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  1. #51926
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YFIB View Post
    Yeah, this seems like the moment this movement goes a step too far and you lose the majority. Give context and ask the questions when you teach history, but understand those monuments aren't going anywhere.
    At Washington and Jefferson, that's where you lose me. The Confederates were being honored for their fighting to preserve slavery. W & J are honored for their leadership of our country and fighting for its liberation from the oppression of the British. Their activity as slave-owners may diminish them as human beings, but does not diminish the importance of their accomplishments. Provide all the context you want, but leave those statues alone.

    As to the Confederates, I repeat: forget museums, melt them into fire hydrants.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  2. #51927
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    1. He doesn't think it's a 'Trump Scandal.' At least, not yet.
    2. The leak of classified information should be the scandal. It's illegal, and it crippled the US' ability to investigate.
    3. If the only means of bringing it to the President's attention was in a written memo, does anyone believe he would have actually...you know...read it?
    4. The basis, so far, seems to be unverified reports from captured Taliban forces.
    5. The intelligence community seems pretty united in the position that it was an on-going investigation, conclusions hadn't been reached, and the President hadn't been briefed.

    6. Whole lot of nothing here (so far.....there could be more to come). But it involves Trump, so the default will be guilty until proven innocent.
    7. I'm much more concerned about the lack of leadership with regard to both Covid-19 and unrest in American cities. That, to me, represents a failure orders of magnitude more harmful than his reaction (or lack thereof) to unverified intelligence briefs that were still being investigated in the field.
    I agree with the bolded. I'd like to see what other sources can verify this story. The NYT is not the strong newsroom it once was and doesn't get the benefit of doubt from me anymore.

    However, I wouldn't say it's a "whole lot of nothing" either. It will be interesting to see where the story goes from here.
    Stay "We" my friends

  3. #51928
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    5. The intelligence community seems pretty united in the position that it was an on-going investigation, conclusions hadn't been reached, and the President hadn't been briefed.
    Lockstep.

    Just stop it. Either the president is or isn’t too stupid to handle such information. There is always an inherent uncertainty in intelligence gathering.
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  4. #51929
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    At Washington and Jefferson, that's where you lose me. The Confederates were being honored for their fighting to preserve slavery. W & J are honored for their leadership of our country and fighting for its liberation from the oppression of the British. Their activity as slave-owners may diminish them as human beings, but does not diminish the importance of their accomplishments. Provide all the context you want, but leave those statues alone.

    As to the Confederates, I repeat: forget museums, melt them into fire hydrants.
    This is a very important point that gets lost in all of the polarization. I know it's a lesser example, but Lance Armstrong being a garbage human being doesn't diminish the fact that he raised millions of dollars for cancer research and helped make a lot of sick people's lives better as a result.

    I really wish we as a society were better in thinking of things beyond absolutes and lean into the grey areas of what it means to be human.
    Stay "We" my friends

  5. #51930
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    This is a very important point that gets lost in all of the polarization. I know it's a lesser example, but Lance Armstrong being a garbage human being doesn't diminish the fact that he raised millions of dollars for cancer research and helped make a lot of sick people's lives better as a result.

    I really wish we as a society were better in thinking of things beyond absolutes and lean into the grey areas of what it means to be human.
    Yes, which is why the Civil War statues are a no-brainer to me - they were traitors and racists. Not really a lot to honor there.

  6. #51931
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YFIB View Post
    Yes, which is why the Civil War statues are a no-brainer to me - they were traitors and racists. Not really a lot to honor there.
    Oh absolutely. But like theDurk, they lose me at Washington and Jefferson.
    Stay "We" my friends

  7. #51932
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Just stop it. Either the president is or isn’t too stupid to handle such information.
    I don't think "too stupid" is the issue. I think "too selfish" is the actual problem. If the issue brought to him can't be painted in terms of what it can do for HIM, he takes no interest in it. [That's not based on any hard-and-fast evidence, but seems to be the pattern.]
    Quote Originally Posted by ojo
    There is always an inherent uncertainty in intelligence gathering.
    Exactly. So, getting upset over how Trump may have reacted, or failed to react, to uncertain intelligence is foolish. We don't know that he was even briefed. If he was, we don't know what was included in the briefing, nor what degree of certainty was included.

