any form. However, I believe a private business should be able to choose who they do business with. If they chose to discriminate, the consequences should come from public and social pressures, not legal action.

    Which I have answered. But maybe you missed it.
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  2. #23577
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    In my own defense, I have generally been presenting "but what about" scenarios, and not stating anything as fact. My purpose has been twofold: return the conversation to something productive AND try to force the issue that we're championing discrimination against one group of people while railing against discrimination against another group. We're disgusted about discrimination against people based on their race, gender, or sexual orientation, but we applaud discrimination based on political positions. To me, that seems inconsistent.
    Understood, sometimes conversations do tend to go around in circles
    SJW - bad attempt at insulting people that care about other's rights and not just their own.

  3. #23578
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    Maybe the owner just doesn't like cops. Maybe there was a questionable viral shooting and the owner is using his business as a form of protest. Maybe 90% of his other customers are minorities and told the owner they feel uncomfortable around cops.

    Why does any of that matter?
    What if I changed it to this

    Maybe the owner just doesn't like blacks. Maybe there was a questionable viral shooting where a black man was the shooter and the owner is using his business as a form of protest. Maybe 90% of his other customers are white and told the owner they feel uncomfortable around blacks.

    Why does any of that matter?
    Does that change your opinion?
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  4. #23579
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Understood, sometimes conversations do tend to go around in circles
    Especially when you are trying to have a conversation with multiple people who are asking similar questions. Usually I get four or five people responding to one of my statements and find myself repeating answers and going in circles. It happens when you're on the unpopular side.
    NYYFans Fantasy Baseball - Evil Empire

  5. #23580

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Fully agreed.

    I'm not advocating discrimination. Nor am I saying I sympathize with nazis.

    You just can't pick and choose who in society is more worthy of legal protection.
    Picking and choosing who in society is more worthy of legal protection is something that absolutely can be done and in many ways should be done.

    I'm a straight white male with blonde hair and blue eyes. I get very little if anything in way of government protection...nor should I as I don't need any.

    If I was exactly the same person in every way except gay and black, I would have a whole lot more to overcome, even in 2017 but particularly in the 1980s when I came of age. Forget about my hypothetical rights in my hypothetical newfound identity if you want to, but society is better off, imho, if it can find ways to protect, in this scenario a black gay person from unjustified discrimination so that his potential contributions to society are more likely realized.

    All of this, however, can easily result in unintended consequences and unfair outcomes. How do we govern and measure well intended protections such that we aren't engineering unnatural outcomes and resentment...and further encouraging a culture of resentment and discrimination?

    I don't know that it's really solvable...I think it's an imperfect system designed to help a collection of imperfect people. But we should always try to calibrate and debate and tweak...

  6. #23581
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    In my own defense, I have generally been presenting "but what about" scenarios, and not stating anything as fact. My purpose has been twofold: return the conversation to something productive AND try to force the issue that we're championing discrimination against one group of people while railing against discrimination against another group. We're disgusted about discrimination against people based on their race, gender, or sexual orientation, but we applaud discrimination based on political positions. To me, that seems inconsistent.
    One is a condition of birth that can't be changed

    The other is a choice a person makes of their own free will.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  7. #23582
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Again, I'm clearly struggling with the idea that we can force a business to cater to a protected class, because we LIKE the protected class, but at the same time allow a business to refuse to serve another minority group (not protected), because we DON'T like them.
    We don't force businesses to cater to a protected class because we like that class. It's because it's a protected class. It doesn't matter if we like the protected class or not. It's possible a law was passed MAKING someone a protected class based on popularity, but the popularity is not what causes the forcing.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  8. #23583
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    In a way, having a choice does make a difference. One of the criteria that can define a "suspect classification" is possessing an immutable characteristic.
    Right, but that's as far as defining what is and isn't a suspect classification, not as far as determining what the business owner can do. It's the classification itself that dictates the behavior of the business owner, not the choice or lack thereof of the patron.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  9. #23584
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Really? Then what does?


    Minority status can't be the catalyst, because Nazis have to be a smaller minority than blacks or Hispanics or women.


    Being disadvantaged can't be the catalyst, because I'd have to think being a skinhead is lot more disadvantageous in today's society than being female.


