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  1. #22376
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Either way, it is blaming the victim of violence for the violent act.
    Technically true, but in one case I think it's partially warranted, in the other case I don't. I don't see the issue with making a distinction like that based on what the victim did or didn't do to provoke the violence.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  2. #22377

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    That's a ridiculous analogy.
    Good talk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    I don't think the argument I'm making is like that at all. The "look how she was dressed" argument makes all kinds of disgusting assumptions, like that wearing less clothes suggests you are asking for sex. If someone's wearing a Nazi swastika, the assumption that they stand for the thing that symbol stands for is on far firmer ground. If the Nazi is saying the things directly, even more so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Technically true, but in one case I think it's partially warranted, in the other case I don't. I don't see the issue with making a distinction like that based on what the victim did or didn't do to provoke the violence.
    You're killing it tonight, my friend.

  3. #22378

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Heather Heyer was a 32 year old paralegal. She was murdered in today's act of terrorism.

    https://www.gofundme.com/our-sisters...r-heatherheyer

  4. #22379

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Good talk.
    We can talk about how ridiculous it is if you like.

    Let's start here:

    Our grandparents shot and killed Nazis.

    Is that what you're proposing we do?

    Shoot and kill American citizens whose ideology we disagree with?

  5. #22380
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I get all this. I agree with most of it.

    But unless your argument is that they are responsible for any violence that is directed towards themselves as a result of them assembling and speaking solely because of what they stand for, (and that doesn't appear to be the case) the whole 'inciting violence on a practical level' thing doesn't have any real meaning.

    It's like trying to assign fault to a legal act based on how you feel about the group who is committing that act.
    As Kevin basically said, you are arguing semantics rather than reality. His argument is that their constitutionally protected speech is de
    Iberately yateful and provocative, in a way that encourages confrontations where there is a significantly increased possibility of violence. In the real world, they incite it.

  6. #22381

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    As Kevin basically said, you are arguing semantics rather than reality. His argument is that their constitutionally protected speech is de
    Iberately yateful and provocative, in a way that encourages confrontations where there is a significantly increased possibility of violence. In the real world, they incite it.
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.

  7. #22382

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.
    The word incite has a meaning beyond the legal one. Talking about human behavior and why people might respond violently to some situations is not justifying their behavior. Everyone has agreed that violence is wrong.

    A man's daughter is raped. The rapist is freed on a technicality. The man beats up the rapist. I can understand that behavior and empathize with him without condoning his acts.

  8. #22383
    NYYF Legend


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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    The word incite has a meaning beyond the legal one. Talking about human behavior and why people might respond violently to some situations is not justifying their behavior. Everyone has agreed that violence is wrong.
    A man's daughter is raped. The rapist is freed on a technicality. The man beats up the rapist. I can understand that behavior and empathize with him without condoning his acts.
    I can say this. If I walked down Times Square in a German WW2 uniform carrying a swastika flag I would fully expect to get my backside beaten in. Technically I would be a victim of assault but also guilty of putting myself in position to be assaulted.
    Posts in invisible key strokes

  9. #22384
    NYYF Legend

    Trish's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.
    I wasn't at the rally so I don't know who started what, but in this clip it looks like one of the Nazis charged an counter-demonstrator.
    https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/s...05506206789633

  10. #22385
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.
    You really need to get laid.
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  11. #22386

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I don't like the idea of violence against someone expressing their civil rights, no matter how vile I might find their opinions to be. I know you're not condoning it, but the argument you're making sounds a lot like 'look how she was dressed' (which in this case would be Nazi regalia so it doesn't exactly work, but you get what I'm saying.)

    That said, I don't think we're that far apart. There are some who believe that violence is justified against certain groups. Nazis believe this. So do some who oppose them.
    "Certain groups."

    All things are the same things.

  12. #22387
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear.
    Don't even need to go further. This is not the first time you've used the Brandenburg test as a proxy for reality. It's not reality, it's law,. The law uses specialized and stylized definitions to be applied in a particular way in a particular context for a particular reason that only matter within the law.

    You can call someone "insane" without using the M'Naghten rule as your definition. M'Naghten is strictly for the courtroom, not real life. Similarly, we can use "inciting" and "violence" to describe real life without having to apply the Brandenburg test.

  13. #22388
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.
    Disagree with all of this as an argument for the reasons John stated above. I do, however agree with the awfulness of Dr. John's autocorrect.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  14. #22389
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Disagree with all of this as an argument other than with the awfulness of Dr. John's autocorrect.
    It could have something to do with my thumbs.

  15. #22390
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    It could have something to do with my thumbs.
    No, it is your autocorrect. Your thumbs are doing great!
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  16. #22391

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    No, it is your autocorrect. Your thumbs are doing great!
    oh my
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  17. #22392
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    oh my
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  18. #22393
    Rawger in Jawge's Bawx ArodEra's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    No, it is your autocorrect. Your thumbs are doing great!



  19. #22394
    Rawger in Jawge's Bawx ArodEra's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    I applaud Ivanka.




  20. #22395

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    You really need to get laid.
    Seriously.

  21. #22396

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I applaud Ivanka.

    Yes. Very brave of her to take a stand against a significant enough portion of her fathers base.

  22. #22397

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I applaud Ivanka.

    For saying what any thinking and moral person should be saying? It's not like she's climbing out on a political limb here which makes what her father didn't say so tone deaf.
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  23. #22398
    NYYF Legend


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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Yes. Very brave of her to take a stand against a significant enough portion of her fathers base.
    And something HE should have SAID yesterday.
    Posts in invisible key strokes

  24. #22399
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    For saying what any thinking and moral person should be saying? It's not like she's climbing out on a political limb here which makes what her father didn't say so tone deaf.
    Again, I feel like we're grading on a gigantic curve there, and I fear that thanks to this presidency, that curve is never going to go away completely.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  25. #22400
    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Yes. Very brave of her to take a stand against a significant enough portion of her fathers base.
    Oh please. Disavowing Nazis is one of the easiest things ever. There's nothing brave about it.

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