    If this standard had been around in 1941, FDR would have been run out of Washington on a rail.

    Again, I think we're wasting bandwidth on this, hoping that something comes to light that indicates Presidential non-performance following verified adverse information. I don't think that's ever going to bear any fruit. And, it's unnecessary. We already have his lack of leadership with Covid, and with his response to racial unrest. If that's not enough, then I don't think the Times' story is going to sway anyone.

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  8. #51933
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Again, I think we're wasting bandwidth on this, hoping that something comes to light that indicates Presidential non-performance following verified adverse information. I don't think that's ever going to bear any fruit. And, it's unnecessary. We already have his lack of leadership with Covid, and with his response to racial unrest. If that's not enough, then I don't think the Times' story is going to sway anyone.
    I don't know about that. This story has 2 of the most triggering words in the headlines: "Troops" (triggering for the right) and "Russia" (triggering for the left). Those words always get a reaction from either side when they are in the headlines, regardless of what may be happening with civil unrest or COVID.

    If more information comes out confirming this or even making it worse for Trump, it's going to be extremely risky for even GOP politicians to stand by his inaction at that point.
    Stay "We" my friends

  9. #51934
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    I don't know about that. This story has 2 of the most triggering words in the headlines: "Troops" (triggering for the right) and "Russia" (triggering for the left). Those words always get a reaction from either side when they are in the headlines, regardless of what may be happening with civil unrest or COVID.

    If more information comes out confirming this or even making it worse for Trump, it's going to be extremely risky for even GOP politicians to stand by his inaction at that point.
    Yeah, in a world where masks are worn by radical leftists and we just need a little "law and order" to clean up the streets, this story has potential staying power.

    I'm all for waiting to see what the reality is, but I wouldn't dismiss the impact of this one yet.

  10. #51935
    once more unto the breach Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I don't think "too stupid" is the issue. I think "too selfish" is the actual problem. If the issue brought to him can't be painted in terms of what it can do for HIM, he takes no interest in it. [That's not based on any hard-and-fast evidence, but seems to be the pattern.]Exactly. So, getting upset over how Trump may have reacted, or failed to react, to uncertain intelligence is foolish. We don't know that he was even briefed. If he was, we don't know what was included in the briefing, nor what degree of certainty was included.

    If this standard had been around in 1941, FDR would have been run out of Washington on a rail.

    Again, I think we're wasting bandwidth on this, hoping that something comes to light that indicates Presidential non-performance following verified adverse information. I don't think that's ever going to bear any fruit. And, it's unnecessary. We already have his lack of leadership with Covid, and with his response to racial unrest. If that's not enough, then I don't think the Times' story is going to sway anyone.
    He can be stupid AND selfish. In fact, I think he is.

    No bandwidth is being wasted. This story is not only political or all about Trump or the election. There is still the matter of how Russia should be dealt with if they are, in fact, offering bounties on American heads. That is a serious matter and a very big deal regardless of Trump's involvement.

  11. #51936
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YFIB View Post
    I'm all for waiting to see what the reality is, but I wouldn't dismiss the impact of this one yet.
    Sure, and that's why I said "not yet." Twice.

    Making this an issue NOW is inviting "fake news" responses. Watergate, without the 'Smoking Gun' tape, wouldn't have brought down a Presidency. Until the equivalent of a 'Smoking Gun' tape materializes here, I don't see this having any traction.

