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  1. #35001
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    3. He didn't say that ending military exercises and bringing troops home was a bad thing in and of itself. The point is that that's a big bargaining chip, and Trump gave it away* with no corresponding concessions from the other side.
    This is based on what exactly? How do you know Kim would have signed the statement committing to denuclearisation otherwise? Or maybe it was a pre-condition to the meeting?

    At the very least it's a nice gesture. One that you can take back at any point. Not to mention, the right thing to do for our country.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    He didn't have to go to Singapore and meet with Kim to do that, he could just have announced it with a tweet and it would have accomplished the same thing.
    This is just lame. I suppose as a politician no one has to meet with anyone. They can all do it over emails and Skype.

    Sadly previous administrations thought isolation was the best diplomatic strategy. It's not.
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  2. #35002
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    This is based on what exactly? How do you know Kim would have signed the statement committing to denuclearisation otherwise? Or maybe it was a pre-condition to the meeting?

    At the very least it's a nice gesture. One that you can take back at any point. Not to mention, the right thing to do for our country.


    This is just lame. I suppose as a politician no one has to meet with anyone. They can all do it over emails and Skype.

    Sadly previous administrations thought isolation was the best diplomatic strategy. It's not.
    North Korea has made and broken repeated committments to denuclearization in the past. But never mind them, Iíll consider them null and void. However, they already made a new commitment in an agreement with South Korea in April. That ones still on the table, so this addd exactly nothing.

    When I said he could have suspended exercises without leaving Washington, it wasnít a comment on global communications, but on the completely unilateral nature of the move. It wasnít part of a deal, because North Korea made no concessions. It was just something Trump did, without requiring any negotiations, any dealing, or, in fact, the participation of anyone else. A simple tweet, with no input, response, or participation from North Korea would have had exactly the same effect.

  3. #35003
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    North Korea has made and broken repeated committments to denuclearization in the past. But never mind them, I’ll consider them null and void. However, they already made a new commitment in an agreement with South Korea in April. That ones still on the table, so this addd exactly nothing.

    When I said he could have suspended exercises without leaving Washington, it wasn’t a comment on global communications, but on the completely unilateral nature of the move. It wasn’t part of a deal, because North Korea made no concessions. It was just something Trump did, without requiring any negotiations, any dealing, or, in fact, the participation of anyone else. A simple tweet, with no input, response, or participation from North Korea would have had exactly the same effect.
    Don't agree. The meeting was great. Much more personal. Glad it happened.
    Calmer than you are

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  4. #35004
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Don't agree. The meeting was great. Much more personal. Glad it happened.
    Youíre still completely misconstruing my point.

    The meeting will be great if it leads to real accomplishments. So far, itís just a puff piece.

  5. #35005
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    You’re still completely misconstruing my point.

    The meeting will be great if it leads to real accomplishments. So far, it’s just a puff piece.
    Again, you just see it that way. It's not the reality of the situation.

    Maybe Kim wouldn't have released the 3 American prisoners earlier this year without the meeting or just agreed to repatriate remains of U.S. soldiers killed in the Korean War.
    Calmer than you are

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  6. #35006
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Again, you just see it that way. It's not the reality of the situation.

    Maybe Kim wouldn't have released the 3 American prisoners without the meeting earlier this year or just agreed to repatriate remains of U.S. soldiers killed in the Korean War.
    Oh, itís the reality of the situation, itís just not how you see it.

    See how easy that is? Especially when youíre using "maybes."

  7. #35007
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Oh, itís the reality of the situation, itís just not how you see it.

    See how easy that is? Especially when youíre using "maybes."
    OK. So Kim agreeing to repatriate remains today from the Korean War was coincidental or could have been accomplished via a tweet?
    Calmer than you are

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  8. #35008
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    OK. So Kim agreeing to repatriate remains today from the Korean War was coincidental or could have been accomplished via a tweet?
    Itís a nice gesture, it bodes well. That itself doesnít change any ground rules, and takes no steps towards a plan for peace and denuclearization.

