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Thread: Education

  1. #26
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    I'm assuming there's a huge variance in salary levels between a teacher at Phillips Academy and a local Catholic parochial school teacher.
    I would too which I why I was wondering.

    Currently a pretty large segment of the Private Schools are associated directly with some form of religion.
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  2. #27

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I would too which I why I was wondering.

    Currently a pretty large segment of the Private Schools are associated directly with some form of religion.
    My experiences with Catholic school teachers is they're paid substantially less than a comparable public school teacher. They do it because (1) they're young and it's the only teaching job they can find but hope to eventually get a teaching job in the public sector, or (2) they're committed to Catholic education and accept that they're going to make less money
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  3. #28
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    I don't think that's the norm. Most private school teachers make less than public school teachers.

    Regardless, most folks (such as myself) can't afford private school. Our public schools need to be reinforced with good funding so they can have smaller class sizes. Teacher turnover is a huge problem, too. They're not respected in this country and it's awful.

    All kids deserve equal opportunities regardless of their families' income levels.
    As a husband of a public school teacher, I can vouch for this. My wife's district is the lowest paid in the state and every year there's people in the town that complain about the education budget. Usually it's the people who are in their 60s who's kids already went through the schools years ago. They don't remember that for years other people without kids paid for their kids' education and now it's their turn.

  4. #29
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    As a husband of a public school teacher, I can vouch for this. My wife's district is the lowest paid in the state and every year there's people in the town that complain about the education budget. Usually it's the people who are in their 60s who's kids already went through the schools years ago. They don't remember that for years other people without kids paid for their kids' education and now it's their turn.
    And get off their lawn!

    God forbid a $12 a year parcel tax get past and strain their budget.
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  5. #30
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    And get off their lawn!

    God forbid a $12 a year parcel tax get past and strain their budget.
    That's a little insensitive and ignores some real issues. The elderly are often house rich and cash poor. Real estate taxes are usually neck and and neck with health care for the biggest items on their budget, and both have risen at far higher rates than the fixed incomes they survive on.

    Sure, tax them plenty so they have to move to some low-tax haven, and some family with five kids moves in attracted by those wonderful free public schools with gold-plated auditoriums and AstroTurf football fields, like in my district. And don't forget umpteen essential assistant principals--far more than equivalent private schools. (And for the record, since 1937, my family has never had a kid in public school here.)

    Eventually that attitude breaks the system.
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  6. #31

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I'm not disputing this but I would like to see the statistics on this.

    As well as breaking out private teacher pay by schools associated with religion and those that are nonreligious.
    http://www.theatlantic.com/education...achers/280829/

    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    I'm assuming there's a huge variance in salary levels between a teacher at Phillips Academy and a local Catholic parochial school teacher.
    Most of the "teachers" at a place like Phillips have PhDs.

  7. #32
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    That's a little insensitive and ignores some real issues. The elderly are often house rich and cash poor. Real estate taxes are usually neck and and neck with health care for the biggest items on their budget, and both have risen at far higher rates than the fixed incomes they survive on.

    Sure, tax them plenty so they have to move to some low-tax haven, and some family with five kids moves in attracted by those wonderful free public schools with gold-plated auditoriums and AstroTurf football fields, like in my district. And don't forget umpteen essential assistant principals--far more than equivalent private schools. (And for the record, since 1937, my family has never had a kid in public school here.)

    Eventually that attitude breaks the system.
    I understand that. But I am literally talking about an actual $12* a year parcel tax that failed in my local district largely on the platform of that it would hurt the elderly. This was an item that would have made the parcel tax the exact same as the school district next to us where property values are 10% - 15% higher due largely to the better performing school district. And in CA we have this terrible/wonderful thing call Prop 13 which limits property tax increases. Example, my next door neighbor bought his house in the 70s, me in the 90s. His property is similar value to mine. His property taxes are one tenth of mine.

    *It may have been as high as $36 a year it was a few years ago. It got over 50% but not the 60% or 66% needed for the tax increase.