    Unverified information is still classified, because releasing what we know or suspect can completely hinder our ability to gain more information, or to verify what we suspect. The Times published that unverified information, and our ability to determine its merit went pfft. So now, the biggest question will be 'what level of certainty was included in any briefings, if those briefings even occurred?' That's not much to hang your hat on.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  12. #51937
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    There is always a tweet - version 8,492.

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/...826988544?s=20
    Quote Originally Posted by Donald Trump 9/30/2014
    Fact--Obama does not read his intelligence briefings nor does he get briefed in person by the CIA or DOD. Too busy I guess!

  13. #51938
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    1. He doesn't think it's a 'Trump Scandal.' At least, not yet.
    2. The leak of classified information should be the scandal. It's illegal, and it crippled the US' ability to investigate.
    3. If the only means of bringing it to the President's attention was in a written memo, does anyone believe he would have actually...you know...read it?
    4. The basis, so far, seems to be unverified reports from captured Taliban forces.
    5. The intelligence community seems pretty united in the position that it was an on-going investigation, conclusions hadn't been reached, and the President hadn't been briefed.
    6. Whole lot of nothing here (so far.....there could be more to come). But it involves Trump, so the default will be guilty until proven innocent.
    7. I'm much more concerned about the lack of leadership with regard to both Covid-19 and unrest in American cities. That, to me, represents a failure orders of magnitude more harmful than his reaction (or lack thereof) to unverified intelligence briefs that were still being investigated in the field.
    I disagree completely with 1-6, and with parts of 7 as well.

  14. #51939
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I disagree completely with 1-6, and with parts of 7 as well.
    [#3] You think Trump read something that someone put in a folder and gave to him?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  15. #51940
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    1. He doesn't think it's a 'Trump Scandal.' At least, not yet.
    2. The leak of classified information should be the scandal. It's illegal, and it crippled the US' ability to investigate.
    3. If the only means of bringing it to the President's attention was in a written memo, does anyone believe he would have actually...you know...read it?
    4. The basis, so far, seems to be unverified reports from captured Taliban forces.
    5. The intelligence community seems pretty united in the position that it was an on-going investigation, conclusions hadn't been reached, and the President hadn't been briefed.
    6. Whole lot of nothing here (so far.....there could be more to come). But it involves Trump, so the default will be guilty until proven innocent.
    7. I'm much more concerned about the lack of leadership with regard to both Covid-19 and unrest in American cities. That, to me, represents a failure orders of magnitude more harmful than his reaction (or lack thereof) to unverified intelligence briefs that were still being investigated in the field.
    I should have known better.
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  16. #51941
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    [#3] You think Trump read something that someone put in a folder and gave to him?
    He may not have but it’s his job to have read it.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  17. #51942
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    He may not have but it’s his job to have read it.
    Yeah, this. He was briefed on it. If he wasn’t going to read it, he could have someone read it to him.

    The NSC met about it. Our allies were briefed on it. If no one in his administration made sure he understood, that’s the boss's responsibility.

    The information itself is a much bigger problem than the leak.

  18. #51943
    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Yeah, this. He was briefed on it. If he wasn’t going to read it, he could have someone read it to him.

    The NSC met about it. Our allies were briefed on it. If no one in his administration made sure he understood, that’s the boss's responsibility.

    The information itself is a much bigger problem than the leak.
    The leaking is probably necessary at this stage.

  19. #51944
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Sure, and that's why I said "not yet." Twice.

    Making this an issue NOW is inviting "fake news" responses. Watergate, without the 'Smoking Gun' tape, wouldn't have brought down a Presidency. Until the equivalent of a 'Smoking Gun' tape materializes here, I don't see this having any traction.

    Unverified information is still classified, because releasing what we know or suspect can completely hinder our ability to gain more information, or to verify what we suspect. The Times published that unverified information, and our ability to determine its merit went pfft. So now, the biggest question will be 'what level of certainty was included in any briefings, if those briefings even occurred?' That's not much to hang your hat on.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/30/u...elligence.html

    American officials intercepted electronic data showing large financial transfers from a bank account controlled by Russia’s military intelligence agency to a Taliban-linked account, which was among the evidence that supported their conclusion that Russia covertly offered bounties for killing U.S. and coalition troops in Afghanistan, according to three officials familiar with the intelligence.

