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Thread: Education

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  2. #327
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    Re: Education

    ONLY ABOUT A THIRD OF U.S. high school seniors are prepared for college-level coursework in math and reading. And while the performance of the country’s highest achievers is increasing in reading, the lowest-achieving students are performing worse than ever.

    But I doubt it has ANYTHING to do with the growing income and wealth disparity in the nation. Nope, not one bit, let's let the rich keep even more money the poor schools sure don't need it.

    Better yet, let's give the money to corporations, I'm sure they'll use it to solve our education problems!
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  3. #328
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Education


    Okay? You're talking about two separate problems with two different sets of solutions. Not making college affordable for those that are ready does not mean we should not be striving to fix the problems in K-12. It's not one or the other.

  4. #329
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Okay? You're talking about two separate problems with two different sets of solutions. Not making college affordable for those that are ready does not mean we should not be striving to fix the problems in K-12. It's not one or the other.
    Agreed. I just said that I think fixing K-12 needs to be the top education priority, and college affordability later. I'm not willing to pick up the bill for tuition for kids that aren't ready for the college I'll be paying for.

    I'm also unwilling to pick up that bill if there are no societal pay-backs included. So, you want to be a doctor/lawyer/nurse/teacher/accountant/engineer? Great. We'll pay for your education, but you're going to be a doctor/lawyer/nurse/teacher/accountant/engineer in Bugtussle for a couple years before signing on with that high-paying gig in the big city.

    But, back to the Department of Education. Are they doing anything to resolve either of these problems? Have they ever?

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  5. #330
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Agreed. I just said that I think fixing K-12 needs to be the top education priority, and college affordability later. I'm not willing to pick up the bill for tuition for kids that aren't ready for the college I'll be paying for.

    I'm also unwilling to pick up that bill if there are no societal pay-backs included. So, you want to be a doctor/lawyer/nurse/teacher/accountant/engineer? Great. We'll pay for your education, but you're going to be a doctor/lawyer/nurse/teacher/accountant/engineer in Bugtussle for a couple years before signing on with that high-paying gig in the big city.

    But, back to the Department of Education. Are they doing anything to resolve either of these problems? Have they ever?
    As has been made clear these last few years, the Department of Education can't set a nationwide curriculum. There's been significant resistance to the federal government's effort to set standards when the federal government didn't eve do anything. Imagine if they actually did try to do something...

    I don't understand why any effort to improve public education, whether at the K-12 level or above, has any bearing on the DOE's decision to stop investigating for-profit schools that are defrauding their students. I suppose it's completely coincidental that people involved with those very schools are ow supervising the DOE (and the White House).
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  6. #331
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    ...has any bearing on the DOE's decision to stop investigating for-profit schools that are defrauding their students.
    It shouldn't. But, I'd like to see the "for-profit" limitation removed. I firmly believe that a significant portion of not-for-profit schools similarly defraud their students. "You need to take on massive debt to pay this exorbitant tuition because after you graduate....."

    We turn our noses up at "for-profit" institutions while allowing more traditional schools to fleece their students. "Well, we might be ripping you off, but at least we're not 'for-profit' and look at how many of our faculty have published textbooks!"

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  7. #332
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    But, back to the Department of Education. Are they doing anything to resolve either of these problems? Have they ever?
    Given that the current Secretary of Education seems to have the single minded goals of destroying the public education system while protecting predatory for profit "colleges" and I use the term "colleges" lightly. I'm going to go with a big fat NO for at least the next 2 and a half year.


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  8. #333
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    It shouldn't. But, I'd like to see the "for-profit" limitation removed. I firmly believe that a significant portion of not-for-profit schools similarly defraud their students. "You need to take on massive debt to pay this exorbitant tuition because after you graduate....."

    We turn our noses up at "for-profit" institutions while allowing more traditional schools to fleece their students. "Well, we might be ripping you off, but at least we're not 'for-profit' and look at how many of our faculty have published textbooks!"
    There is a difference between failing at a school and going to a school designed to fail.


    Most of the not for profit higher education schools are not set up to rip off students.


    Many of the for profit "schools" are set us specifically to rip off students.
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  9. #334
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    It shouldn't. But, I'd like to see the "for-profit" limitation removed. I firmly believe that a significant portion of not-for-profit schools similarly defraud their students. "You need to take on massive debt to pay this exorbitant tuition because after you graduate....."

    We turn our noses up at "for-profit" institutions while allowing more traditional schools to fleece their students. "Well, we might be ripping you off, but at least we're not 'for-profit' and look at how many of our faculty have published textbooks!"
    I donít see what the fraud is that youíre complaining about. The for-profit schools tell direct lies, as opposed to allowing people to believe what they believe about the value of higher education.

  10. #335
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I donít see what the fraud is that youíre complaining about. The for-profit schools tell direct lies, as opposed to allowing people to believe what they believe about the value of higher education.
    I think people "believe what they believe about the value of higher education" because of direct lies told to them by the education community.

