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  1. #22376

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Heather Heyer was a 32 year old paralegal. She was murdered in today's act of terrorism.

    https://www.gofundme.com/our-sisters...r-heatherheyer
    "A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people."
    -- Declaration of Independence

  2. #22377

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Good talk.
    We can talk about how ridiculous it is if you like.

    Let's start here:

    Our grandparents shot and killed Nazis.

    Is that what you're proposing we do?

    Shoot and kill American citizens whose ideology we disagree with?

  3. #22378
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I get all this. I agree with most of it.

    But unless your argument is that they are responsible for any violence that is directed towards themselves as a result of them assembling and speaking solely because of what they stand for, (and that doesn't appear to be the case) the whole 'inciting violence on a practical level' thing doesn't have any real meaning.

    It's like trying to assign fault to a legal act based on how you feel about the group who is committing that act.
    As Kevin basically said, you are arguing semantics rather than reality. His argument is that their constitutionally protected speech is de
    Iberately yateful and provocative, in a way that encourages confrontations where there is a significantly increased possibility of violence. In the real world, they incite it.

  4. #22379

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    As Kevin basically said, you are arguing semantics rather than reality. His argument is that their constitutionally protected speech is de
    Iberately yateful and provocative, in a way that encourages confrontations where there is a significantly increased possibility of violence. In the real world, they incite it.
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.

  5. #22380
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Sep 2011

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.
    The word incite has a meaning beyond the legal one. Talking about human behavior and why people might respond violently to some situations is not justifying their behavior. Everyone has agreed that violence is wrong.

    A man's daughter is raped. The rapist is freed on a technicality. The man beats up the rapist. I can understand that behavior and empathize with him without condoning his acts.

  6. #22381
    Reject Fascism
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    The word incite has a meaning beyond the legal one. Talking about human behavior and why people might respond violently to some situations is not justifying their behavior. Everyone has agreed that violence is wrong.
    A man's daughter is raped. The rapist is freed on a technicality. The man beats up the rapist. I can understand that behavior and empathize with him without condoning his acts.
    I can say this. If I walked down Times Square in a German WW2 uniform carrying a swastika flag I would fully expect to get my backside beaten in. Technically I would be a victim of assault but also guilty of putting myself in position to be assaulted.
    2018: the year the USA put children in cages

  7. #22382
    NYYF Legend

    Trish's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.
    I wasn't at the rally so I don't know who started what, but in this clip it looks like one of the Nazis charged an counter-demonstrator.
    https://twitter.com/KeithOlbermann/s...05506206789633

  8. #22383
    Word of the Year is Complicit ojo's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.
    You really need to get laid.
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  9. #22384

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I don't like the idea of violence against someone expressing their civil rights, no matter how vile I might find their opinions to be. I know you're not condoning it, but the argument you're making sounds a lot like 'look how she was dressed' (which in this case would be Nazi regalia so it doesn't exactly work, but you get what I'm saying.)

    That said, I don't think we're that far apart. There are some who believe that violence is justified against certain groups. Nazis believe this. So do some who oppose them.
    "Certain groups."

    All things are the same things.

  10. #22385
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear.
    Don't even need to go further. This is not the first time you've used the Brandenburg test as a proxy for reality. It's not reality, it's law,. The law uses specialized and stylized definitions to be applied in a particular way in a particular context for a particular reason that only matter within the law.

    You can call someone "insane" without using the M'Naghten rule as your definition. M'Naghten is strictly for the courtroom, not real life. Similarly, we can use "inciting" and "violence" to describe real life without having to apply the Brandenburg test.

  11. #22386
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I am arguing reality. The Brandenburg test is pretty clear. Either you're inciting violence or you aren't. If you are, you're breaking the law. If you're not, you're just saying something someone doesn't like. That's not against the law, nor is it an excuse for someone to use violence against you.

    'Inciting violence on a practical level' isn't a real thing. It's an attempt to justify violence.

    Also, your phone has the worst auto-correct I've ever seen.

    It's like auto-incorrect.
    Disagree with all of this as an argument for the reasons John stated above. I do, however agree with the awfulness of Dr. John's autocorrect.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  12. #22387
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Disagree with all of this as an argument other than with the awfulness of Dr. John's autocorrect.
    It could have something to do with my thumbs.

  13. #22388
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    It could have something to do with my thumbs.
    No, it is your autocorrect. Your thumbs are doing great!
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  14. #22389

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    No, it is your autocorrect. Your thumbs are doing great!
    oh my
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  15. #22390
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    oh my
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  16. #22391

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    No, it is your autocorrect. Your thumbs are doing great!

  17. #22392

    Re: President Donald Trump

    I applaud Ivanka.


  18. #22393

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    You really need to get laid.
    Seriously.

  19. #22394

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I applaud Ivanka.

    Yes. Very brave of her to take a stand against a significant enough portion of her fathers base.

  20. #22395

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    I applaud Ivanka.

    For saying what any thinking and moral person should be saying? It's not like she's climbing out on a political limb here which makes what her father didn't say so tone deaf.
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  21. #22396
    Reject Fascism
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Yes. Very brave of her to take a stand against a significant enough portion of her fathers base.
    And something HE should have SAID yesterday.
    2018: the year the USA put children in cages

  22. #22397
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    New Jersey

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    For saying what any thinking and moral person should be saying? It's not like she's climbing out on a political limb here which makes what her father didn't say so tone deaf.
    Again, I feel like we're grading on a gigantic curve there, and I fear that thanks to this presidency, that curve is never going to go away completely.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  23. #22398
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    Yes. Very brave of her to take a stand against a significant enough portion of her fathers base.
    Oh please. Disavowing Nazis is one of the easiest things ever. There's nothing brave about it.

  24. #22399

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Don't even need to go further. This is not the first time you've used the Brandenburg test as a proxy for reality. It's not reality, it's law,. The law uses specialized and stylized definitions to be applied in a particular way in a particular context for a particular reason that only matter within the law.

    You can call someone "insane" without using the M'Naghten rule as your definition. M'Naghten is strictly for the courtroom, not real life. Similarly, we can use "inciting" and "violence" to describe real life without having to apply the Brandenburg test.
    First, I'm not calling Coffee a Nazi as I have no idea his true views on Nazis or anybody else.

    But it's not a good faith conversation starter to muse, on the same day as the mayhem, about whether or not people marching in the streets with Nazi signs and chanting Nazi slogans are inciting violence or not, unless you are clear at the outset that you are focused on the legal and constitutional aspects of their actions and how this might be treated in a court of law.

    Any reasonably intelligent and good faith poster or observer knows it's provocative in an internet to wonder without context for the question if Nazis marching through the streets chanting these things are inciting violence.

    If somebody had said "they don't have the right to espouse hate speech or Nazi views" and the response was "well there is this first ammendment thing that protects their right to say stuff...", thats completely fair.

    If one goes back and reads he question it was, without a doubt, a leading one (intentionally or not) that would likely end up in a discussion about first amendment rights. It's a straw man, actually, and why these conversations are a total waste of time when one comes in with an agenda, or one comes in without the sense to know how irrelevant the question is to the current situation.

    It reminds me of that kid in first year poly-sci who manages at least once a month who manages to work in "I detest what you say but defend your right to say it" into class discussion while the people seriously engaged in the meat of the conversation at hand sit and roll their eyes.

  25. #22400

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Oh please. Disavowing Nazis is one of the easiest things ever. There's nothing brave about it.
    Check your sarcasm meter. Applauding her for saying this is pathetic.

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