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  1. #9176

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I would take him over anyone in the Republican or Democratic fields last year. I still didn't vote for him in 2012. i had no trouble reconciling that, but if you have a hard time, maybe I don't think what I think I think. I have to remember to check with you first.
    You don't have to answer this...

    Did you stay home or did you vote for Romney?
    George, Gabe, Stick >>> Hal, Randy, Cash

  2. #9177

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Shakespearean or not, using "ladies" as an insult is offensive.
    Methinks this lady doth protest all the time.

  3. #9178
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Do you really think saying "at least Obama made one vapid/offensive comment rather than two" is much of a defense?
    Not a good defense at all. That doesn't really matter though. The attempt to defend was indicative of the point I'm trying to make.

  4. #9179

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    You don't have to answer this...

    Did you stay home or did you vote for Romney?
    I'm pretty sure he's said that he voted third party.

  5. #9180

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    You don't have to answer this...

    Did you stay home or did you vote for Romney?
    It works better when he thinks otherwise.


  6. #9181

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Not a good defense at all. That doesn't really matter though. The attempt to defend was indicative of the point I'm trying to make.
    I also think the two statements are completely different.

    I don't have a problem calling slaves immigrants. They were by definition. Of course, Obama mentioned that they were involuntary immigrants.

    Carson, however, talked about slaves having ideas about taking part in the American Dream. That's some dumb ass .................


  7. #9182
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    I also think the two statements are completely different.

    I don't have a problem calling slaves immigrants. They were by definition. Of course, Obama mentioned that they were involuntary immigrants.

    Carson, however, talked about slaves having ideas about taking part in the American Dream. That's some dumb ass .................
    Don't agree.
    im·mi·grant
    ˈiməɡrənt/
    noun
    noun: immigrant; plural noun: immigrants
    a person who comes to live permanently in a foreign country.
    1. Slaves weren't people, they were considered property at the time.
    2. They didn't come here. They were taken by force.

    Go through some of these. Here's a gem:
    And so what we wanted to do was adapt to the times, adapt to the 21st century, but also remind ourselves that there are some old-fashioned, timeworn values; that whether your forebears landed at Ellis Island or they came here on a slave ship or they crossed the Rio Grande, or however they got here, they typically had a commitment to hard work and a commitment to community and a commitment to family and a willingness to dream big dreams, and a patriotism that was not rooted in ethnicity but was rooted in a creed and a set of ideals and a belief that in America anything was possible. -Obama
    http://thefederalist.com/2017/03/07/...to-immigrants/

  8. #9183
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Not a good defense at all. That doesn't really matter though. The attempt to defend was indicative of the point I'm trying to make.
    The point you're trying to make is that he's overly partisan. Isn't one of the prerequisites of being partisan on an issue to support or agree with what "your side" is saying?
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  9. #9184
    Chapecó, que tristeza theDurk's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by jcarey View Post
    This doesn't make sense to me, but whether or not smoking and drinking combined add more to the health care burden than obesity is irrelevant. It should probably all be addressed.



    It is simple at the level we're talking about, though implementation is more difficult.



    First, we're not picking on sins unconnected to the cost of health care though, like "I don't like you doing this thing because morals, so let's tax it." Activities that have the strongest connection to higher costs for everyone in the pool should be deterred. Can be through other measures - not sure what they may be though.

    Second, we're not excluding anyone from health care coverage, especially if it's targeted at higher-income earners.

    Third, we draw lines like this in policy all the time. You take the biggest culprits and work your way down. When there are diminishing returns, you stop. We regulate emissions from your car but not your chainsaw because the former is useful but the latter is not.

    Fourth, I'd prefer single-payer as well, but this conversation started when someone mentioned that it "wasn't going to happen" and we needed to focus on the system we have. But even under single payer, actual costs will be different for everyone and you'll have to incentivize healthy living somehow or costs will still be too high.





    Keep banging that drum.

    If you're suggesting it's punishing fat people for the sake of punishing fat people, you're wrong.

    If you have a problem with fat people paying more when they're causing higher costs for everyone else (including poor people), explain why that's problematic or offensive.

    Anyway, after speaking with a physician, it seems like BMI is used because 1. it's easier and cheaper (by far) than a BF% test and 2. it really does a good enough job, though some muscular people will be treated unfairly. I mentioned the article YT (I think) posted, and she said that being overweight obviously doesn't lead to problems immediately for all people, but costs will be higher down the road.
    Your numbers clearly overstate the economic issue, though. You can't take all the costs of obesity related diseases, including things like strokes, heart attacks and cancer, and say these are the costs of being obese. There is a percentage point increase in probability, but it's not as though thin people don't get those diseases. You also can't whine about how those costs account for X% of all health care costs, without revealing what % of the population are obese under your definition.