    Since 1980, tuition has increased by well over twice the rate of consumer goods. Are all those colleges providing twice the education they used to? Or, have they distorted what the people believe about the value received? Are they taking advantage of the government's willingness to guarantee student loans? Are they telling prospective students about lecture-hall class sizes and classes taught by TAs? Or, are they emphasizing the success of a vary select group of its graduates?

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  11. #336
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I think people "believe what they believe about the value of higher education" because of direct lies told to them by the education community.

    Since 1980, tuition has increased by well over twice the rate of consumer goods. Are all those colleges providing twice the education they used to? Or, have they distorted what the people believe about the value received? Are they taking advantage of the government's willingness to guarantee student loans? Are they telling prospective students about lecture-hall class sizes and classes taught by TAs? Or, are they emphasizing the success of a vary select group of its graduates?
    Donít think thereís anything there that even remotely approaches fraud.

  12. #337
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I think people "believe what they believe about the value of higher education" because of direct lies told to them by the education community.

    Since 1980, tuition has increased by well over twice the rate of consumer goods. Are all those colleges providing twice the education they used to? Or, have they distorted what the people believe about the value received? Are they taking advantage of the government's willingness to guarantee student loans? Are they telling prospective students about lecture-hall class sizes and classes taught by TAs? Or, are they emphasizing the success of a vary select group of its graduates?
    Despite what you want to say the value of a education is pretty easy to quantify in the median household income by education level


    https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-by-education/


    Not graduating HS ~27K
    HS $43K
    Associate degree $63K
    Bachelor's Degree $93K


    The increases tax base over the working career of those with a Bachelor's Degree or higher is paid back in spades for the investment we make today.
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  13. #338
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Agreed. I just said that I think fixing K-12 needs to be the top education priority, and college affordability later. I'm not willing to pick up the bill for tuition for kids that aren't ready for the college I'll be paying for.

    I'm also unwilling to pick up that bill if there are no societal pay-backs included. So, you want to be a doctor/lawyer/nurse/teacher/accountant/engineer? Great. We'll pay for your education, but you're going to be a doctor/lawyer/nurse/teacher/accountant/engineer in Bugtussle for a couple years before signing on with that high-paying gig in the big city.

    But, back to the Department of Education. Are they doing anything to resolve either of these problems? Have they ever?

    Would you rather we pick up the bill for the prison stay? Their medicare costs? or their SNAP benefits? or their housing allowance?



    Because those are the societal costs of an under educated population.
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  14. #339
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Would you rather we pick up the bill for the prison stay? Their medicare costs? or their SNAP benefits? or their housing allowance?



    Because those are the societal costs of an under educated population.
    So, it's either a college degree or prison? No middle ground? And, if we provide everyone with a college education, does that mean no more prisons, no more SNAP benefits, and no more housing allowance?

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  15. #340
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    So, it's either a college degree or prison? No middle ground? And, if we provide everyone with a college education, does that mean no more prisons, no more SNAP benefits, and no more housing allowance?
    Nice hyperbole, it's all about percentages and statistics. The rate of incarceration is considerably higher for people with no HS degree than it is for ones with a secondary degree.


    https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ecp.pdf


    Those with out a HS diploma make up ~20% of the general population but ~40% of the prison population. Those with post secondary education make up ~50% of the population but only 12% of the prison population.

    https://trends.collegeboard.org/educ...ion-level-2008


    There is a direct correlation that the lower the education level of an individual, the higher the percentage chance that they are are on one or government provided assistance programs. A higher educated population would not eliminate government assistance but it would go a long way to reducing the need for it for many thus lower the overall cost.
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  16. #341
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Nice hyperbole,
    Wait. You asked if I'd rather pay for everyone's college or their prison stay. That certainly looked to me like an either/or proposition. And, when I pointed out the fallacy of the argument, it's MY hyperbole.

    Fascinating.

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  17. #342
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Wait. You asked if I'd rather pay for everyone's college or their prison stay. That certainly looked to me like an either/or proposition. And, when I pointed out the fallacy of the argument, it's MY hyperbole.

    Fascinating.
    So you are saying there is no correlation between education level and prison rates?


    You are saying education level has no bearing on whether or not some one is more or less likely to be on public assistance?


    And you are saying that education levels have no bearing on one's future earning power?


    I know you love the anecdotal story of Johnny Six Pack Frat Guy on spring break but I'm talking about verifiable statistics on the population of America.


    I know there lies, damn lies, Trump Speak, and Statistics. But in these instances the statistics simply don't lie.


    So yes in the long run it's a choice between investing in the education of all Americans or paying the increased costs that comes from having an under educated population.


    I'd thought someone with a fancy Air Force Academy degree could understand that simple connection without needing a road map but I guess not.
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  18. #343
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    So you are saying there is no correlation between education level and prison rates?


    You are saying education level has no bearing on whether or not some one is more or less likely to be on public assistance?


    And you are saying that education levels have no bearing on one's future earning power?


    I know you love the anecdotal story of Johnny Six Pack Frat Guy on spring break but I'm talking about verifiable statistics on the population of America.


    I know there lies, damn lies, Trump Speak, and Statistics. But in these instances the statistics simply don't lie.


    So yes in the long run it's a choice between investing in the education of all Americans or paying the increased costs that comes from having an under educated population.


