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Thread: Education

  1. #76
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Yankee View Post
    I still have no idea where you've taught before. Where have you taught? You know, as in specific countries, states, cities, etc.

    If class size is 75-85% of the equation, then I guess that anyone on this board could replace you as a teacher? After all, whatever a teacher brings to the table, such as skills, experience, degree, knowledge of the topic at hand, shouldn't be of much importance, correct?

    I also think that it's far more respect to say things such as "I disagree" or "I strongly disagree", "I couldn't disagree more", than to say "you're wrong". I have no idea who else on this board you say that they're wrong, but a little respect goes a long way.
    Class size is massively important. But that doesn't mean any Tom, Dick or Sally can come off the street and teach.

    I think arja's point was more all things being equal in a class room (same text books, same time for instruction, same teacher) EXCEPT for class size the students in the smaller class on average are going to do much, much better than the students in the large class.

    I'm pretty sure studies have confirmed this but I'm too lazy to google specific studies on the topic.
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  2. #77
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by BRenninger View Post
    You sound like an exceptional educator. Passion for teaching comes through in all your posts.

    I know I sound very selfish but boy am I ever glad you're in our country instead of the UK.
    thatís way too kind. trust me.

    i have mental scale that i use to grade teachers i come across. a simple 1-10.

    10s donít exist.

    in my life, iíve met two 9s. both could walk into any class without prep and teach whatever that lesson was and youíd think theyíd been preparing for a month. theyíre naturals. these are the mike trout of teachers.

    iíve met a dozen 8s. they work damn hard and are frequently known outside of the school as being a good teacher. my sister happens to be an 8. this isnít nepotism. ask jeanne - just cos i know you, doesnít mean iím a nice evaluator.

    iíve met a couple of dozen 7s. these are often the best teacher in a school but there might be two of them.

    6s are what you realistically want your staff/faculty to be made up of. if you most of you stay are 6s, your school is on the right course.

    4s and 5s are average. itís fine to have a bunch of fives but they donít make a difference to the school. they work hard & they are vital to not having a school that sucks. if you pair them with an 8, so can inspire them into being better. they'll have various between subjects which flips them back.

    3s are a problem. if you have one of them, other staff have to pick up their mistakes. iíve seen two or three of these.

    2s hurt you. they must be "hidden" to prevent regular problems. iíve met two.

    1s are a Fíing nightmare. i worked with a one. they actively hurt and repress the learning of every student in their class. the single 1 i met was shipped from school to the education authority to school before becoming a deputy head teacher (vice principle) because everywhere he went, anyone would do anything to get rid of him. that included giving him good references.

    obviously, teachers can move between these. had a colleague who was a 7 and became an 8 when her her abusive husband left which took a load off her shoulders. sadly, i also knew an 8 who became a 4. became lazy and stopped putting the effort in. this is gonna sound awful but a lot of teachers drop down when they have their own children. it is understandable.
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  3. #78
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Elementary School. I'm a huge proponent of educational standards. The standard for completing 4th Grade should be a basic understanding of adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing, and the ability to read at a minimum of a 3rd Grade level (allows for at least a little variance). That way, the 5th Grade teacher has a known entering argument.


    Right now, the standard for completing 4th grade is being nine years old. The 5th Grade teacher has no clue whether the input can read or add, because there are no standards or expectations for advancement from 4th to 5th.


    Dr John will argue that if Little Johnny doesn't "get" the material offered in 4th grade, then there's no reason to expect him to understand it if he sits through it a second time. I'll counter that there's no way he can "get" the 5th Grade material if he doesn't have the foundation. Others will argue about the stigma of leaving a student behind as his classmates advance. It'd be nice if we could find a way to do this without the stigma of "failing." Smarter people than me will need to devise this methodology. Regardless, you can't teach multiplication to a kid that can't add. You can't advance to a 6th Grade reading level if you never attained a 5th Grade reading level. Sending unprepared students along, grade to grade, does a disservice to the next level teacher AND to the prepared students in that same class. The teachers' attention will necessarily need to go to the underprepared student OR the curriculum will need to be decelerated to allow the lagging students to catch up.


