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Thread: Education

  1. #401
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey at the Bat View Post
    What kids are you talking about who graduate but can't read? In CA, students still need 220 credits to graduate from high school (a passed class = 5 credits). And those 220 credits have to be in specific subjects... 40 credits in English, 30 credits in math, 10 in earth science, 10 in biological sciences, with at least one class in a lab science, 10 for a foreign language, etc. If these kids can't read or don't do their work, they don't get a passing grade, and they don't graduate. So as someone who has worked at the high school level at different districts for the past 18 years, I am wondering exactly what students you are talking about that we are graduating that can't read. Social promotion definitely occurs at the elementary level, for all the reasons we've discussed over and over again. But it doesn't really happen at the high school level. If anything, sadly, these kids end up dropping out.
    this is a damn good question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey at the Bat View Post
    The psychs at our district have done a good job of explaining why retention is usually a bad idea, so it doesn't happen very much anymore. Our biggest issue now is schools wanting us to test kinders for SpEd. The conversation usually goes like this:

    Teacher: "Test Johnny, He can't do X"
    Psych: "That's because he's only five. Give him some time, monitor his progress, and if he continues to fall behind, we'll revisit this."
    teacher: "But he can't keep up with the rest of the class!"
    Psych: "I know, it's because he's five and many of your students are already six."
    Teacher: "But we've raised the expectations of kinders in the last few years, and now he's really behind."
    Psych: "You can raise the expectations all you want, but he's still five. Raising expectations above someone's developmental level doesn't mean they have a disability. It means they're five. Break it down to his level. If he still continues to fall behind, we can talk about SpEd later."

    I often don't hear about those kinder students again after the first several months of each school year.
    i've watched this conversation take place three times with year between a colleague and someone on the CST. it usually comes after the kid doesn't do well on some academic tests. and i'm teaching 10/11 year olds.

    when it was suggested to me that one of my students should get checked for an issue, i replied that i'd spend more time teaching that weakness to him for a month or so before taking that step.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
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  2. #402
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    It's not either/or. Repeating the same lesson plan that failed and giving the kid material that's too advanced are not the only alternatives. But to make it work better, you still have to find out why the kid is failing.

    If you're not convinced that finding out why the kid failed will make all the difference, then I don't know what to tell you except that you're wrong. Doing that was my whole job for a while, and has always been a part of my job. There are lots of reasons that kids fail, and in the early grades, it's almost never because they're not trying.

    I think there is a case to be made for leaving a kid back in kindergarten or first grade to help him build a foundation if he started school without one. After that, it's virtually never helpful to merely leave a kid back. Casey, Alex - back me up on this one.
    i don't know of another modern country that holds kids back. in europe, it was pretty much understood to be deeply unhelpful and often outright harmful before i was born.

    the chances of it correcting the issue a student has is next to non-existent, while the chance of that kid "checking out" of education is considerably higher.

    to be perfectly honest, it's an outed approach.

    edit: part of why it's still a response to a child struggling in the US is the way teaching and learning occurs here. it's quite different to how we do it back home.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Dammit, I have to remember to proofread posts.
    don't fret it.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
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  3. #403
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    "Leave the little bastid back" sounds like punishment. "Send the little bastid to the appropriate level given his skills" is a lot more reasonable.

    But, if you're content with the current system, where we move kids along be cause they're a year older, until it's time to graduate them, whether they can read or not, well, enjoy that. I find the current system to be horrifying, and unacceptable.
    please don't think i'm being condescending, but i think this shows how little you understand of modern teaching and learning. in some ways the US current system is not good enough but your backwards looking (literally, not figuratively) approach would make it worse. the best education systems left this concept on the scrap heap sometime ago. and by "sometime", i mean decades.

    at the very least, any "retention" will be seen as punishment. simply putting kids in a class with some who are a year younger will stop all willingness to learn.

    as a teacher, i can vary the level of a concept i am teaching within one lesson. for instance, i can teach decimals to twenty kids so that everyone of them learns at their appropriate level. they will all move at an appropriate pace for their current & potential ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    And perhaps, just perhaps, a High School diploma would be enough for many of our citizens, as it was a generation ago. If only that diploma came with a High School education, like it used to.
    i will note, the concept of "graduating" is the issue here. in the UK, our kids don't "graduate". they simply learn and progress. there is too much tied into the concept of term "graduating".