    And yes I agree administrative overhead at public schools such as too many vice principles etc. is a complaint I have too.
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  8. #33

    Re: Education

    A reason I loathe the small government philosophy taken as a blanket statement. You don't get quality teachers on the cheap. You need to invest in the schools and no one is saying throw money at the problem which is a nice sounding sound bite but public schools need to be funded where they can attract top quality teachers, classes are reasonably sized, lunches can be good and healthy and teachers don't have to pay for supplies themselves.
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  9. #34
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    A reason I loathe the small government philosophy taken as a blanket statement. You don't get quality teachers on the cheap. You need to invest in the schools and no one is saying throw money at the problem which is a nice sounding sound bite but public schools need to be funded where they can attract top quality teachers, classes are reasonably sized, lunches can be good and healthy and teachers don't have to pay for supplies themselves.
    This man gets it.
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  10. #35
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    But that's what makes them so great, Greg - no unions!
    apparently so.

    in the UK, private school teachers can be part of the standard teacher unions.

    Quote Originally Posted by BRenninger View Post
    I don't know Rhody. The educators at my kids' school start at 80 grand with full Cadillac health benefits, a 401K, paid maternity leave, each year a raise of 5 grand and probably somethings I'm missing. They make a career of their job. Incentives for participation of outside the school programs/community involvements, etc.
    With the teachers so involved inside and outside the school naturally gets parental involvement.
    I wouldn't want it any other way for my kids.
    so do most teachers. you don't become a teacher for any other reason than because you want a career that helps children/young people achieve their potential; and if you do, you probably don't last long.

    generally, private school teachers get paid less in the US. they also don't get the same quality benefits that public school teachers do. as someone who has spent a lot of time looking at various schools, i've not come across a single private school matching public pay.
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  11. #36
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    A reason I loathe the small government philosophy taken as a blanket statement. You don't get quality teachers on the cheap. You need to invest in the schools and no one is saying throw money at the problem which is a nice sounding sound bite but public schools need to be funded where they can attract top quality teachers, classes are reasonably sized, lunches can be good and healthy and teachers don't have to pay for supplies themselves.
    the US is the only modernised country that argues over the size of the government. a government is suppose to run the country. you don't pick the size & then put it to work.
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  12. #37
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by ajra21 View Post
    sorry brad, but that is just plain wrong. not criticising you personally brad - just want to make sure everyone knows how inaccurate that statement is.

    having taught in both public & private schools, i can attest to there being no connection between "respect" and having paid for education. saw just as much respect/disrespect from children in the private school as i have in the "free" schools. in some ways it was worse. some pupils from money treat teachers like they were nothing more than their paid baby sitter.

    as for parents reminding their kids about how much their education costs, do you really thing a bunch of 13yo care? trust me, they don't. maybe a small percentage will but most have little to no comprehension of what it means to pay $1000 a month for them to attend school.

    equally, i've seen many pupils love their "free" education simply because it's the one place they can rely on in life to be there for them. it's a sanctuary from a chaotic home-life.

    maybe you've seen an example of "free" schools leading to a "party" but i'm betting it's a small and unreliable sample size.
    Where exactly have you taught? You'd mentioned having grown up in Wales. I've never had any Prince Charles. I'm referring to Brooklyn, NY and Jersey City, NJ.

    I went to public schools. I've always known that many going to public schools didn't have much respect. Yes, I've also seen private (aka, "preppie") school kids have no respect also. It's more a matter of spoiled rich kids who don't know the value of a dollar.

    If a public school is in an area where there's a lot of public housing (aka, the "projects"), I would say that getting a good education may be difficult. Some schools are simply not going to attract the better educators.

    I've grown up in wealthy areas and crime-ridden areas. I've watched carefully how the kids react to one another, having taken public transportation with them.

    A public school such as Brooklyn Tech or Bronx HS of Science will routinely churn out excellent students who are well-equipped to advance to college. Some others just pass the students along, even if they are barely passing.