    I'd thought someone with a fancy Air Force Academy degree could understand that simple connection without needing a road map but I guess not.
    Ouch. Over the line.

  19. #344
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    So you are saying there is no correlation between education level and prison rates?
    Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that taxpayer-funded college education for all is not the solution to the problem.

    Our high schools are graduating far too many kids who can't read and can't perform basic math functions. That's a significant problem. I don't see "let's send them to school for four additional years" as a solution to that problem. And, I particularly don't like the idea of providing those additional years at no risk (financial or otherwise) to the student.

    As I've stated repeatedly, if you factor in educational standards and a service requirement as a pay-back for taxpayer-funded tuition, I'm good. But, if the proposal is an absolute no-strings-attached free lunch, I'm vehemently opposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3
    Ouch. Over the line.
    Indeed.

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  20. #345

    Re: Education

    I think Maynardís idea of free education with a service commitment is a good one. Right now, there are several loan forgiveness programs that do exactly that, but you have to pay as you go, and they only forgive what is leftover after your service time is completed, which is good if youíre poor or went to a really expensive school. Of course, the current Administration has been sending out smoke signals indicating that they are looking to eliminate at least one of those programs (PSLF).

  21. #346
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey at the Bat View Post
    I think Maynardís idea of free education with a service commitment is a good one. Right now, there are several loan forgiveness programs that do exactly that, but you have to pay as you go, and they only forgive what is leftover after your service time is completed, which is good if youíre poor or went to a really expensive school. Of course, the current Administration has been sending out smoke signals indicating that they are looking to eliminate at least one of those programs (PSLF).
    I do too and have said so several times I believe.
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  22. #347
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that taxpayer-funded college education for all is not the solution to the problem.
    For all? Maybe not. But for those who are actually qualified I think we are better served as nation finding a way to make it happen. I think we fundamentally disagree on this but I could be wrong.



    Our high schools are graduating far too many kids who can't read and can't perform basic math functions. That's a significant problem. I don't see "let's send them to school for four additional years" as a solution to that problem. And, I particularly don't like the idea of providing those additional years at no risk (financial or otherwise) to the student.
    I'm 100% for improving K-12 education. That takse money. Not blindly throwing money at it for the sake of throwing money at, but it does take money to attract better teachers, to build more schools, and to reduce class size. There is no way around that.



    As I've stated repeatedly, if you factor in educational standards and a service requirement as a pay-back for taxpayer-funded tuition, I'm good. But, if the proposal is an absolute no-strings-attached free lunch, I'm vehemently opposed.
    I'm totally OK structuring it on a commitment basis of some sort.



    Indeed.
    If I went over the line I apologize.
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  23. #348
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey at the Bat View Post
    I think Maynardís idea of free education with a service commitment is a good one. Right now, there are several loan forgiveness programs that do exactly that, but you have to pay as you go, and they only forgive what is leftover after your service time is completed, which is good if youíre poor or went to a really expensive school. Of course, the current Administration has been sending out smoke signals indicating that they are looking to eliminate at least one of those programs (PSLF).
    I think it's an okay idea and would support it if it were the way to get it done but I think that an educated populace is it's own reward and society benefits from it enough that it's is not necessary. It also greatly depends on the types of service positions we're talking about. Even if tuition is free, the average student is still going to have debt due to other expenses and having to be underemployed for a significant amount of time can create too big a burden. It also once again puts low income/poc at a distinct disadvantage instead of leveling the playing field.

  24. #349

    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    I think it's an okay idea and would support it if it were the way to get it done but I think that an educated populace is it's own reward and society benefits from it enough that it's is not necessary. It also greatly depends on the types of service positions we're talking about. Even if tuition is free, the average student is still going to have debt due to other expenses and having to be underemployed for a significant amount of time can create too big a burden. It also once again puts low income/poc at a distinct disadvantage instead of leveling the playing field.
    I donít fully understand how it puts low income/POC at a disadvantage.

    If you look at the current PLSF, the requirements are to work in public service, or nonprofit. A lot of those jobs pay perfectly fine if you have a degree. Iíve spent my entire life working in those sectors. I think if you keep the service requirements in those areas, it would greatly benefit a lot of people who would otherwise not go to college at all, or graduate with massive loans.

  25. #350
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Education

    Quote Originally Posted by Casey at the Bat View Post
    I don’t fully understand how it puts low income/POC at a disadvantage.

    If you look at the current PLSF, the requirements are to work in public service, or nonprofit. A lot of those jobs pay perfectly fine if you have a degree. I’ve spent my entire life working in those sectors. I think if you keep the service requirements in those areas, it would greatly benefit a lot of people who would otherwise not go to college at all, or graduate with massive loans.
    That's why I said it depends on the types of service jobs we're talking about. It will have to change dramatically from what it is now to handle the influx of new grads. If the job market is adequate, great. No problem. But if people have to take jobs that may not be on their career tract or in a different field, they will not be getting the experience they need for the next position. Then they will be in their late twenties competing for entry level jobs with new grads that were able to go to college without the service requirement.

    Mostly I just don't find it necessary. It's about what we believe our society should look like.

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