    High School. By the time a kid gets to 9th Grade, we should have a pretty clear picture of their educational future. We should see two vastly different tracks in our High Schools: one for the college-bound student and the other for those whose education will end after HS.


    The college-bound kids need a firm basis and math and science, the ability to do research, critical thinking. The non-college-bound kids don't need Trigonometry. But, they absolutely need to know how to do Math For The Real World: basic tax preparation, making change, simple parts-and-material estimates, budgets. They need to be able to read and write, maybe not at the same level as the college-bound kid, but enough to be able to prepare or understand work orders or instructions.


    Some schools already do this. Others use a one-size-fits-all curriculum, which does a disservice to BOTH groups.
    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Yeah. I think Maynerd is using some really broad brushes here in the past couple of posts.
    i've included these two comments to help explain something:

    educational standards are very hard for non-educators to define because unless you've educated children, there little chance you fully understand the progression of learning. around 30% of my teaching degree was about understanding progression through "standards". see the attached screenshot of welsh mathematics standards for children between the age of 5 and 11.

    this screen shot shows standards from the welsh curriculum for each year group for the "number relationship" section of mathematics.

    (NB, year 2 = grade 3 and year 6 = grades 5). this doesn't include

    Screen Shot 2017-01-17 at 20.19.16.jpg

    every child has this page in their file. when, as a teacher, i believe i have enough evidence (tests, assessment activities, general work) to prove they can do a bullet point, i highlight it.

    in the UK, and the rest of western europe, schools do not generals hold pupils back. i only saw it happen in the private school i taught. i wish it was for the benefit of the child but it was mainly pushed through by a crappy teacher who didn't want the kid in his class. the teacher happened to be changing grades as well so didn't want the kid two years in a row.

    right, my actual point: every modern country have had something like this for around 20 years, except the US.

    however, the much maligned common core now includes these standards. they are vital to understanding the progression of learning. prior to the common core, many states had different progression levels. and from what i've learnt, many school districts within states had competing different levels.
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  4. #79
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Yankee View Post
    I still have no idea where you've taught before. Where have you taught? You know, as in specific countries, states, cities, etc.

    If class size is 75-85% of the equation, then I guess that anyone on this board could replace you as a teacher? After all, whatever a teacher brings to the table, such as skills, experience, degree, knowledge of the topic at hand, shouldn't be of much importance, correct?

    I also think that it's far more respect to say things such as "I disagree" or "I strongly disagree", "I couldn't disagree more", than to say "you're wrong". I have no idea who else on this board you say that they're wrong, but a little respect goes a long way.
    i have taught in five school in cardiff, wales.
    - first one was the best public school in the country. very good area. well off parents. very supportive community.
    - the middle three were in the part of the city that would compare to newark.
    - the last one was in a poor area on the outskirts of the city.

    also taught in one private school in italy. children from very varied backgrounds. some very rich, some from english speaking parents who wanted their kid to go to an english school.

    as for anyone on the board being able to replace me? it's possible but i doubt it. my degree in primary education alone is enough to separate me from the vast majority in the public. times have changed. walking in off the street to teach children is very different from when i was in elementary school in the 80s. there is stuff about education that most of the public simply don't know. i have some smart friends (parents) who have excellent knowledge of their subject area and have a lot of common sense; but they'd be eaten alive by the nicest group of 8yo. i've watched hardened high school teachers fall apart when trying to teach 7yo how multiply two digits.

    a couple of posts up, i have outlined my personal 1-10 scale for teachers. the average, well educated board member who walks into a class is probably a 2 and might well be a 1. without training, there is next to no chance they become a 4.

    i'm not saying "teachers are amazing". no, teachers slog their guts out (for a long time) during their teacher training and still around 50% enter their first school not ready. the vast majority of us are not geniuses or exceptional or talented.

    my degree can basically be split into three areas:
    - pedagogy: effectively "how to teach" - this was about 40%
    - classroom management: effectively "how to ensure the children don't tear the room apart" - which is about 40%
    - subject knowledge: "facts, stats, info" - about 20%

    people think they can teach a class but most of the time, they can't. you might be able to instruct your children on how to bake a cake or how to fish but teaching a wide and diverse set of 25 plus kids is very different.