    As for class size, I don't remember having disagreed with you. I just don't think that's the only thing there. If the teacher doesn't get the students wanting to read a book or anything else, that may be related to class size. It could also relate to the teacher's capabilities as an educator.

    inspiration is frequently overrated when it A comes to teaching. it isn't like the movies. teachers don't go in there with some immensely over-whelming charisma/world message and change broken children into stars.

    class size makes a staggering difference simply because of face-to-face time. in a class of 30, half the class won't get the more than a minute with the teacher (individually) per lesson. in a class of 15, everyone will get substantially more. that face-to-face time does numerous things:
    - maintains focus on learning
    - reduces opportunity for poor behaviour
    - enhances relationship between pupil & teacher increasing trust.
    - reduces issues when teacher is with another pupil.
    - and countless more.

    don't get me wrong. you strive for inspiration but expecting the majority of teachers to use it as the main tool is naive. mostly, pupils/students don't learn because they have an inspiring teacher. maybe 10% of learning occurs due to this. most of it comes from hard work; lengthy preparation; being adaptable to the whims of humans between the ages of 3-16; and a spoonful of luck.

    without changing my passion or inspiration level, i can teach 10 students with basic resources to more success than i can 30 with the very best resources.

    parents: if you're paying for education, you're paying for face-to-face time. yeah, the private school might have better resources, classrooms, educational trips & cleaner floors but the meat of your money is going to class size.
    Like I said, I have no issues with your comment about class size. However, if the teachers aren't getting the students to use their reference material properly, not giving them solid examples, you can be one-on-one as a tutor and there won't be much accomplished. The teacher simply has to be able to communicate his/her thoughts to the students.

    I've never gone to school in the UK, so our experiences obviously vary widely.

    I personally believe that the learning begins at home, but that's another topic, and I can't spend tons of time getting too in-depth.
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  13. #38
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Yankee View Post
    Where exactly have you taught? You'd mentioned having grown up in Wales. I've never had any Prince Charles. I'm referring to Brooklyn, NY and Jersey City, NJ.

    I went to public schools. I've always known that many going to public schools didn't have much respect. Yes, I've also seen private (aka, "preppie") school kids have no respect also. It's more a matter of spoiled rich kids who don't know the value of a dollar.

    If a public school is in an area where there's a lot of public housing (aka, the "projects"), I would say that getting a good education may be difficult. Some schools are simply not going to attract the better educators.

    I've grown up in wealthy areas and crime-ridden areas. I've watched carefully how the kids react to one another, having taken public transportation with them.

    A public school such as Brooklyn Tech or Bronx HS of Science will routinely churn out excellent students who are well-equipped to advance to college. Some others just pass the students along, even if they are barely passing.

    As for class size, I don't remember having disagreed with you. I just don't think that's the only thing there. If the teacher doesn't get the students wanting to read a book or anything else, that may be related to class size. It could also relate to the teacher's capabilities as an educator.

    Like I said, I have no issues with your comment about class size. However, if the teachers aren't getting the students to use their reference material properly, not giving them solid examples, you can be one-on-one as a tutor and there won't be much accomplished. The teacher simply has to be able to communicate his/her thoughts to the students.

    I've never gone to school in the UK, so our experiences obviously vary widely.
    i've taught in six different schools in two countries. mostly state schools but one private. also have dozens of colleagues with their experiences. i've spent time in american schools too. the difference is minimal. i'd say the US is around five to seven years behind western europe in terms of the consistent use of cutting edge practices & general modern education. most US public schools are in the second stage of modernising. i went though this stage in around 2010 in the UK. the dutch, scandinavians & germans went through it in around 2004-2006.