    As Iíve said, I hope that this leads to genuinely substantial achievements. So far itís a piece of paper that says nothing. And yes, I know, "tell the families of the dead soldiers that itís not substantial." I wouldnít dream of taking this away from them, and Iím glad that happened. But those families arenít the goal of foreign policy, or the results Trump is hoping for. Itís also hardly an unprecedented gesture, and doesnít do much towards making this groundbreaking history.

  9. #35009
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    It’s a nice gesture, it bodes well. That itself doesn’t change any ground rules, and takes no steps towards a plan for peace and denuclearization.

    As I’ve said, I hope that this leads to genuinely substantial achievements. So far it’s a piece of paper that says nothing. And yes, I know, "tell the families of the dead soldiers that it’s not substantial." I wouldn’t dream of taking this away from them, and I’m glad that happened. But those families aren’t the goal of foreign policy, or the results Trump is hoping for. It’s also hardly an unprecedented gesture, and doesn’t do much towards making this groundbreaking history.
    Cool. Glad to see you moving the goalpost on the:

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    A simple tweet, with no input, response, or participation from North Korea would have had exactly the same effect.
    A tweet and a face-to-face meeting aren't the same things. They aren't to the families who will now receive the remains of their loved ones due to Trump's efforts. I mean, I can't really believe you are on this side of the argument.

    The thing is when you have so much hatred for someone it's difficult to see anything they do as positive. It's easier to to spin it as insignificant or negative. Rise above it.
    Calmer than you are

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  10. #35010
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Cool. Glad to see you moving the goalpost on the:



    A tweet and a face-to-face meeting aren't the same things. They aren't to the families who will now receive the remains of their loved ones due to Trump's efforts. I mean, I can't really believe you are on this side of the argument.

    The thing is when you have so much hatred for someone it's difficult to see anything they do as positive. It's easier to to spin it as insignificant or negative. Rise above it.
    I know a tweet and a face-to-face meeting arenít the same thing. Itís just that you have yet to understand the point I was making. (And speaking of moving the goalposts, what happened to unifying the peninsula?.)

    As for that last attempt at an insult, my posts on this have been fact-based, not emotional. Youíre welcome to your opinion, but not to present it as definitive reality based on some maybes.

    And with that, Iím done.

  11. #35011
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I know a tweet and a face-to-face meeting aren’t the same thing. It’s just that you have yet to understand the point I was making.
    What's the point you're making? You keep saying: "He didn't have to go to Singapore and meet with Kim" when there were multiple positive things that was a direct result of the meeting.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    (And speaking of moving the goalposts, what happened to unifying the peninsula?.)
    Obviously that was said tongue in cheek. Something as significant as that will take a decade, not in a meet and greet.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    As for that last attempt at an insult, my posts on this have been fact-based, not emotional. You’re welcome to your opinion, but not to present it as definitive reality based on some maybes.

    And with that, I’m done.
    Not really. You are creating your own 'facts' that fall in line with your emotions. The facts are that some positive things occurred due to this face-to-face. Again, I'm glad it happened.
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  12. #35012
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Youíre still completely misconstruing my point.

    The meeting will be great if it leads to real accomplishments. So far, itís just a puff piece.
    This. To date we are no further along than we were at three stages over the last three administrations when NK made several pledges and then reneged shortly thereafter. Wonít mean a thing until binding terms are put in place AND verification made.

  13. #35013

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Not really. You are creating your own 'facts' that fall in line with your emotions. The facts are that some positive things occurred due to this face-to-face. Again, I'm glad it happened.
    That is an opinion, not a fact. I don't necessarily disagree but it's still just an opinion.
    The feminist agenda ... encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson 1992

  14. #35014

    Re: President Donald Trump

    "Just landed - a long trip, but everybody can now feel much safer than the day I took office," Trump tweeted as he arrived back in Washington. "There is no longer a Nuclear Threat from North Korea."
    And that's all Trump wanted from the meeting. Photo op followed by a declaration that will now be carried by supporters and his mouthpieces in the media.