    as for using the term "you're wrong" compared to "i disagree", i frequently use the latter. for many aspects in life, i would not feel comfortable saying "you're wrong"; however, in this area, i'm very comfortable using it. i do not say it with any disrespect.

    there are a bunch of people on this board that i would have no problem hearing "you're wrong" from when discussing an area they have prolonged, professional and intimate knowledge & understanding of. anyone in the medical profession. anyone who works in computer programming. anyone in the advanced sciences.

    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  5. #80
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Class size is massively important. But that doesn't mean any Tom, Dick or Sally can come off the street and teach.

    I think arja's point was more all things being equal in a class room (same text books, same time for instruction, same teacher) EXCEPT for class size the students in the smaller class on average are going to do much, much better than the students in the large class.

    I'm pretty sure studies have confirmed this but I'm too lazy to google specific studies on the topic.
    yes, studies have confirmed this. the best was a dutch study in the early to mid 2000s. an new zealand study around five years ago had similar results.

    class size remains the significant factor for children's learning. but beyond your point about having the same text books, time for instruction and same teacher. it's been proved that smaller classes with inferior text books and less time can match or achieve better than larger classes with better teaching/learning materials.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  6. #81
    Foul pole sitter Skowron's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    The teachers in my town demanded a 10% increase in funding and eventually said they would settle for 6%. They actually get 2 raises every year - one is called a raise, the other a step increase (meaning they make it through the year without doing something so egregious that even the union can't protect them.) I wouldn't want their job but I wouldn't mind half of their increases.

  7. #82

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    i've included these two comments to help explain something:

    educational standards are very hard for non-educators to define because unless you've educated children, there little chance you fully understand the progression of learning. around 30% of my teaching degree was about understanding progression through "standards". see the attached screenshot of welsh mathematics standards for children between the age of 5 and 11.

    this screen shot shows standards from the welsh curriculum for each year group for the "number relationship" section of mathematics.

    (NB, year 2 = grade 3 and year 6 = grades 5). this doesn't include

    Attachment 22956

    every child has this page in their file. when, as a teacher, i believe i have enough evidence (tests, assessment activities, general work) to prove they can do a bullet point, i highlight it.

    in the UK, and the rest of western europe, schools do not generals hold pupils back. i only saw it happen in the private school i taught. i wish it was for the benefit of the child but it was mainly pushed through by a crappy teacher who didn't want the kid in his class. the teacher happened to be changing grades as well so didn't want the kid two years in a row.

    right, my actual point: every modern country have had something like this for around 20 years, except the US.

    however, the much maligned common core now includes these standards. they are vital to understanding the progression of learning. prior to the common core, many states had different progression levels. and from what i've learnt, many school districts within states had competing different levels.
    Thanks. With the DeVos hearings going on, I've been reading a lot about proficiency vs growth and the debates over which matters more. As lay people, I think we do simplify education. You're perspective is appreciated.

  8. #83
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Skowron View Post
    The teachers in my town demanded a 10% increase in funding and eventually said they would settle for 6%. They actually get 2 raises every year - one is called a raise, the other a step increase (meaning they make it through the year without doing something so egregious that even the union can't protect them.) I wouldn't want their job but I wouldn't mind half of their increases.

    Well, there's the rub. People want teachers to be excellent, at a job they wouldn't do themselves, but they want them to do it less expensively.


    As it is, the best and brightest simply don't become teachers. The job doesn't earn that much respect, and it certainly doesn't earn that much money. It's not a bad living, particularly if you teach in a wealthy district and put in your years. But it's not enough to lure people away from law or medicine or Wall Street or whatever.


    At the classy prep school I went to, one person in my class went on to Eastern Tennessee Teachers College or something (that doesn't seem to exist, so either I got the name way wrong or it's gone under or been subsumed into something else). At the classy undergraduate college I went to, not a single person I knew ever even considered going into K-12 teaching.


