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  1. #9151
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Like what Hillary was proposing?
    Hey at this point whatever makes it happen. I was glad when she came out and said it needed to be improved. I was worried if she won that she'd just double down on it as is. But I also took her statement with a grain of salt. She said that as a reaction to what President Trump was running on and made a top issue. Had no choice but to come up with her own view. He had to say "repeal and replace" to get the attention he did with it. It's what the right wanted to hear.

    But if that's what it takes, fine. I have no problem with it. Based on what's been spoken about it's what ultimately is going to happen. So let's just call it what it is.

  2. #9152

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Hey at this point whatever makes it happen. I was glad when she came out and said it needed to be improved. I was worried if she won that she'd just double down on it as is. But I also took her statement with a grain of salt. She said that as a reaction to what President Trump was running on and made a top issue. Had no choice but to come up with her own view. He had to say "repeal and replace" to get the attention he did with it. It's what the right wanted to hear.

    But if that's what it takes, fine. I have no problem with it. Based on what's been spoken about it's what ultimately is going to happen. So let's just call it what it is.
    I have no interest in rehashing Hillary vs Trump but that is just flat out wrong. She had statements on her healthcare plans going back to well before Trump was even considered a slightly serious candidate. For example:

    As your president, I want to build on the progress we’ve made. I’ll do more to bring down health care costs for families, ease burdens on small businesses, and make sure consumers have the choices they deserve. And frankly, it is finally time for us to deal with the skyrocketing out-of-pocket health costs, and particularly runaway prescription drug prices. (September 21, 2015)
    We obviously have no way of knowing how it would have played out but she was pushing for improving the ACA from the start of her campaign and laid out how she wanted to go about it on her website early on.

  3. #9153

    Re: President Donald Trump

    At least I finally learned the real Shakespeare quote. I'll take that as a win.
    It won't be long before we can all forget Cano and realize that Castro can be everything Robinson was for us. - Retired_Doc

  4. #9154
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    And how are you determining commitment to a political party? Please don't say voter registration as you will lose all credibility.
    No. I think they need to get rid of that entire system.

    I think it comes in different forms. Always voting along party lines no matter what. Defending a politican's actions or policies just because you voted for them. Defending a party's position just because you associate with them or dislike the other party's position more.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/what-does-...n-mean-3368071

  5. #9155
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    I have no interest in rehashing Hillary vs Trump but that is just flat out wrong. She had statements on her healthcare plans going back to well before Trump was even considered a slightly serious candidate. For example:



    We obviously have no way of knowing how it would have played out but she was pushing for improving the ACA from the start of her campaign and laid out how she wanted to go about it on her website early on.
    I was unaware. I'll concede my "reaction" statement there, but I still didn't trust what she would have actually done.

    I agree though, I'm getting sick of everyone in the administration still speaking as if they're campaigning against her, so I don't wanna go there either. It will probably please many here to hear me say that even hearing the president talking about winning is getting irritating.

    You brought her up damnit!!

  6. #9156
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    No. I think they need to get rid of that entire system.

    I think it comes in different forms. Always voting along party lines no matter what. Defending a politican's actions or policies just because you voted for them. Defending a party's position just because you associate with them or dislike the other party's position more.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/what-does-...n-mean-3368071

    I'll say again: I didn't vote for Obama in 2012 because I couldn't defend certain of his actions and policies. I usually vote Democratic, but I think about it every time. And I don't for the life of me see how your lack of party affiliation makes you any more objective. You just have different filters than some.


    And if I seem inconsistent from one situation to the next, don't be so sure you know the reason why. You don't know me well enough for long enough to assume that. And remember, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  7. #9157

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    No. I think they need to get rid of that entire system.

    I think it comes in different forms. Always voting along party lines no matter what. Defending a politican's actions or policies just because you voted for them. Defending a party's position just because you associate with them or dislike the other party's position more.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/what-does-...n-mean-3368071
    Based on that, your accusations of partisanship in this thread are completely unfounded. You should stop.

  8. #9158
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Based on that, your accusations of partisanship in this thread are completely unfounded. You should stop.

    Ooh, I'm 0 for 5 in that article.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  9. #9159
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I'll say again: I didn't vote for Obama in 2012 because I couldn't defend certain of his actions and policies. I usually vote Democratic, but I think about it every time. And I don't for the life of me see how your lack of party affiliation makes you any more objective. You just have different filters than some.

    And if I seem inconsistent from one situation to the next, don't be so sure you know the reason why. You don't know me well enough for long enough to assume that. And remember, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    You very recently stated if you could have anyone as president it would be Obama. I have a hard time reconciling that statement with what you are saying now.

    I think people often become emotionally attached to a candidate, then find themselves unable to reconcile their candidates actions with their own beliefs. As a result of that, they start defending a position they actually don't want to defend.

  10. #9160
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I'll say again: I didn't vote for Obama in 2012 because I couldn't defend certain of his actions and policies. I usually vote Democratic, but I think about it every time. And I don't for the life of me see how your lack of party affiliation makes you any more objective. You just have different filters than some.


    And if I seem inconsistent from one situation to the next, don't be so sure you know the reason why. You don't know me well enough for long enough to assume that. And remember, a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    youre a hobgoblin of a little mind.

  11. #9161
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Based on that, your accusations of partisanship in this thread are completely unfounded. You should stop.
    Nope. I see on the daily in this thread.

  12. #9162
    NYYF Legend


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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Nope. I see on the daily in this thread.
    Well when you stop being partisan you can then point others bias. You are right it does but you seem to omit the right's bias.
    SJW - bad attempt at insulting people that care about other's rights and not just their own.

  13. #9163
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    You very recently stated if you could have anyone as president it would be Obama. I have a hard time reconciling that statement with what you are saying now.

