Education

[Maynerd]

Once upon a time, we had a thread on Education. I can't seem to find it...it was likely in the old Political Soapbox. Regardless, increasingly, we've seen discussion of education show up in the Election thread. Probably not the right venue. So, allow me to create a space to discuss our educational system.


Is what we're doing in Public Education the right route? Should we have educational standards? Is it OK to leave some children behind? What should we be doing, as a society, to make a college education more affordable? Why can't Little Johnny read? Stuff like that.


Go.

[ClownPickle]

We should create a subsection on this forum to put all these political threads. A soapbox of sorts.

[Maynerd]

We should create a subsection on this forum to put all these political threads. A soapbox of sorts.

That's just crazy talk.

[Yankee Tripper]

On
Is what we're doing in Public Education the right route?

Mostly yes

Should we have educational standards?

yes

Is it OK to leave some children behind?

maybe

What should we be doing, as a society, to make a college education more affordable?

Subsidize more. Incentivize more. ??? Probably a lot

Why can't Little Johnny read?

Because Johhny is a little ####.

Anyway, good idea for a thread Maynerd I approve.

[fredgmuggs]

There actually has been a recent major court decision in CT where a judge found that resources (money) have been allocated inequitably between rich white suburbs and minority cities which the state is appealing.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...g-Decision.pdf

http://ctmirror.org/2016/12/30/state...hings-to-know/

[Jersey Yankee]

The first thing kids need to learn is to respect one another once in awhile. All this cyberbullying, telling one another to go jump off a cliff, people fighting and arguing over who dates who, and cybershaming each other is ridiculous.

As far as education, how about kids learning to be productive members of society who go out to work every day and support themselves.

For FORMAL education, some states should just pay those having trouble keeping jobs to get marketable skills. So many able-bodied people sitting around collecting welfare who could be driving a forklift in a warehouse, delivering furniture, etc.

All these people who could be highly productive taxpayers aren't working due to not having marketable skills. I find that very unfortunate.

[Jersey Yankee]

There actually has been a recent major court decision in CT where a judge found that resources (money) have been allocated inequitably between rich white suburbs and minority cities.

I could've told you that 40 years ago. The haves get the most, and the have nots get the least.

Same with jobs, housing, quality of healthy supermarkets carrying fresh goods, etc.

[Yankee Tripper]

There actually has been a recent major court decision in CT where a judge found that resources (money) have been allocated inequitably between rich white suburbs and minority cities which the state is appealing.

https://assets.documentcloud.org/doc...g-Decision.pdf

http://ctmirror.org/2016/12/30/state...hings-to-know/

I'm in shock, shock I say!

[BRenninger]

Good job Maynerd!

All my kids go to private schools. Wife and I thought long and hard to come to our conclusion.
The public schools in our area just can't provide what we deem important. Through no fault of their own the schools themselves are a mess. High turnover of teachers, cuts in the arts and sports programs. The funding just isn't there. Buildings are pitiful at best.
I'm of the mindset that if you spend 8 hrs. a day with my kid you get paid at the top of the scale as well with cadillac benefits. Educators make a career is the result.
So far so good. The tuitions trains us for the college tuitions.

[ajra21]

theres plenty of good stuff. there's also plenty of stupid stuff.

the single biggest difference between public and private schools is class size. people like to talk around this but in the end, it makes a significant difference discussing any other area of that debate is basically pointless.

[Trish]

We should create a subsection on this forum to put all these political threads. A soapbox of sorts.

This post need a "like" button.

[YankeePride1967]

This post need a "like" button.

And the too easily offended having the willpower not to go in.

[ajra21]

this comes over from the politics thread:

The minimum GPA should be passing. The kid that works his rear off to maintain a 1.85 GPA should not be penalized for not learning as easily as someone else.

this is the difference between what is called (in the UK) "value added education" and "final score".

in the UK, when a child enters a public school at aged 4, they undertake the "base line" assessment. it shows what the child can do at that point in time. it assesses everything from tying a pair of laces to mental arithmetic to very basic scientific understanding. the assessment is done one-to-one, taking a couple of hours. the assessment will be done twice by two different teachers who don't reveal the results until both are complete. if one "result" is very different from the other, then a third teacher is brought in to do a third assessment.

children have little idea they are being assessed. most find it lots of fun because of how it is undertaken.

the aim to to provide educators with an expected expected education level (starting at 1 and progressing continually upwards into until the end of high school.

the "base line" assessment projects a level at aged 7. working on a sample size of 100 children, somewhere between 75-80 should achieve level level 2 (in math, english & science by the age of 7. of the 25 that don't, half will achieve level 3 and half will achieve less than level 2.

at aged 7, another projection will be made for age 11. again, in a sample size of 100 children at age 11, around 75-80 will attain a level 4. the remaining children will either achieve level 3 or level 5*.

this graphic shows how this works far better than i can explain.



when the child reaches the end of a stage (ages 7 and 11), teachers can reflect back on that initial base line assessment to judge. if the child was projected to be a 2C but achieved a 2A, "value added" education has occurred. if a child doesn't achieve their projected level, questions are raised, first by Senior Teachers and then by the local education authority. explanations & reasons must be given (poor attendance, changes of schools, a new medical or educational diagnosis, e.g. dyslexia). i've gone through this process. it isn't fun but it is necessary.

prior to leaving the UK, my school was inspected. the school did not achieve the national projections for level attainment. IIRC, we were around 7% below. however, the school passed the inspection because it was significantly above the national projections in terms of "value added" education - approximately 20% above i believe.