    - - - -

    less economically well off areas (like you've stated above) are not a large sample size of state schools. their issues are well known and will obviously impact the education of the students. not because they attend a state school but because of the difficulties they face in everyday life.

    class size isn't the only thing but it's about 75% to 85% of it. i've seen fairy crappy teachers get good results with small classes. i've seen damn good teachers struggle with large classes. like i said, face-to-face time is the single biggest component of education for a child.

    as for the bolded paragraph: having smaller class sizes will directly effect how well resources are used. pretty much any modern teacher can get kids to use their resources but being able to sit with a small group of children with there book, tool, material etc is always going to be more effective than doing the exact same thing at the front of a classroom of 25 to 30. perhaps my most challenging class was teaching mathematics to 36 above average 8-9yo. not a single below average kid in the class.
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  14. #39
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Jersey Yankee View Post
    I personally believe that the learning begins at home, but that's another topic, and I can't spend tons of time getting too in-depth.
    whenever parents of young children (3 to 5yo) asked me how best to support their kid in school, my standard response was:
    - teach them how to sit.
    - teach them how to listen.
    - teach them how to read.

    it might sound basic, it might even seem dismissive but if parents can do that, the next fifteen years are gonna be easy for their kid. i can do the rest. as they get older, there will be more stuff for the parent to do.

    around 65% of the jobs our children will do as an adult do not currently exist. the only way to prepare them for the unknown is to develop their skills & thinking. knowledge & fact based learning is significantly less successful at producing successful adults.

    don't get me wrong, knowing the fundamentals of the civil war has it's place. but it's better that a child develops the skills to inform themselves. teachers & parents who teach knowledge & facts alone limit the student/child to their own knowledge & facts. teachers & parents who develop the child's skills & critical thinking will produce self-learners. self-learners are consistently the most effective & productive people in society.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
    'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play ...

  15. #40
    Chapecó, que tristeza theDurk's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    A reason I loathe the small government philosophy taken as a blanket statement. You don't get quality teachers on the cheap. You need to invest in the schools and no one is saying throw money at the problem which is a nice sounding sound bite but public schools need to be funded where they can attract top quality teachers, classes are reasonably sized, lunches can be good and healthy and teachers don't have to pay for supplies themselves.
    It would be nice if there would be some assurance that additional investment would not just result in paying the same crappy teachers more money due to seniority systems, and adding even more assistant principals, while keeping the same class sizes. Maybe the lunch will get better, but only after putting six full-time nutritionists in an office somewhere.

    Of course, every time there is an innovative low-overhead solution like charter schools the answer is that it sucks good students and resources away from the big public education machine that needs it more. It also hates the competition.

    Sorry, but blanket statements are as flawed on one side as they are on the other. Just dollars aren't going to fix the problems. When the system shows it can reward good teachers and weed out bad ones, and concentrate resources in the classroom where they belong, taxpayers will be more willing to 'invest' in the product.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  16. #41
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    It would be nice if there would be some assurance that additional investment would not just result in paying the same crappy teachers more money due to seniority systems, and adding even more assistant principals, while keeping the same class sizes. Maybe the lunch will get better, but only after putting six full-time nutritionists in an office somewhere.

    Of course, every time there is an innovative low-overhead solution like charter schools the answer is that it sucks good students and resources away from the big public education machine that needs it more. It also hates the competition.

    Sorry, but blanket statements are as flawed on one side as they are on the other. Just dollars aren't going to fix the problems. When the system shows it can reward good teachers and weed out bad ones, and concentrate resources in the classroom where they belong, taxpayers will be more willing to 'invest' in the product.
    You guys elected Chris Christie. Not sure about the willingness to invest given your state's voting record.

  17. #42

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    It would be nice if there would be some assurance that additional investment would not just result in paying the same crappy teachers more money due to seniority systems, and adding even more assistant principals, while keeping the same class sizes. Maybe the lunch will get better, but only after putting six full-time nutritionists in an office somewhere.

    Of course, every time there is an innovative low-overhead solution like charter schools the answer is that it sucks good students and resources away from the big public education machine that needs it more. It also hates the competition.

    Sorry, but blanket statements are as flawed on one side as they are on the other. Just dollars aren't going to fix the problems. When the system shows it can reward good teachers and weed out bad ones, and concentrate resources in the classroom where they belong, taxpayers will be more willing to 'invest' in the product.
    The two go hand in hand. Right now we expect top notch product on the cheap
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

  18. #43

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    It would be nice if there would be some assurance that additional investment would not just result in paying the same crappy teachers more money due to seniority systems, and adding even more assistant principals, while keeping the same class sizes. Maybe the lunch will get better, but only after putting six full-time nutritionists in an office somewhere.