    I think people often become emotionally attached to a candidate, then find themselves unable to reconcile their candidates actions with their own beliefs. As a result of that, they start defending a position they actually don't want to defend.
    I would take him over anyone in the Republican or Democratic fields last year. I still didn't vote for him in 2012. i had no trouble reconciling that, but if you have a hard time, maybe I don't think what I think I think. I have to remember to check with you first.

  14. #9164
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Well when you stop being partisan you can then point others bias. You are right it does but you seem to omit the right's bias.
    Yelling into the echo chamber bores me. The right is just as bad though. For instance, Obamacare=Romneycare

  15. #9165

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Here's some more for your pile:

    The National Institute of Health classifies both alcohol and tobacco as narcotics (as are any of a number of other addictive drugs).

    Comparing said group against obesity is the only sensible approach if your goal is to highlight the impact any particular group has on healthcare, the economy, etc.

    Unless of course your intent is to include a breakdown of the types of food groups overeaten, or the means through which people become obese.
    This doesn't make sense to me, but whether or not smoking and drinking combined add more to the health care burden than obesity is irrelevant. It should probably all be addressed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Who decides? Statistics. You attempt to reduce the cost of the things that cost the most. This is simple stuff.
    It is simple at the level we're talking about, though implementation is more difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    Thank you for making my point. Everybody wants to pick on the other guy's sin. You start down that road, who decides how many sins get included? The whole idea of insurance is to be all-inclusive. Then you use other mechanisms to alter behaviors.

    This is why I have come over to single-payer. The private sector will engineer things to exclude the sick, or likely to be sick, and include only the healthy. This is good for the health insurance corporations and the healthy, but sucks for the sick, their loved ones, and society that will have to deal with them.
    First, we're not picking on sins unconnected to the cost of health care though, like "I don't like you doing this thing because morals, so let's tax it." Activities that have the strongest connection to higher costs for everyone in the pool should be deterred. Can be through other measures - not sure what they may be though.

    Second, we're not excluding anyone from health care coverage, especially if it's targeted at higher-income earners.

    Third, we draw lines like this in policy all the time. You take the biggest culprits and work your way down. When there are diminishing returns, you stop. We regulate emissions from your car but not your chainsaw because the former is useful but the latter is not.

    Fourth, I'd prefer single-payer as well, but this conversation started when someone mentioned that it "wasn't going to happen" and we needed to focus on the system we have. But even under single payer, actual costs will be different for everyone and you'll have to incentivize healthy living somehow or costs will still be too high.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I'm a little late on this one, but I don't see why one of the most damaging and destructive public health issues in the country shouldn't be discussed, in all its aspects, as part of health care
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    Because the bulk of that conversation centered on punishing fat people.
    Keep banging that drum.

    If you're suggesting it's punishing fat people for the sake of punishing fat people, you're wrong.

    If you have a problem with fat people paying more when they're causing higher costs for everyone else (including poor people), explain why that's problematic or offensive.

    Anyway, after speaking with a physician, it seems like BMI is used because 1. it's easier and cheaper (by far) than a BF% test and 2. it really does a good enough job, though some muscular people will be treated unfairly. I mentioned the article YT (I think) posted, and she said that being overweight obviously doesn't lead to problems immediately for all people, but costs will be higher down the road.


  16. #9166

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Nope. I see on the daily in this thread.
    The arguments on this thread tend to be pretty superficial for a number of reasons. And judging anyone based on such a small sample size is laughable. You should stop.

  17. #9167
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    The arguments on this thread tend to be pretty superficial for a number of reasons. And judging anyone based on such a small sample size is laughable. You should stop.

  18. #9168

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Based on that, your accusations of partisanship in this thread are completely unfounded. You should stop.
    I find it more striking that he tends to link to really simplistic "thinkpieces' very light on the "think" part. In fact, that whole page reads like headlines you see on the bottom of some websites featured under a banner of "Around The Web"

  19. #9169
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    I find it more striking that he tends to link to really simplistic "thinkpieces' very light on the "think" part. In fact, that whole page reads like headlines you see on the bottom of some websites featured under a banner of "Around The Web"
    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    Say something bad about it, and then maybe he'll comment on your comment.

    Maybe.

  20. #9170
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    It's close, anyway. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
    The word methinks isn't used enough.
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  21. #9171
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Not at all. I just find your Obama defending and inability to see past partisan lines flat out hilarious.

    "Yeah he said it and it was stupid, but at least Obama didn't say blah blah blah, and Carson did. So Carson is stupider and Obama is still the awesome."
    Which part was defending Obama? When he said Obama's cell phone argument was bullcrap or when he said his slaves/immigrants analogy was somewhere between vapid and offensive?
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  22. #9172
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Which part was defending Obama? When he said Obama's cell phone argument was bullcrap or when he said his slaves/immigrants analogy was somewhere between vapid and offensive?
    This part:
    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    At least Obama left it there, instead of going on to plug slaves into the "American dream" schema.

  23. #9173

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    Methinks the ladies doth protest too much.
    Shakespearean or not, using "ladies" as an insult is offensive.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Bambino was much better at refuting me when we agreed.
    Anyone else is just a poor substitute. He was the master.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    The word methinks isn't used enough.
    Methinks you are correct.

  24. #9174
    Not fooling anyone. Soriambi's Avatar
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    This part:
    Do you really think saying "at least Obama made one vapid/offensive comment rather than two" is much of a defense?
    -Kevin

    "My point is you can't compare things with statistics." Joe Morgan


    "I'd have won that trial. I've often said that." Stephen A. Smith on the OJ Simpson trial

    RIP, Pete.

  25. #9175
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    The word methinks isn't used enough.
    Sez you.

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