    Obesity is really a pre-existing condition. You really don't expect an economic incentive to have a substantial effect on the weight of these people, do you? I'd like to see what the estimates on that are. No, you really just want to shift who bears the cost away from you, but thank goodness your sins rank a little lower on the hit parade of unhealthy choices.

    My problem is that I foresee that if you have measures that are draconian enough to have the cost-shifting effect that you desire, you will force enough of those people off health insurance into the non-covered category, and society will be dealing with literally tons of uncovered fat people clogging up emergency rooms.

    I don't see a pretty result from this policy. Unless you will just be satisfied with a tax on rich, fat people making you feel good, because just that won't move your insurance bill.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  10. #9185
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    The point you're trying to make is that he's overly partisan. Isn't one of the prerequisites of being partisan on an issue to support or agree with what "your side" is saying?
    I don't think there's set prerequisites. Being prejudicial towards a point of view is sufficient. (ie Carson = Bad v Obama = Good). Now that I showed Obama also made the 'American Dream' comparison, are we done here?

  11. #9186

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Don't agree.


    1. Slaves weren't people, they were considered property at the time.
    2. They didn't come here. They were taken by force.

    Go through some of these. Here's a gem:

    And so what we wanted to do was adapt to the times, adapt to the 21st century, but also remind ourselves that there are some old-fashioned, timeworn values; that whether your forebears landed at Ellis Island or they came here on a slave ship or they crossed the Rio Grande, or however they got here, they typically had a commitment to hard work and a commitment to community and a commitment to family and a willingness to dream big dreams, and a patriotism that was not rooted in ethnicity but was rooted in a creed and a set of ideals and a belief that in America anything was possible. -Obama
    http://thefederalist.com/2017/03/07/...to-immigrants/
    Nice find.

    Same sentiments as you.



  12. #9187

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    I don't think there's set prerequisites. Being prejudicial towards a point of view is sufficient. (ie Carson = Bad v Obama = Good). Now that I showed Obama also made the 'American Dream' comparison, are we done here?

  13. #9188
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    I don't think there's set prerequisites. Being prejudicial towards a point of view is sufficient. (ie Carson = Bad v Obama = Good). Now that I showed Obama also made the 'American Dream' comparison, are we done here?
    I don't think so, since you're still claiming partisanship, which has nothing to do with any of that. Essentially he said what Obama said is bad and what Carson said is bad, and you're taking that and somehow seeing partisanship and that he's saying that what Obama said is good. It's just a really strange statement for you to be using as evidence of partisanship.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  14. #9189
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    I don't think so, since you're still claiming partisanship, which has nothing to do with any of that. Essentially he said what Obama said is bad and what Carson said is bad, and you're taking that and somehow seeing partisanship and that he's saying that what Obama said is good. It's just a really strange statement for you to be using as evidence of partisanship.
    You keep excluding the 'At least Obama' part. That will always be there for some.

  15. #9190
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    You keep excluding the 'At least Obama' part. That will always be there for some.
    So you think saying "what party/person X did is bad, but what party/person Y did is worse?" is a partisan statement? I don't think that's what blind partisanship is, or certainly not to an extreme degree. There are plenty of people here who are partisan to a fault, and plenty of others who can be partisan to a fault on other issues, but choosing JL and that issue seems an odd choice because I don't think he's particularly overpartisan by this thread's standards, nor do I see that statement as partisan. Choosing a post where someone's criticizing the party they more closely identify with and pointing it out as an example of excessive partisanship just seems weird.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  16. #9191

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Interesting idea. Not sure if I buy it or not. A bit conspiracy theory-ish.

    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...d-to-fail-ahca

    Quietly, the idea that the House bill is designed to fail is percolating around Washington. I’ve heard it from a half-dozen people now. The law’s construction is shoddy. The outreach has been nonexistent. The hypocritical, hyper-accelerated process is baffling. Nothing about it makes sense.

    But if you flip the intention — if you assume Republican leaders want to see a repeal-and-replace bill die in the Senate so they can say they tried and move on to tax reform — all of a sudden, it makes much more sense. It explains why more time wasn’t spent getting the bill right. It explains why they’re going so fast. It explains why they don’t care what the Congressional Budget Office says. It explains why they aren’t doing the outreach that would normally buffer them from this backlash.

  17. #9192

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Interesting idea. Not sure if I buy it or not. A bit conspiracy theory-ish.