    when you leave a UK high school, you leave with "grades" in individual subjects, not an overall diploma. further complicating that is the fact US education seemingly puts more focus on knowledge when much of the rest of the world focuses on skills and understanding.

    for example, i genuinely don't care if my 5th grades in the UK left not knowing any history facts they'd come across during our lessons. i did care that they knew how to research a historical topic, judge sources and gather/collate information. in the US, the social studies teacher wants them to memorise dates, names, places.

    the notion that a high school education should be "enough" is deeply problematic. as has been pointed out, modern life and modern jobs are fundamentally different to their predecessors.

    maynerd, when you left high school, around 75% of the jobs available existed when you entered school at aged 5.

    only 15% of the jobs my current 5th graders will do in their twenties currently exist.

    beyond that, we have more to teach but no more time to teach it in. my father never had a single lesson on the muslim faith when he was in school. the only religious education he had was christianity. now, children in the UK learn about half a dozen faiths. my father did not learn about computers in school but now, kids in the US and UK has multiple computers lessons per week.

    the day did not get any longer, but what had to fit into it has considerably increased.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Actually, I'd prefer to eliminate numeric grade years. No 1st, 2nd, 3rd. Instead, I'd like to see groupings based on proficiency, rather than age. If a kid is ready for the next level, send him there. Don't wait for the end of the school year. If a kid isn't ready, don't send him.
    i left section to last because if done correctly, there is validity in this.

    but, again, it underlines an issue with the concept of being "ready". in modern education, just because i child moves to the next grade, it does not means he or she is being taught something they are not ready for.

    differentiation is amongst the most important teaching practices.

    - - -

    i'm a little all over the place here - i'm tired and it's been a very long week - so i apologies if i haven't put all of these points down in the most accessible manner.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  4. #404

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    this is a damn good question.



    i've watched this conversation take place three times with year between a colleague and someone on the CST. it usually comes after the kid doesn't do well on some academic tests. and i'm teaching 10/11 year olds.

    when it was suggested to me that one of my students should get checked for an issue, i replied that i'd spend more time teaching that weakness to him for a month or so before taking that step.
    It can be incredibly frustrating at times. Sometimes, when I’m in the situation you’re describing, I have to resort to asking the teacher what they are going to do if Johnny doesn’t qualify. If they have an even decent plan of intervention, I suggest that they do that now, and if it’s unsuccessful, then we can come back and look at other interventions.

  5. #405
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey at the Bat View Post
    It can be incredibly frustrating at times. Sometimes, when I’m in the situation you’re describing, I have to resort to asking the teacher what they are going to do if Johnny doesn’t qualify. If they have an even decent plan of intervention, I suggest that they do that now, and if it’s unsuccessful, then we can come back and look at other interventions.
    the notion of "someone else will fix this problem in front of me" exists in all walks of life including education.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  6. #406

    Re: Education

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.8f79fbc8827c


    Civil rights groups slammed Education Secretary Betsy DeVos for saying Tuesday that schools can decide whether to report undocumented students to immigration enforcement officials, saying her statements conflict with the law and could raise fears among immigrant students.

    DeVos’s answers came during testimony before the House Committee on Education and the Workforce. Rep. Adriano Espaillat (D-N.Y.), an immigrant from the Dominican Republic who was at one time undocumented, pressed the secretary for her positions on immigration enforcement.

    “Inside the school,” Espaillat asked, “if a principal or a teacher finds out that a certain child is undocumented, or his or her family members are undocumented, do you feel that the principal or teacher is responsible to call [Immigration and Customs Enforcement] and to have that family reported?”

    “Sir, I think that’s a school decision,” DeVos responded. “That’s a local community decision. And again, I refer to the fact that we have laws and we also are compassionate, and I urge this body to do its job and address or clarify where there is confusion around this.”

    Not so, say civil rights groups. The Supreme Court made clear in Plyler v. Doe that public schools have a constitutional obligation to provide schooling for children, regardless of immigration status. That means schools also cannot enforce measures that would deter undocumented children from registering. They cannot ask about immigration status. And according to the American Civil Liberties Union, they cannot report students or their families to Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

    “Let’s be clear: Any school that reports a child to ICE would violate the Constitution. The Supreme Court has made clear that every child in America has a right to a basic education, regardless of immigration status,” Lorella Praeli, the ACLU’s director of immigration policy and campaigns, said in a statement. “Secretary DeVos is once again wrong.”
    “Stay angry, little Meg,” Mrs Whatsit whispered. “You will need all your anger now.”

  7. #407
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Like she knew that case was on the books.