    Of course, every time there is an innovative low-overhead solution like charter schools the answer is that it sucks good students and resources away from the big public education machine that needs it more. It also hates the competition.

    Sorry, but blanket statements are as flawed on one side as they are on the other. Just dollars aren't going to fix the problems. When the system shows it can reward good teachers and weed out bad ones, and concentrate resources in the classroom where they belong, taxpayers will be more willing to 'invest' in the product.
    There's a whole lot of both racism and elitism associated with charter schools that needs to be fixed before I'd call them any kind of a solution. And they do suck money and resources away from public education although I think that is a much more solvable problem.

  19. #44
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    Re: Education

    Elementary School. I'm a huge proponent of educational standards. The standard for completing 4th Grade should be a basic understanding of adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing, and the ability to read at a minimum of a 3rd Grade level (allows for at least a little variance). That way, the 5th Grade teacher has a known entering argument.


    Right now, the standard for completing 4th grade is being nine years old. The 5th Grade teacher has no clue whether the input can read or add, because there are no standards or expectations for advancement from 4th to 5th.


    Dr John will argue that if Little Johnny doesn't "get" the material offered in 4th grade, then there's no reason to expect him to understand it if he sits through it a second time. I'll counter that there's no way he can "get" the 5th Grade material if he doesn't have the foundation. Others will argue about the stigma of leaving a student behind as his classmates advance. It'd be nice if we could find a way to do this without the stigma of "failing." Smarter people than me will need to devise this methodology. Regardless, you can't teach multiplication to a kid that can't add. You can't advance to a 6th Grade reading level if you never attained a 5th Grade reading level. Sending unprepared students along, grade to grade, does a disservice to the next level teacher AND to the prepared students in that same class. The teachers' attention will necessarily need to go to the underprepared student OR the curriculum will need to be decelerated to allow the lagging students to catch up.


    High School. By the time a kid gets to 9th Grade, we should have a pretty clear picture of their educational future. We should see two vastly different tracks in our High Schools: one for the college-bound student and the other for those whose education will end after HS.


    The college-bound kids need a firm basis and math and science, the ability to do research, critical thinking. The non-college-bound kids don't need Trigonometry. But, they absolutely need to know how to do Math For The Real World: basic tax preparation, making change, simple parts-and-material estimates, budgets. They need to be able to read and write, maybe not at the same level as the college-bound kid, but enough to be able to prepare or understand work orders or instructions.


    Some schools already do this. Others use a one-size-fits-all curriculum, which does a disservice to BOTH groups.

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  20. #45
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Public School Manning/Funding. Many school districts require all their teachers to have a Teaching Certificate. I'd prefer a mix of teachers, some with education backgrounds, and others from differing backgrounds. Educational tracks in college teach the current model of public education. That model isn't working! It creates stagnation. We keep doing things the same way, because we've taught the staff it's the only way those things can be done. I have a BS and an MBA. I've taught college classes. But, with those particular degrees, I'm not eligible to teach public school.


    As for funding, there's a dilemma. Teachers get two months off every year, in addition to various breaks throughout the school year. So, it would seem reasonable to pay them less than someone who is expected to work 50 weeks a year. Great. That's not at all helpful if you're a teacher trying to support a family. Reducing class size takes money. Providing a diverse education (athletics, arts) takes money. Upkeep of facilities takes money.


    We focus a lot of attention on hiring and retaining good teachers (and little to no attention on getting rid of bad teachers). Perhaps we need to start comparing school districts by where their money is invested. I know this is already done, but it likely needs a little more publicity. Schools that invest at least __% of their budget in the arts have a __% higher success rate. Schools that have a class size of __ or less have a __% higher success rate. The (and this is critical) homes in school districts that are successful have a __% higher value. If you can do this, you can convince the childless voter that it's in his best interest to support that marginal increase in investment in schools.