  15. #35015
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bernard View Post
    And that's all Trump wanted from the meeting. Photo op followed by a declaration that will now be carried by supporters and his mouthpieces in the media.
    And letís not mention the fact NK still has the nukes and nothing has been signed requiring them to get rid of them.

  16. #35016

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    And letís not mention the fact NK still has the nukes and nothing has been signed requiring them to get rid of them.
    I think it's just your hatred of Trump that's clouding you from seeing that NK is now Officially no longer a threat. Kim's a good guy. Pulled himself up by his bootstraps. Didn't need an affirmative action program to get where he is.

  17. #35017
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bernard View Post
    I think it's just your hatred of Trump that's clouding you from seeing that NK is now Officially no longer a threat. Kim's a good guy. Pulled himself up by his bootstraps. Didn't need an affirmative action program to get where he is.
    Lol. Most likely. Probably should just take Trumpís word

  18. #35018
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint Bernard View Post
    I think it's just your hatred of Trump that's clouding you from seeing that NK is now Officially no longer a threat. Kim's a good guy. Pulled himself up by his bootstraps. Didn't need an affirmative action program to get where he is.


    OK,


    you can take your tongue out of your cheek now


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  19. #35019
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Congratulations Mr. President.

    Ever wonder what the consequences of legitimizing a nuclear-armed madman who has used chemical weapons on his own family, starved his people, and engaged in systematic mass murder to retain power might be? Congratulations! You’re about to find out. Us too.
    Hats off to you, Mr. President. You’ve cut the sinews of a strategic alliance with Japan and South Korea that has contained North Korea, and kept a brake on Chinese power in the Western Pacific.

    Thank you, Mr. President, for reminding us that Kim Jong Un is talented. I couldn’t agree more. He’s talented at killing his uncles, half-brothers, cousins, and countrymen with poison, anti-aircraft guns, chemical weapons, and flamethrowers. He’s talented at starving his people, systematically reducing their life expectancy, health, and even height because of the chronic malnutrition his evil policies entail. He’s talented like his father and grandfather before him at rooking Western leaders. They’re talented at proposing deals they never had the slightest intention of keeping.

    Heckuva job, Mr. President. No matter what a weapons-grade dumpster fire this week created, you’re safe from congressional oversight, but you know that by now. Nothing you do matters to this Congress. No matter what damage you inflict on our economy, our alliances, trade, our stature in the world, our role as an exemplar of democratic values, our ability to serve as an honest broker in the international community, and our security, Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell will lay supine before you. (Supine is that position you usually have to pay for, hoss.)

    Their evident, constant terror at running afoul of your volcanic temper, lunatic followers, and media cheer squad mutes their tongues and stays their hands even when they should know better. They should fear a world where America is isolated, mistrusted, and weaker economically, morally, and politically. They should worry the acid drip of your rhetorical and moral poison reduces American power and influence.

    Instead, they fear their own president, hiding behind furrowed brows and elliptical, mealymouthed expressions of grave concern.

    So congratulations, Mr. President. You spent the week deliberately wrecking American alliances and leadership, allied yourself with one of the most egregious enemies of freedom in the world, and abandoned the shared values of our friends like Canada, France, the United Kingdom, Japan, and Germany.

    You must be so proud.
    This is not America...No! https://youtu.be/neLXqbR_r0E

  20. #35020
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    That is an opinion, not a fact. I don't necessarily disagree but it's still just an opinion.
    How? It was part of his meeting with Kim.

    "I must have had just countless calls and letters and tweets, anything you can do — they want the remains of their sons back," he said. "They want the remains of their fathers, and mothers, and all of the people that got caught into that really brutal war, which took place, to a large extent, in North Korea. And I asked for it today, and we got it."