    Once upon a time, the best and brightest of half the population (with few exceptions) could be secretaries, nurses or teachers. A lot of women who became teachers then would now become doctors or Wall Street executives or entrepreneurs or whatever. The next tier, or the tier below that, become teachers. If you want better teachers, you're going to have to do something to attract them.
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  9. #84
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Thanks. With the DeVos hearings going on, I've been reading a lot about proficiency vs growth and the debates over which matters more. As lay people, I think we do simplify education. You're perspective is appreciated.
    thanks.

    the devos hearings are disturbing. it is this kind of thing that should makes you vote HRC even if you despise her.

    - - - -

    education, like most things, is both complex and simple. in my relatively short time as a teacher, i went through three different standard assessment tools (tests, briefly, to assigned assessment activities to continual assessment). they were all a little similar and all a little different.

    my sister is what you call a kindergarten teacher. she'll have an activity going in her class, that to a parent or non-eduator adult, looks like simple colouring & a single word writing. that one activity will inform her on a wide area of standards.

    equally, look at these two pieces of work:

    Screen Shot 2017-01-18 at 10.12.17.png

    Screen Shot 2017-01-18 at 10.12.27.jpg

    the latter is looks more impressive. but they are both level 3 of the curriculum standards. one just happens to have better handwriting.

    - both were given a template for their table so did not have to produce their own.
    - both were able to reproduce the info in another way that could be understood (one used a graph, one used sentences).
    - both obtained data having identified what they should collect and where/how they could collect it.

    and beyond that, the first example is actually a little more impressive. it may look "scruffy" but the work was done independently by a 7yo. the second piece of work was done by a 11yo.

    both achieved the same level. the 11yo left for high school two months later below the expected achievement level in this area. the 7yo is now 11 and doing very well in high but still has crappy handwriting.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  10. #85
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Well, there's the rub. People want teachers to be excellent, at a job they wouldn't do themselves, but they want them to do it less expensively.

    As it is, the best and brightest simply don't become teachers. The job doesn't earn that much respect, and it certainly doesn't earn that much money. It's not a bad living, particularly if you teach in a wealthy district and put in your years. But it's not enough to lure people away from law or medicine or Wall Street or whatever.

    At the classy prep school I went to, one person in my class went on to Eastern Tennessee Teachers College or something (that doesn't seem to exist, so either I got the name way wrong or it's gone under or been subsumed into something else). At the classy undergraduate college I went to, not a single person I knew ever even considered going into K-12 teaching.

    Once upon a time, the best and brightest of half the population (with few exceptions) could be secretaries, nurses or teachers. A lot of women who became teachers then would now become doctors or Wall Street executives or entrepreneurs or whatever. The next tier, or the tier below that, become teachers. If you want better teachers, you're going to have to do something to attract them.
    yep. we want the best teacher for my children; but we don't want to pay for them.

    - - - -

    i didn't become a teacher for the money, though i admit the summer holidays & excellent pension (which i gave up to move to the US) were a long term consideration; however, i'd generally work three days of every holiday week.

    we have a six week summer break. for most of my teaching career, my last friday of school would go something like this:
    - leave school around anywhere between 5-6pm
    - order take out
    - fall asleep
    - wake up three days later
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  11. #86
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Once upon a time, the best and brightest of half the population (with few exceptions) could be secretaries, nurses or teachers. A lot of women who became teachers then would now become doctors or Wall Street executives or entrepreneurs or whatever. The next tier, or the tier below that, become teachers.
    Terrific observation. Women today have many more opportunities than they did a generation or two ago. The unintended consequence of this was to take a great many talented and dynamic future teachers, and move them to other fields.