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  21. #46
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Elementary School. I'm a huge proponent of educational standards. The standard for completing 4th Grade should be a basic understanding of adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing, and the ability to read at a minimum of a 3rd Grade level (allows for at least a little variance). That way, the 5th Grade teacher has a known entering argument.


    Right now, the standard for completing 4th grade is being nine years old. The 5th Grade teacher has no clue whether the input can read or add, because there are no standards or expectations for advancement from 4th to 5th.
    Illiteracy is a huge problem but what is the real solution? I honestly don't know but the statistics I just looked up on illiteracy are quite staggering.

    I'm guessing though that a very large part of the problem is not public education v private or school choice or vouchers or charter schools. The root problem is likely that

    #1 Illiterate children are probably highly correlated with illiterate parents. So the question is how do you identify these at risk kids early and how do you get them the help they need when help is not available at home from a parent.

    #2 Illiteracy rates among poor children are like at a MUCH higher rate than illiteracy rates among middle class and upper class children. So again, how do you target teaching and resources to these at risk groups when money is simply not available from that group to pay for it?

    Because I'm pretty sure "school choice" is going to do almost nothing to solve the "Why can't Johnny read?" question.

    Standards are great and I'm all for them but how do you bring kids up to those standards when the support system at home just isn't there?

    I mean we really don't like what, how and how much they are teach our 7th grader in math so we fully supplement what she's learning in class with other materials but many parents aren't so lucky to be able to do that or even know where to go for such help and instruction.
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  22. #47
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Public School Manning/Funding. Many school districts require all their teachers to have a Teaching Certificate. I'd prefer a mix of teachers, some with education backgrounds, and others from differing backgrounds. Educational tracks in college teach the current model of public education. That model isn't working! It creates stagnation. We keep doing things the same way, because we've taught the staff it's the only way those things can be done. I have a BS and an MBA. I've taught college classes. But, with those particular degrees, I'm not eligible to teach public school.
    I'm all for standards and certificates for teachers but I think there should be an easier path to that certificate for folks like you (and others) who have great real world experience and want to go into teaching at the K-12 later in life.

    I know there are programs out there to get the certificates I just don't know how accessible they are.-
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  23. #48
    NYYF Legend

    ojo's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Elementary School. I'm a huge proponent of educational standards. The standard for completing 4th Grade should be a basic understanding of adding, subtracting, multiplying and dividing, and the ability to read at a minimum of a 3rd Grade level (allows for at least a little variance). That way, the 5th Grade teacher has a known entering argument.


    Right now, the standard for completing 4th grade is being nine years old. The 5th Grade teacher has no clue whether the input can read or add, because there are no standards or expectations for advancement from 4th to 5th.


    Dr John will argue that if Little Johnny doesn't "get" the material offered in 4th grade, then there's no reason to expect him to understand it if he sits through it a second time. I'll counter that there's no way he can "get" the 5th Grade material if he doesn't have the foundation. Others will argue about the stigma of leaving a student behind as his classmates advance. It'd be nice if we could find a way to do this without the stigma of "failing." Smarter people than me will need to devise this methodology. Regardless, you can't teach multiplication to a kid that can't add. You can't advance to a 6th Grade reading level if you never attained a 5th Grade reading level. Sending unprepared students along, grade to grade, does a disservice to the next level teacher AND to the prepared students in that same class. The teachers' attention will necessarily need to go to the underprepared student OR the curriculum will need to be decelerated to allow the lagging students to catch up.


    High School. By the time a kid gets to 9th Grade, we should have a pretty clear picture of their educational future. We should see two vastly different tracks in our High Schools: one for the college-bound student and the other for those whose education will end after HS.


    The college-bound kids need a firm basis and math and science, the ability to do research, critical thinking. The non-college-bound kids don't need Trigonometry. But, they absolutely need to know how to do Math For The Real World: basic tax preparation, making change, simple parts-and-material estimates, budgets. They need to be able to read and write, maybe not at the same level as the college-bound kid, but enough to be able to prepare or understand work orders or instructions.