*in ten years, of teaching i had two pupils who were "broke" the levels for age 11. one in a negative way, one in a positive way. one boy had severe educational needs. when he left my class at aged 11, he had just scraped a level 1, meaning most children six years younger than him were more academically capable. one girl achieved a level 6A by age 11. she was insanely intelligent. i couldn't teach fast enough for her to learn. she completed her a-levels three years at aged 15 compared to her peers who complete them at age 18.

[KLJ]

And the too easily offended having the willpower not to go in.

that's not how it worked last time. a certain group of posters whined and complained endlessly until the mods had enough and shut it down. i can see at least 3 to 4 problems (posters) that would cry to the mods to no end.

[Jersey Yankee]

theres plenty of good stuff. there's also plenty of stupid stuff.

the single biggest difference between public and private schools is class size. people like to talk around this but in the end, it makes a significant difference discussing any other area of that debate is basically pointless.

Class size isn't the only thing. When kids get a free education, it's like a free party. Nobody respects it, start acting up. When you charge $5 for the exact same party, everyone suddenly learns to behave themselves.

When parents remind the kids that they are spending $700-1,000/month for a high school preperatory education, the kids damned well bettet learn. Not so in public schools, where kids just pass through without learning as much.

As far as class size, it's wonderful, point taken. However, if the teacher isn't inspiring anybody, it could be 1:1 or 1:40. An uninspired lecture isn't helping anyone.

[ajra21]

Class size isn't the only thing. When kids get a free education, it's like a free party. Nobody respects it, start acting up. When you charge $5 for the exact same party, everyone suddenly learns to behave themselves.

When parents remind the kids that they are spending $700-1,000/month for a high school preperatory education, the kids damned well bettet learn. Not so in public schools, where kids just pass through without learning as much.

sorry brad, but that is just plain wrong. not criticising you personally brad - just want to make sure everyone knows how inaccurate that statement is.

having taught in both public & private schools, i can attest to there being no connection between "respect" and having paid for education. saw just as much respect/disrespect from children in the private school as i have in the "free" schools. in some ways it was worse. some pupils from money treat teachers like they were nothing more than their paid baby sitter.

as for parents reminding their kids about how much their education costs, do you really thing a bunch of 13yo care? trust me, they don't. maybe a small percentage will but most have little to no comprehension of what it means to pay $1000 a month for them to attend school.

equally, i've seen many pupils love their "free" education simply because it's the one place they can rely on in life to be there for them. it's a sanctuary from a chaotic home-life.

maybe you've seen an example of "free" schools leading to a "party" but i'm betting it's a small and unreliable sample size.

As far as class size, it's wonderful, point taken. However, if the teacher isn't inspiring anybody, it could be 1:1 or 1:40. An uninspired lecture isn't helping anyone.

inspiration is frequently overrated when it comes to teaching. it isn't like the movies. teachers don't go in there with some immensely over-whelming charisma/world message and change broken children into stars.

class size makes a staggering difference simply because of face-to-face time. in a class of 30, half the class won't get the more than a minute with the teacher (individually) per lesson. in a class of 15, everyone will get substantially more. that face-to-face time does numerous things:
- maintains focus on learning
- reduces opportunity for poor behaviour
- enhances relationship between pupil & teacher increasing trust.
- reduces issues when teacher is with another pupil.
- and countless more.

don't get me wrong. you strive for inspiration but expecting the majority of teachers to use it as the main tool is naive. mostly, pupils/students don't learn because they have an inspiring teacher. maybe 10% of learning occurs due to this. most of it comes from hard work; lengthy preparation; being adaptable to the whims of humans between the ages of 3-16; and a spoonful of luck.

without changing my passion or inspiration level, i can teach 10 students with basic resources to more success than i can 30 with the very best resources.

parents: if you're paying for education, you're paying for face-to-face time. yeah, the private school might have better resources, classrooms, educational trips & cleaner floors but the meat of your money is going to class size.

[JL25and3]

that's not how it worked last time. a certain group of posters whined and complained endlessly until the mods had enough and shut it down. i can see at least 3 to 4 problems (posters) that would cry to the mods to no end.