    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3
    If you want better teachers, you're going to have to do something to attract them.
    So, what can we do to attract those better teachers? Is it just $$, or is there something else that might make this profession more palatable to the best and brightest?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  12. #87
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Terrific observation. Women today have many more opportunities than they did a generation or two ago. The unintended consequence of this was to take a great many talented and dynamic future teachers, and move them to other fields.
    yep. there is some hope that by training teachers more effectively, you can overcome that but it's hardly going to make up the gap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    So, what can we do to attract those better teachers? Is it just $$, or is there something else that might make this profession more palatable to the best and brightest?
    money is gonna make a difference. you don't get rich from being a teacher but i also didn't want to get rich.

    however, i want four things as a teacher:
    - the resources to do the job: way too often, teachers just don't have the materials required to do the job: whether it be art materials to enough computer access. it is nuts that there are schools without enough books.
    - leave us alone. way too frequently as a teacher, you are told by a politician how education must change. the vast majority of the time, they have no idea what they're talking about. we get moderated. we get inspected. we want things to improve. we don't want people who don't understand education telling us what to do all the time. *
    - give pay raises without requiring a promotion out of the classroom. many teachers stake promotions to get more more but it requires them doing more paperwork out of class.
    - more teachers. you don't necessarily have to pay us more but you should employ more osfus. i don't need to earn more but if you can reduce the number of pupils/students in my class, i have more time & energy for each. for instance, marking: it takes (at least) one minute to mark a students work from a lesson. thirty kids = 30 minutes per lesson. four lessons a day = 2 hours of marking every day on average. if i'm teaching only 20 kids, that number drops by 40 minutes each day. that is 40 minutes i could be using to do something else like preparing for my next day of teaching. hell, i might be able to have lunch.

    *in the US, this includes the inclusion of non-since stuff in lessons. we know what i'm talking about. this doesn't happen in the UK despite us teaching Religious Education from a factual point of view.
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    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
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  13. #88

    Re: Education

    arja, do you think more teaching assistants would help? If you can't have smaller classes would having help accomplish anything? It would be less expensive and provide jobs for people that may only have associates degrees possibly even inspiring them to become teachers.

  14. #89
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    however, i want four things as a teacher:
    - the resources to do the job: way too often, teachers just don't have the materials required to do the job: whether it be art materials to enough computer access. it is nuts that there are schools without enough books.
    Fully agree, particularly wrt the books. I understand textbooks are expensive, but not having a book in each kid's hands is inexcusable.
    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21
    - leave us alone. way too frequently as a teacher, you are told by a politician how education must change. the vast majority of the time, they have no idea what they're talking about. we get moderated. we get inspected. we want things to improve. we don't want people who don't understand education telling us what to do all the time.
    Yes and no. Education is over-regulated by people who know nothing of the process, but it's tax dollars. Those politicians have the responsibility to see that there's a return on that investment.
    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21
    - give pay raises without requiring a promotion out of the classroom. many teachers stake promotions to get more more but it requires them doing more paperwork out of class.
    STRONGLY agree. The best teacher I ever had, at any level, moved from the classroom to an Assistant Principal's position to a Principal's job shortly after I had his classes. This man belonged in a classroom, but he needed to move up to better take care of his family. I'd like to see such outstanding teachers identified and (financially) recognized, but the Teacher's Union is steadfastly opposed to merit raises.
    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21
    - more teachers. you don't necessarily have to pay us more but you should employ more osfus. i don't need to earn more but if you can reduce the number of pupils/students in my class, i have more time & energy for each. for instance, marking: it takes (at least) one minute to mark a students work from a lesson. thirty kids = 30 minutes per lesson. four lessons a day = 2 hours of marking every day on average. if i'm teaching only 20 kids, that number drops by 40 minutes each day. that is 40 minutes i could be using to do something else like preparing for my next day of teaching. hell, i might be able to have lunch.
    Agreed. There's a lot of talk about equalization of investment from school district to school district, but a dollar in San Francisco doesn't go as far as a dollar in Tulsa. Perhaps a better equalization could be standards for class size?