    Though the United States has accused Russia of providing general support to the Taliban before, analysts concluded from other intelligence that the transfers were most likely part of a bounty program that detainees described during interrogations. Investigators also identified by name numerous Afghans in a network linked to the suspected Russian operation, the officials said — including, two of them added, a man believed to have served as an intermediary for distributing some of the funds and who is now thought to be in Russia.

    The intercepts bolstered the findings gleaned from the interrogations, helping reduce an earlier disagreement among intelligence analysts and agencies over the reliability of the detainees. The disclosures further undercut White House officials’ claim that the intelligence was too uncertain to brief President Trump. In fact, the information was provided to him in his daily written brief in late February, two officials have said.
    Smoking gun?

  20. #51945
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    I don't know about that. This story has 2 of the most triggering words in the headlines: "Troops" (triggering for the right) and "Russia" (triggering for the left). Those words always get a reaction from either side when they are in the headlines, regardless of what may be happening with civil unrest or COVID.

    If more information comes out confirming this or even making it worse for Trump, it's going to be extremely risky for even GOP politicians to stand by his inaction at that point.
    You really like holding onto the notion that “Russia” can be reduced to being a “trigger for the left”, huh.

    I mean, to each their own, but some of us were well aware of what Putin was up to long before Trump threw his hat into the ring back in 2015.
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  21. #51946
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    You really like holding onto the notion that “Russia” can be reduced to being a “trigger for the left”, huh.

    I mean, to each their own, but some of us were well aware of what Putin was up to long before Trump threw his hat into the ring back in 2015.
    The word "Russia" is absolutely a trigger for the left. That fact does not reduce the veracity of the story as we know it. This story could be true or not true. But I guarantee that it will have a longer news cycle because of Russia being mentioned.

    Add "Troops" to the same headline and now you have the eyeballs of the "If you don't support the war, you don't support the troops!" crowd to the same story, as well as the politicians who represent them.

    And that's my point- This isn't going away because of the unique way in how it piques both sides' interests.
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  22. #51947
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Durden View Post
    The word "Russia" is absolutely a trigger for the left. That fact does not reduce the veracity of the story as we know it. This story could be true or not true. But I guarantee that it will have a longer news cycle because of Russia being mentioned.

    Add "Troops" to the same headline and now you have the eyeballs of the "If you don't support the war, you don't support the troops!" crowd to the same story, as well as the politicians who represent them.

    And that's my point- This isn't going away because of the unique way in how it piques both sides' interests.
    I can only speak for myself but when you use the word trigger, you lose me entirely. ymmv.

  23. #51948
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    Smoking gun?
    It could be. But not necessarily. Of particular note, "...helping reduce an earlier disagreement among intelligence analysts and agencies over the reliability of the detainees." Before this becomes a Trump scandal, we'd need to know more about that disagreement, and whether POTUS was briefed before or after that disagreement was reduced. And, we'd need to know what 'reduced' even means. If you go from 3-out-of-5 agencies questioning the veracity of the information to 2-out-of-5 questioning its legitimacy, you've reduced the disagreement, but still don't have a firm consensus.

    I still have this in the "too early to know anything" pile. It's concernful, but not yet damning. I already have a bunch of stuff in the 'damning' pile, which is why I'm not overly concerned with this, unless and until we have more than speculation as to what occurred. Howard Baker's "What did the President know and when did he know it" won't come to fruition until well after the election.

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  24. #51949
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    I can only speak for myself but when you use the word trigger, you lose me entirely. ymmv.
    So, you're triggered by the word "trigger?"

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  25. #51950
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    So, you're triggered by the word "trigger?"
    Que será será.

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