    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...d-to-fail-ahca
    Or they could just be this inept and stupid.

  18. #9193
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Interesting idea. Not sure if I buy it or not. A bit conspiracy theory-ish.

    http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...d-to-fail-ahca
    Yeah, not impossible I suppose, but I go with Hanlon's Razor here.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  19. #9194

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Yeah, not impossible I suppose, but I go with Hanlon's Razor here.
    I also don't see the political benefit for them.

  20. #9195
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    So you think saying "what party/person X did is bad, but what party/person Y did is worse?" is a partisan statement? I don't think that's what blind partisanship is, or certainly not to an extreme degree. There are plenty of people here who are partisan to a fault, and plenty of others who can be partisan to a fault on other issues, but choosing JL and that issue seems an odd choice because I don't think he's particularly overpartisan by this thread's standards, nor do I see that statement as partisan. Choosing a post where someone's criticizing the party they more closely identify with and pointing it out as an example of excessive partisanship just seems weird.
    John chose Obama as his POTUS for 2017 if he could choose anyone. You make it seem like a stretch I'm seeing bias when he discusses two people saying the same thing.

    The fact two people said the exact same thing, and there was only outrage when one person said it. This is partisan politics incarnate.

  21. #9196
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    I also don't see the political benefit for them.
    I'm not sure how much political benefit there would be, but I could see how they might (possibly mistakenly) think that formally trying and failing to replace Obamacare would look better than complaining about it for however many years and then never even putting forward a replacement plan.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  22. #9197
    Chapecó, que tristeza theDurk's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    I also don't see the political benefit for them.
    The Trump dog caught up to the car called Obamacare, realized it wasn't going to work out well for him, so he lets it go, comes running back and says I tried, but no cigar. Now he goes running after the rabbit named tax reform, that he can catch, and lets the car continue to its death spiral, which can't be blamed on the dog.

    Not saying I believe it, but I can't rule it out. It's the least damaging way to get out of the #2 impossible campaign promise. Expect the dog to do something similar with the Mexican wall pickup truck (impossible promise #1).
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  23. #9198
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    John chose Obama as his POTUS for 2017 if he could choose anyone. You make it seem like a stretch I'm seeing bias when he discusses two people saying the same thing.

    The fact two people said the exact same thing, and there was only outrage when one person said it. This is partisan politics incarnate.
    Those are two different issues. He chose Obama as his POTUS for 2017. He also discussed two people saying similar things. Those are independent issues. You can think two people said a wrong thing (it's important that I keep reiterating that he said Obama was wrong, which I feel you're trying to gloss over to make your point about partisanship) and still think one of them is an ideal candidate for President while the other one is an idiot based on the entirety of the rest of the things they've said and done.

    I think we're probably going to have to agree to disagree here.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  24. #9199
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Those are two different issues. He chose Obama as his POTUS for 2017. He also discussed two people saying similar things. Those are independent issues. You can think two people said a wrong thing (it's important that I keep reiterating that he said Obama was wrong, which I feel you're trying to gloss over to make your point about partisanship) and still think one of them is an ideal candidate for President while the other one is an idiot based on the entirety of the rest of the things they've said and done.

    I think we're probably going to have to agree to disagree here.
    I gloss over it as much as you gloss over the 'At least Obama.'

    Agree to disagree indeed.

  25. #9200

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Those are two different issues. He chose Obama as his POTUS for 2017. He also discussed two people saying similar things. Those are independent issues. You can think two people said a wrong thing (it's important that I keep reiterating that he said Obama was wrong, which I feel you're trying to gloss over to make your point about partisanship) and still think one of them is an ideal candidate for President while the other one is an idiot based on the entirety of the rest of the things they've said and done.

    I think we're probably going to have to agree to disagree here.
    I think this is important. I cared very little about what Carson said and would not have cared at all if I could have been sure of his intent. But I think he has been flippant about slavery in the past so he does not get benefit of doubt on the topic. I'm not completely sure he even fully understands it. I don't feel that same doubt with Obama.

    On the ACA:
    “You know Obamacare is really, I think, the worst thing that has happened in this nation since slavery. And it is in a way, it is slavery in a way, because it is making all of us subservient to the government, and it was never about health care. It was about control.”
    And comparing to abortion:
    “During slavery — and I know that’s one of those words you’re not supposed to say, but I’m saying it — during slavery, a lot of the slave owners thought that they had the right to do whatever they wanted to the slave. What if the abolitionists had said, ‘I don’t believe in slavery, I think it’s wrong, but you guys do whatever you want to do?”

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