I don't think that was the problem. The whiny posters have mostly not been around much. What happened to close it was that a couple of people decided to start trolling the PS, apparently with the aim of blowing it up. They targeted posters and went after them relentlessly in a genuinely meanully style. A few posters got pissed off enough to get themselves RO'd in a blaze of glory, and the viciousness finally ended it.

[Nome]

When I went to college (an engineering school) I saw a high percentage of students drop out. It appeared to me that most of the dropouts were those whose parents paid for their education.
We got five kids through college and although we could have (with difficulty) have paid for their education entirely by ourselves we made all five take out a small student loan. Our reasoning was that they had a financial stake in their schooling they wouldn't be so quick to not try as hard or to give up to soon.


We don't know if our strategy was the thing that brought them success, but all five went through and obtained masters


Andy

[RhodyYanksFan]

Good job Maynerd!

All my kids go to private schools. Wife and I thought long and hard to come to our conclusion.
The public schools in our area just can't provide what we deem important. Through no fault of their own the schools themselves are a mess. High turnover of teachers, cuts in the arts and sports programs. The funding just isn't there. Buildings are pitiful at best.
I'm of the mindset that if you spend 8 hrs. a day with my kid you get paid at the top of the scale as well with cadillac benefits. Educators make a career is the result.
So far so good. The tuitions trains us for the college tuitions.

Except most private school teachers make less than public school teachers. I'm not talking about the Exeter's and St. George's of the world, but your "basic" local private school, those teachers make about 60% of what their public school counterparts make.

[JL25and3]

Except most private school teachers make less than public school teachers. I'm not talking about the Exeter's and St. George's of the world, but your "basic" local private school, those teachers make about 60% of what their public school counterparts make.

But that's what makes them so great, Greg - no unions!

[butterflies]

[QUOTE=Maynerd;8231451]Once upon a time, we had a thread on Education. I can't seem to find it...it was likely in the old Political Soapbox. Regardless, increasingly, we've seen discussion of education show up in the Election thread. Probably not the right venue. So, allow me to create a space to discuss our educational system.


Is what we're doing in Public Education the right route? Should we have educational standards? Is it OK to leave some children behind? What should we be doing, as a society, to make a college education more affordable? Why can't Little Johnny read? Stuff like that.

I taught Special Ed after college and let me tell you, despite their challenges, those kids loved school and tried really hard to do well. The key was parental involvement. I think kids today have so many challenges just to get through each day that a lot of parental involvement would make all the difference in the world. Sadly it doesn't seem to be there. Parents are doubly challenged with work schedules and more often than not, the necessity for a dual incomes 6 months to a year to stay afloat.

Gov. Cuomo has a few interesting ideas on how to make college available to more students.

Since we have so many students from different cultures and different languages, I always thought spending 6 months to a year learning to read and write English would be advantageous to all.

[BRenninger]

Except most private school teachers make less than public school teachers. I'm not talking about the Exeter's and St. George's of the world, but your "basic" local private school, those teachers make about 60% of what their public school counterparts make.

I don't know Rhody. The educators at my kids' school start at 80 grand with full Cadillac health benefits, a 401K, paid maternity leave, each year a raise of 5 grand and probably somethings I'm missing. They make a career of their job. Incentives for participation of outside the school programs/community involvements, etc.
With the teachers so involved inside and outside the school naturally gets parental involvement.
I wouldn't want it any other way for my kids.

[jlw1980]

I don't know Rhody. The educators at my kids' school start at 80 grand with full Cadillac health benefits, a 401K, paid maternity leave, each year a raise of 5 grand and probably somethings I'm missing. They make a career of their job. Incentives for participation of outside the school programs/community involvements, etc.
With the teachers so involved inside and outside the school naturally gets parental involvement.
I wouldn't want it any other way for my kids.

I don't think that's the norm. Most private school teachers make less than public school teachers.

Regardless, most folks (such as myself) can't afford private school. Our public schools need to be reinforced with good funding so they can have smaller class sizes. Teacher turnover is a huge problem, too. They're not respected in this country and it's awful.

All kids deserve equal opportunities regardless of their families' income levels.

[Yankee Tripper]

I don't think that's the norm. Most private school teachers make less than public school teachers.

Regardless, most folks (such as myself) can't afford private school. Our public schools need to be reinforced with good funding so they can have smaller class sizes. Teacher turnover is a huge problem, too. They're not respected in this country and it's awful.

All kids deserve equal opportunities regardless of their families' income levels.

I'm not disputing this but I would like to see the statistics on this.

As well as breaking out private teacher pay by schools associated with religion and those that are nonreligious.

[fredgmuggs]

I'm not disputing this but I would like to see the statistics on this.

As well as breaking out private teacher pay by schools associated with religion and those that are nonreligious.

I'm assuming there's a huge variance in salary levels between a teacher at Phillips Academy and a local Catholic parochial school teacher.