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  15. #90
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    arja, do you think more teaching assistants would help? If you can't have smaller classes would having help accomplish anything? It would be less expensive and provide jobs for people that may only have associates degrees possibly even inspiring them to become teachers.
    call me alex.

    teaching assistants can make a big difference -if they're well trained. my last few years in the UK, i had great teaching assistants. one happened to be a retired teacher which was brilliant.

    most classes in the UK have a teaching assistant at elementary level, although not for every lesson of the day. a couple of times i've told my head teacher i don't need one for a particular subject and even gave one up for the whole year because they were better used elsewhere.

    the issue is training. if they're not trained well, you just have an adult helper and that can sometime be more work than it's worth.

    as for high school, not only do you have to train them in pedagogy but also subject specific stuff. most teachers assistants do not have that kind of background. maybe in the US they could/would.

    however, at the end of the day, a well trained teaching assistant shouldn't be dealing with more than half a dozen kids. one year, i had the class all teachers hope they get (22 lovely kids with next to no issues) and my teaching assistant could deal with 10 of them for short periods.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  16. #91
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Fully agree, particularly wrt the books. I understand textbooks are expensive, but not having a book in each kid's hands is inexcusable.
    schools should be temples for learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Yes and no. Education is over-regulated by people who know nothing of the process, but it's tax dollars. Those politicians have the responsibility to see that there's a return on that investment.
    the issue is who says what education should. while i disagreed frequently with the civil servants who came to our school of policy & practice, the vast majority had a etching background so at least i knew they had some idea what we were trying to do.

    the UK overhauled its education system between 1985 and 2005 to ensure we we teaching skills - not facts & figures. then, the conservative party & michael gove denied to undo the whole thing and teach kids dates, facts & figures. it took approximately £102m to convince that govt they were wrong.

    thing what we could have done with that £102m.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    STRONGLY agree. The best teacher I ever had, at any level, moved from the classroom to an Assistant Principal's position to a Principal's job shortly after I had his classes. This man belonged in a classroom, but he needed to move up to better take care of his family. I'd like to see such outstanding teachers identified and (financially) recognized, but the Teacher's Union is steadfastly opposed to merit raises.
    in the UK, during the late 90s, they introduced a concept called "threshold" status. it effectively gave teachers the chance to earn pay slightly under a deputy head teacher (vice principal) but keep them in the classroom. you had to prove you were worth it but it was a good step in the right direction.

    within five years, the process for getting "thresfold" status took longer than doing the MPQH (school leadership course for potential deputies & head teachers). and then they added extra management areas that removed the teacher from the classroom for a day or two week.

    "if we're paying you more, you need to do more" is what they said - missing the point in the first point.

    i've turned down promotions at most of the schools i've taught at using the same line: i didn't spend three years studying for my degree and X number of years in the classroom for you to take me out of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Agreed. There's a lot of talk about equalization of investment from school district to school district, but a dollar in San Francisco doesn't go as far as a dollar in Tulsa. Perhaps a better equalization could be standards for class size?
    yeah, money has different value in different parts of the country. london teachers get more than the rest of the UK but it isn't enough. there are two pay scales for teachers in the UK: london and everywhere else. i'd be happy to give up a grand a year for teachers in London to get more. they need it.

    class sizes should be smaller so having standards that set a limit would be beneficial.

    - - - -

    i don't have all the solutions. maybe i don't have many. i just know what we're doing isn't good enough and every person in the country is effected by it.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  17. #92

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    schools should be temples for learning.



    the issue is who says what education should. while i disagreed frequently with the civil servants who came to our school of policy & practice, the vast majority had a etching background so at least i knew they had some idea what we were trying to do.

    the UK overhauled its education system between 1985 and 2005 to ensure we we teaching skills - not facts & figures. then, the conservative party & michael gove denied to undo the whole thing and teach kids dates, facts & figures. it took approximately £102m to convince that govt they were wrong.

    thing what we could have done with that £102m.



    in the UK, during the late 90s, they introduced a concept called "threshold" status. it effectively gave teachers the chance to earn pay slightly under a deputy head teacher (vice principal) but keep them in the classroom. you had to prove you were worth it but it was a good step in the right direction.

    within five years, the process for getting "thresfold" status took longer than doing the MPQH (school leadership course for potential deputies & head teachers). and then they added extra management areas that removed the teacher from the classroom for a day or two week.