    Some schools already do this. Others use a one-size-fits-all curriculum, which does a disservice to BOTH groups.
    If a one size fits fit all approach doesn't work (I agree), why would a two sizes fit all necessarily work?

    By 9th grade a kid's got to have all his ducks in a row lest he get tossed into AC repair classes?

    Perhaps aptitude tests to move kids from one grade to the next, beyond credits achieved is the way to do it. As in, "in order to enter 10th grade, you must demonstrate the following abilities...and they'd be a laundry list from managing a checkbook to changing the oil on an automobile." That'd help kids who are book smart but common sense-stupid in the long run, too..

    School is supposed to be about the art of the possible, and to help a kid realize his potential. Branding their limitations isn't the way to go about anything, frankly.

  24. #49
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    If a one size fits fit all approach doesn't work (I agree), why would a two sizes fit all necessarily work?

    By 9th grade a kid's got to have all his ducks in a row lest he get tossed into AC repair classes?
    If a kid's not destined for college, what's wrong with getting him into AC repair classes earlier? I'm a well-educated guy. And, when my AC isn't working right, I need to call someone with less book learning, but a lot more HVAC experience. There shouldn't be a stigma to being in that HVAC repair track. It's important. However, I hear your argument. Three or four or five different tracks might be far better for the student, but the more tracks you add, the harder (and more expensive) it would be to implement.

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo
    Perhaps aptitude tests to move kids from one grade to the next, beyond credits achieved is the way to do it. As in, "in order to enter 10th grade, you must demonstrate the following abilities...and they'd be a laundry list from managing a checkbook to changing the oil on an automobile." That'd help kids who are book smart but common sense-stupid in the long run, too..
    Why does 10th Grade need to start in August or September when a kid is 15? If a 13 year old is ready to tackle 10th grade work in April, could we find a way to move him?


    I fully support your checkbook/oil change scenario. There are life skills we simply don't teach in school. Many of those are much more important than the curriculum we're teaching. I first got exposed to a Form 1040 in Seventh Grade math. That simply isn't done any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo
    School is supposed to be about the art of the possible, and to help a kid realize his potential. Branding their limitations isn't the way to go about anything, frankly.
    Agreed, but forcing a non-college-bound student into a curriculum he isn't interested in, and will doubtful ever need, is setting him up for failure, no? Some kids' potential is to become a cook or a plumber. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!!! Shouldn't we identify those kids before they graduate HS, and help them realize their potential in their non-academic future?

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  25. #50

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    If a kid's not destined for college, what's wrong with getting him into AC repair classes earlier? I'm a well-educated guy. And, when my AC isn't working right, I need to call someone with less book learning, but a lot more HVAC experience. There shouldn't be a stigma to being in that HVAC repair track. It's important. However, I hear your argument. Three or four or five different tracks might be far better for the student, but the more tracks you add, the harder (and more expensive) it would be to implement.

    Why does 10th Grade need to start in August or September when a kid is 15? If a 13 year old is ready to tackle 10th grade work in April, could we find a way to move him?


    I fully support your checkbook/oil change scenario. There are life skills we simply don't teach in school. Many of those are much more important than the curriculum we're teaching. I first got exposed to a Form 1040 in Seventh Grade math. That simply isn't done any more.

    Agreed, but forcing a non-college-bound student into a curriculum he isn't interested in, and will doubtful ever need, is setting him up for failure, no? Some kids' potential is to become a cook or a plumber. THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT!!!! Shouldn't we identify those kids before they graduate HS, and help them realize their potential in their non-academic future?
    I think that's walking a really fine line. I'm all for trade school for the kids that want it. But they're still kids and once you put them on that track, they're unlikely to be able to get off it. Teenagers don't always know what they want and what they want today might not be what they want tomorrow. It's especially difficult when you are working with kids that don't have a good parental support system or parents that don't speak english or kids that think they have to go to a trade simply because they can't afford college. It's not only not a one-size-fits-all, it's something that needs one on one attention from someone that really knows the kid and not just on paper.

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