  8. #408
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    Re: Education

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/good-...est/ar-AAAm9wD


    We need more teachers like this. And she deserves a raise.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  9. #409
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/good-...est/ar-AAAm9wD


    We need more teachers like this. And she deserves a raise.
    She was promoted to Principal. I imagine she got one.

    Side note....the best teacher I ever had, at any level, was Tony Basto, a Middle School math teacher. He brought a passion and an understanding to the subject matter, knew who his students were, and made learning fun. Reading about Natarajan made me think about him. Like her, he got promoted (to Assistant Principal). And, like her, he continued to teach an advanced Math class, because losing his teaching presence to an administrative function would have been a loss to the students. He would eventually get promoted again, and became an Elementary School Principal.

    We really ought to find a way to "promote" and "reward" certain teachers, but leave them full time in the classroom. Teachers like these should never be moved into an office. But to advance, and to get that higher paycheck, they need to move into the Principal's office. What a waste. It's like 'rewarding' your MVP outfielder by taking him out of the lineup and letting him coach first base.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  10. #410

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    She was promoted to Principal. I imagine she got one.

    Side note....the best teacher I ever had, at any level, was Tony Basto, a Middle School math teacher. He brought a passion and an understanding to the subject matter, knew who his students were, and made learning fun. Reading about Natarajan made me think about him. Like her, he got promoted (to Assistant Principal). And, like her, he continued to teach an advanced Math class, because losing his teaching presence to an administrative function would have been a loss to the students. He would eventually get promoted again, and became an Elementary School Principal.

    We really ought to find a way to "promote" and "reward" certain teachers, but leave them full time in the classroom. Teachers like these should never be moved into an office. But to advance, and to get that higher paycheck, they need to move into the Principal's office. What a waste. It's like 'rewarding' your MVP outfielder by taking him out of the lineup and letting him coach first base.

    I read your first sentence and was getting ready to yell at you. Then I read the rest. Lol. Agree 100%. Let teachers teach and make it worth their while when they are good at it.
    “Stay angry, little Meg,” Mrs Whatsit whispered. “You will need all your anger now.”

  11. #411
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    I read your first sentence and was getting ready to yell at you.
    Wouldn't have been the first time.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  12. #412

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    She was promoted to Principal. I imagine she got one.

    Side note....the best teacher I ever had, at any level, was Tony Basto, a Middle School math teacher. He brought a passion and an understanding to the subject matter, knew who his students were, and made learning fun. Reading about Natarajan made me think about him. Like her, he got promoted (to Assistant Principal). And, like her, he continued to teach an advanced Math class, because losing his teaching presence to an administrative function would have been a loss to the students. He would eventually get promoted again, and became an Elementary School Principal.

    We really ought to find a way to "promote" and "reward" certain teachers, but leave them full time in the classroom. Teachers like these should never be moved into an office. But to advance, and to get that higher paycheck, they need to move into the Principal's office. What a waste. It's like 'rewarding' your MVP outfielder by taking him out of the lineup and letting him coach first base.
    Is this possible with teachers unions? Based on what I know, probably not
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  13. #413
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by fightingirish595 View Post
    Is this possible with teachers unions? Based on what I know, probably not
    Of course it's possible to give people more money. You might have to negotiate it into a contract, but unions don't oppose giving people more money.

    The problem comes when you want to start cutting the pay of teachers you don't like.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  14. #414

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Of course it's possible to give people more money. You might have to negotiate it into a contract, but unions don't oppose giving people more money.

    The problem comes when you want to start cutting the pay of teachers you don't like.

    Yeah. But I don't think it would be easy either. Merit seems hard to qualify when it comes to teaching. What kind of standard do you use?
    “Stay angry, little Meg,” Mrs Whatsit whispered. “You will need all your anger now.”

  15. #415
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Yeah. But I don't think it would be easy either. Merit seems hard to qualify when it comes to teaching. What kind of standard do you use?
    Don't know, but it's definitely much easier to get a union to agree to paying bonuses as long as no one else is losing money.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  16. #416

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Of course it's possible to give people more money. You might have to negotiate it into a contract, but unions don't oppose giving people more money.