    So why do some classes get protection and others don't, if not that we find certain subsets of the population to be evil and ignorant, and unworthy of protection?
    Law is the catalyst. Law. Law. Law. Law. Law. Law. Law. Law. Law.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  10. #23585
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post

    If some alt.-right type refuses to host a mainline Democratic function, he/she will have to live with the fallout, but I don't see the legal basis for compulsion even without a safety issue assertion. It would be a fun discussion, though.
    Correct. The same thing applies to groups we "like" that aren't protected classes. A private convention center can refuse to host Nazis, Republicans, Democrats, Nobel Peace Prize winners, police officers, or whoever as long as it's not a protected class.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  11. #23586
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    No, but perhaps trolls on baseball message boards.
    Wait, no? The reason you can't refuse to serve a black person is the same thing we're talking about. If you agree that a business shouldn't be able to refuse to serve black people or men, then your issue is not with the idea of forcing a business to serve a customer, but with businesses being forced to serve certain classes of customers.

    (By the way, Troll on an Internet Message Board is not a protected class, so a business could discriminate against them.)
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  12. #23587
    Chapecó, que tristeza theDurk's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Correct. The same thing applies to groups we "like" that aren't protected classes. A private convention center can refuse to host Nazis, Republicans, Democrats, Nobel Peace Prize winners, police officers, or whoever as long as it's not a protected class.
    I remember back in the 70s I was refused service in a tiny roadside burger joint in bumf...k upstate New York. Big dude with a crewcut and military tattoos just pointed to my hair and to a sign saying "No Hippies".

    I guess I deplore his attitude but I defend his right to have it. Same with the Cop thing. If Cops want protection status, they know whom to ask to pass a law.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  13. #23588
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I can tell the difference just fine. I just can't tell why refusing to do business with one is bad, and refusing to do business with the other is good.


    2JAY offered up the obvious omission from my list.


    Do you believe that a private business should be able to deny service to a police officer simply because they are a police officer?
    I personally do not support the idea of refusing to do business with police officers simply because they are police officers, and if I owned a business I would not do that, but the fact is that a business can. I also tend to support the RIGHT of a business to do it.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  14. #23589
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    My argument is that the logic is inconsistent.

    Let me be clear, I'm not okay with discrimination in any form. However, I believe a private business should be able to choose who they do business with. If they chose to discriminate, the consequences should come from public and social pressures, not legal action.

    Which I have answered. But maybe you missed it.
    Not inconsistent. Necessary. History has shown us over and over that public and social pressure will not work.

  15. #23590
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    I personally do not support the idea of refusing to do business with police officers simply because they are police officers, and if I owned a business I would not do that, but the fact is that a business can. I also tend to support the RIGHT of a business to do it.
    Agreed. I wouldn't either. But to be consistent with the protected status.
    SJW - bad attempt at insulting people that care about other's rights and not just their own.

  16. #23591

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Well, clearly you can. I think our position is that you shouldn't be able to.
    When it comes to eliminating discrimination, isn't that the objective?
    No, it isn't.

  17. #23592
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a7ac31c52b82

    Senator Bob Corker, a Republican, states Trump has not shown the stability or competence to be President.
    SJW - bad attempt at insulting people that care about other's rights and not just their own.

  18. #23593
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    I cannot think of a single reason a business should be required to serve someone simply because they are a police officer.
    Of note, this was in the news recently, as an Atlanta area gym has a prohibition against police officers or active duty military becoming members:

    http://www.wrdw.com/content/news/Cop...439482063.html
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  19. #23594
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    That's pretty much been my point with this whole tangent.



    You don't have to let him into the gym. He's male, and that's not protected.

    Male is protected. Gender is a protected class.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  20. #23595

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a7ac31c52b82

    Senator Bob Corker, a Republican, states Trump has not shown the stability or competence to be President.
    I mentioned that earlier but it got lost in this ongoing non-Trump discussion (and Corker up until now has been a Trump ally, more or less). I suspect there will be a unkind twitter mention of Corker failing at something before long made by our president.
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  21. #23596

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Of note, this was in the news recently, as an Atlanta area gym has a prohibition against police officers or active duty military becoming members:

    http://www.wrdw.com/content/news/Cop...439482063.html
    That's too bad but I understand it and am fine with the legality of it. The chasm that has developed between a lot of communities and the police is truly sad. I wish both sides could work harder at finding ways to improve relations.

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