    President Trump said that he had asked for the concession at the last minute but Kim Jong Un agreed to start the process immediately, "He agreed to that so quickly and so nice — it was really a very nice thing, and he understands it. He understands it."
    https://www.npr.org/2018/06/12/61920...rom-korean-war

    ...unless you believe that 'bringing home Korean War remains is a positive' is an opinion in itself?
    Calmer than you are

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  21. #35021

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    How? It was part of his meeting with Kim.


    https://www.npr.org/2018/06/12/61920...rom-korean-war

    ...unless you believe that 'bringing home Korean War remains is a positive' is an opinion in itself?
    I think it's a positive when it happens without making any other concessions. Right now it's just words and those words that can be heartbreaking if it does not come to fruition.
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  22. #35022
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    https://www.vox.com/2018/6/13/174502...n-primary-lose

    The most endangered Republicans in 2018 are Trump’s harshest critics

    There was a moment back in the summer of 2016 when it seemed reasonable to think that Donald Trump was doomed after an Access Hollywood tape surfaced featuring him claiming he liked to grab women “by the pussy.”

    It wasn’t exactly controversial for Republican women to be upset: Rep. Barbara Comstock said the remarks were “vile,” and Rep. Martha Roby said Trump’s behavior made him “unacceptable as a candidate for president” and vowed not to vote for him.

    But fast-forward to 2018 and it’s not Trump who is paying the price for his comments. It’s the women who spoke up. Comstock faced a serious primary on Tuesday from Shak Hill, who tried to paint her as a Never-Trumper, and won with a less-than-inspiring 60 percent of the vote. Two weeks ago, Roby failed to secure enough votes to win renomination outright in Alabama and will battle the Trump-aligned Bobby Bright in a July runoff election. Both Congress members voted with Trump’s agenda 97 percent of the time.
    So a candidate is on tape bragging about sexual assault and the solution that the base has come up with is they need to get rid of the women who were appalled by that. Good job by you GOP. The entire party has been consumed by the cancer that is Donald Trump. His views and policies, which a short 2 1/2 years ago were called by a majority of Republicans as unelectable are now the official party platform. Way to go conservatives, you now stand for and with a sexual predator bigot.

    Even those that were loudly "never Trump" have squirmed their way back because they need the r̶a̶c̶i̶s̶t̶, ahem, economic anxious voter who show up to the primaries.

    Parties always go through ideological realignments and come up with new litmus tests when new party leaders take over — for example, defending Obamacare became key to Democrats’ survival during the previous presidency. But these days, the only test for Republicans that seems to matter is personal loyalty to Trump.

    The message from Republican primary voters is clear: If you’re not on board with Trump, we don’t want you.
    One of the most amazing transformations to watch has been former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney. He’s made an extreme about-face after calling Trump “a con man, a fake,” in a high-profile speech during the 2016 election.

    Now that he’s running for Senate in Utah, he’s singing a very different tune. “He has departed in some cases from the truth and has attacked in a way that I think is not entirely appropriate,” Romney said in a recent interview, leveling mild criticisms at Trump. “I think that his policies have been, by and large, a good deal better than I might have expected.”

    As my colleague Tara Golshan observed, “Romney’s recent remarks are surprisingly forgiving toward Trump’s repeated lies, offensive and inflammatory comments, and often rash policymaking tactics, given his position throughout the 2016 election cycle.”

  23. #35023
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    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    I think it's a positive when it happens without making any other concessions. Right now it's just words and those words that can be heartbreaking if it does not come to fruition.
    OK, but the words are positive?
    Calmer than you are

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  24. #35024

    Re: President Donald Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    OK, but the words are positive?
    Positive words. That is not the same as positive things imo. "I'm will win the lottery" = positive words. Have positive things occurred? I don't think so. But this is a stupid exercise in word meaning and does nothing to enhance the conversation so we can just disagree on the meaning of "positive things occurred". Moving on.
    The feminist agenda ... encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians. ~Pat Robertson 1992

  25. #35025

    Re: President Donald Trump

    1. TPP was the worst deal ever negotiated for the U.S. economy . . . despite the fact that it addressed Trumpís complaints about the trade deficit with Canada. And it guaranteed that the U.S. would be a player in Asian international relations.

    2. The Iran nuclear agreement is the worst treaty ever for the U.S. despite the fact that it includes verification, transparency, and inspections.

    3. The North Korea deal is a great step forward despite the fact that we donít even know what was agreed to, havenít seen anything on paper, and the president and VP canít agree on what was agreed to.

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