    "if we're paying you more, you need to do more" is what they said - missing the point in the first point.

    i've turned down promotions at most of the schools i've taught at using the same line: i didn't spend three years studying for my degree and X number of years in the classroom for you to take me out of it.



    yeah, money has different value in different parts of the country. london teachers get more than the rest of the UK but it isn't enough. there are two pay scales for teachers in the UK: london and everywhere else. i'd be happy to give up a grand a year for teachers in London to get more. they need it.

    class sizes should be smaller so having standards that set a limit would be beneficial.

    - - - -

    i don't have all the solutions. maybe i don't have many. i just know what we're doing isn't good enough and every person in the country is effected by it.
    That's a heckova post! I agree whole heartedly about class size. My kids (pvt. school) attend lectures (about 30 kids) then go back to their classroom and are put in groups of 5 and discuss and work on the lecture material. No more then 15 kids for each classroom.
    Another factor is parental involvement. Never is there a shortage of volunteers by the parents. They are also welcome to sit in the lectures and work groups.
    Makes a big difference.

  18. #93

    Re: Education

    Dismal Voucher Results Surprise Researchers as DeVos Era Begins

    The confirmation of Betsy DeVos as secretary of education was a signal moment for the school choice movement. For the first time, the nationís highest education official is someone fully committed to making school vouchers and other market-oriented policies the centerpiece of education reform.

    But even as school choice is poised to go national, a wave of new research has emerged suggesting that private school vouchers may harm students who receive them. The results are startling ó the worst in the history of the field, researchers say.

  19. #94
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by BRenninger View Post
    That's a heckova post! I agree whole heartedly about class size. My kids (pvt. school) attend lectures (about 30 kids) then go back to their classroom and are put in groups of 5 and discuss and work on the lecture material. No more then 15 kids for each classroom.

    Another factor is parental involvement. Never is there a shortage of volunteers by the parents. They are also welcome to sit in the lectures and work groups.
    Makes a big difference.
    parents can be a double-edged sword. some can be very useful. some, well, not so much. we rarely used parent volunteers unless it was for a special event, visit or activity.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  20. #95
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    the whole voucher thing is weird. never made much sense.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  21. #96

    Re: Education

    Ha, I was just going to post this in the Trump thread. Vouchers are garbage.

  22. #97

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    parents can be a double-edged sword. some can be very useful. some, well, not so much. we rarely used parent volunteers unless it was for a special event, visit or activity.
    While I do agree with the double edge sword comparison I meant more participation in the lectures themselves. Not the typical police officer, firefighters, emt's presentations. This year alone there have been lectures and Q and A's afterwards back in the class rooms A WHO Dr, A DWOB (Dr's. Without Borders,) a Peace Corp volunteer, pharmacist, an avian vet, structural bridge engineer, a curator at the Library of Congress, a lighthouse caretaker, landscape surveyor, oceanographer, iron worker (the funniest), grant writer, Chamber of Congress officer, and on and on. Lot of parental participation in field trips and after school activities as well.
    That's what I meant.
    The presidency doesn't change who you are. It reveals who you are. First Lady Michelle Obama (2015)

  23. #98

    Re: Education

    I may have posted this up thread or somewhere else...........Our children are our country's greatest natural resource. Those that guide/teach our kids should be given every resource needed as well as being rewarded with highest salaries and benefit packages. You spend 6+ hrs. with my children I want the teachers at the high end of the scale and to make a career at their school.
    The presidency doesn't change who you are. It reveals who you are. First Lady Michelle Obama (2015)

  24. #99
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    the whole voucher thing is weird. never made much sense.
    It makes perfect sense if you're a small government religious conservative but want the government to cover some of the cost to send your kid to one of those bible schools.

  25. #100

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    It makes perfect sense if you're a small government religious conservative but want the government to cover some of the cost to send your kid to one of those bible schools.
    Vouchers have always been so confusing to me. On the surface I would have guessed that the right would be against it it and the left in favor. But it's been the other way around.

    Just to confirm, the federal government is not involved here, and this is handled on the local level? (At least, until DeVos showed up)
    It won't be long before we can all forget Cano and realize that Castro can be everything Robinson was for us. - Retired_Doc

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