    The problem comes when you want to start cutting the pay of teachers you don't like.
    My mom works in the inner city, hired during a pay freeze. She could move to another district and probably make anywhere between 10,000-20,000 more than she is now. Problem is, a school isn’t going to hire her when they can hire 2 people for the same price. Really my mom is paid way less than what she is worth

    As for the teacher unions, I think they protect too many bad teachers while good ones for some reason get no reward
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  17. #417
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by fightingirish595 View Post
    My mom works in the inner city, hired during a pay freeze. She could move to another district and probably make anywhere between 10,000-20,000 more than she is now. Problem is, a school isn’t going to hire her when they can hire 2 people for the same price. Really my mom is paid way less than what she is worth

    As for the teacher unions, I think they protect too many bad teachers while good ones for some reason get no reward
    The problem there isn't that the union is protecting bad teachers, it's that school districts aren't willing to pay for good ones. They want their teachers cheap, not good. That's exactly why teachers need union protection - so districts can't find frivolous reasons to get rid of teachers just because they can hire cheaper ones.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  18. #418
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    The problem there isn't that the union is protecting bad teachers, it's that school districts aren't willing to pay for good ones.
    One of these being a problem doesn't obviate the other. I think both are true. And both are definitely problems.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  19. #419

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    The problem there isn't that the union is protecting bad teachers, it's that school districts aren't willing to pay for good ones. They want their teachers cheap, not good. That's exactly why teachers need union protection - so districts can't find frivolous reasons to get rid of teachers just because they can hire cheaper ones.
    Yes. That’s why I separated them. We’re definitely in agreement with the school districts not willing to pay good ones. Teacher unions definitely do a good job of protecting, but when it comes to fair pay... I think they are severely lacking.

    I’m still in school, so I still live at home. And it absolutely baffles me that my mother had to sell our home when the child support stopped at 18. But I guess that’s the way the world is now, it’s hard without two legitimate incomes
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  20. #420
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by fightingirish595 View Post
    Yes. That’s why I separated them. We’re definitely in agreement with the school districts not willing to pay good ones. Teacher unions definitely do a good job of protecting, but when it comes to fair pay... I think they are severely lacking.

    I’m still in school, so I still live at home. And it absolutely baffles me that my mother had to sell our home when the child support stopped at 18. But I guess that’s the way the world is now, it’s hard without two legitimate incomes
    Teachers are grotesquely underpaid. We as a society don't value good teachers enough.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  21. #421
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    One of these being a problem doesn't obviate the other. I think both are true. And both are definitely problems.
    I think "protecting bad teachers" is a grossly overrated problem. You're assuming that, at the salaries being paid to teachers, there is a backlog of terrific teachers waiting to be hired. If there are mediocre teachers who keep their jobs, it's because there aren't particularly good alternatives.

    Paging alex...paging Casey...
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  22. #422

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Teachers are grotesquely underpaid. We as a society don't value good teachers enough.
    Exactly right

    There’s people out there that think being a teacher is a grand ole time. You get summers off, your day ends around 230, maybe in some places somewhat earlier or later. And sure maybe that’s true if you do the bare minimum and aren’t a very good teacher... bottom line is the people who think like that couldn’t devise a lesson plan if it smacked them in the face
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  23. #423

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I think "protecting bad teachers" is a grossly overrated problem. You're assuming that, at the salaries being paid to teachers, there is a backlog of terrific teachers waiting to be hired. If there are mediocre teachers who keep their jobs, it's because there aren't particularly good alternatives.

    Paging alex...paging Casey...
    This is actually a valid point. You may have actually swayed me.

    My mother’s school hired people from Spain last year for dual language positions, problem is they had no idea what they were doing and they didn’t know English...keep in mind it’s a dual language position. I’ve got a funny story about new haven public schools in CT, I’ll get to that later. Sometimes schools actually have a hard time filling positions.

    Now teachers unions definitely do protect bad teachers, but how many bad teachers are actually out there???
    Baseball games are not won with a formula. If you can hit, they will find a place for you

  24. #424
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fightingirish595 View Post
    This is actually a valid point. You may have actually swayed me.

    My mother’s school hired people from Spain last year for dual language positions, problem is they had no idea what they were doing and they didn’t know English...keep in mind it’s a dual language position. I’ve got a funny story about new haven public schools in CT, I’ll get to that later. Sometimes schools actually have a hard time filling positions.

    Now teachers unions definitely do protect bad teachers, but how many bad teachers are actually out there???
    And how many great ones are waiting to replace them?

    Respect to your mom, by the way. Teaching in inner-city schools is a tremendously difficult, tremendously important job. I could not do it.

  25. #425
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    Re: Education

    Wow Unions protect their members. Who new there could be benefits to being in a union.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

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