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  1. #51
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjb23 View Post
    Question: If Judge gets to play every day where will him striking out hurt the most, in the #6 spot in the lineup or further down, like 9th spot?

    Personally I think Headley, Gregorius, & Castro filling up the bottom of the order makes it more circular.

    Someone suggested Headley batting 2nd and dropping Ellsbury down - I can also see this as a good option, although I doubt Girardi would consider it.
    If Judge is indeed the power threat he profiles to be, he shouldn't hit any lower than 6th. Heck, Mickey Mantle struck out more than most back in his day and he always hit 3rd or 4th. Not that Judge will ever be Mantle, but hitting him 9th would signal an almost epic fail, IMO.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    IMO, it depends on what else happens in his ABs - if he has a high K rate, but generates power and a reasonable average (say .250), I think the 6 spot makes sense. But, if he is high K with a low 200 average and not enough power, then I send him down to AAA to learn to control that swing away mentality. Unfortunately, he will never be a low K rate batter.

    My gut is that he will make adjustments this season in the same way as he has at every other level. He has always struggled when first arriving, then made adjustments. I hope they have someone in ST working closely with him on this issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    If Judge is indeed the power threat he profiles to be, he shouldn't hit any lower than 6th. Heck, Mickey Mantle struck out more than most back in his day and he always hit 3rd or 4th. Not that Judge will ever be Mantle, but hitting him 9th would signal an almost epic fail, IMO.
    I agree with both of you. If Judge is playing well enough to warrant him being in the lineup every day, then I would think he's hitting for power & average along with striking out, so he shouldn't be hitting lower than 6th. On the other hand Girardi seems to be the type of manager that will put a young hitter in the #9 hole just to put less pressure on the player.
    "Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'" -- Mickey Mantle

  3. #53

    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    IMO, it depends on what else happens in his ABs - if he has a high K rate, but generates power and a reasonable average (say .250), I think the 6 spot makes sense. But, if he is high K with a low 200 average and not enough power, then I send him down to AAA to learn to control that swing away mentality. Unfortunately, he will never be a low K rate batter.

    My gut is that he will make adjustments this season in the same way as he has at every other level. He has always struggled when first arriving, then made adjustments. I hope they have someone in ST working closely with him on this issue.
    He needs to draw more walks as well.

  4. #54
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    He needs to draw more walks as well.
    I think a higher BB rate would be a natural result of his learning to lay off certain pitches.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  5. #55

    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by apalradio View Post
    If Judge is indeed the power threat he profiles to be, he shouldn't hit any lower than 6th. Heck, Mickey Mantle struck out more than most back in his day and he always hit 3rd or 4th. Not that Judge will ever be Mantle, but hitting him 9th would signal an almost epic fail, IMO.
    Mantle also walked a ton, which made him an ideal 3 hitter. He was on base half the time when the cleanup hitter came to bat - except when he had cleared the bases on his own first.

  6. #56
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Mantle also walked a ton, which made him an ideal 3 hitter. He was on base half the time when the cleanup hitter came to bat - except when he had cleared the bases on his own first.
    Yes, which is why strikeouts should not be the determining factor in whether to plant Judge lower than 6th in the lineup. I don't expect him to become the second coming of the Mick, but if he doesn't evolve into a run producer, he probably shouldn't be in the lineup.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  7. #57
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    CheatSheet proposes a lineup that has Judge batting eighth.

    Brett Gardner
    Didi Gregorius
    Gary Sanchez
    Matt Holliday
    Greg Bird
    Starlin Castro
    Chase Headley
    Aaron Judge
    Jacoby Ellsbury

    The Projected New York Yankees lineup for 2017
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  8. #58
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    That's a terrible lineup. Castro and Didi should be 8th and 9th.

  9. #59

    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    CheatSheet proposes a lineup that has Judge batting eighth.

    Brett Gardner
    Didi Gregorius
    Gary Sanchez
    Matt Holliday
    Greg Bird
    Starlin Castro
    Chase Headley
    Aaron Judge
    Jacoby Ellsbury

    The Projected New York Yankees lineup for 2017
    Totally agree with bumping Ellsbury down from the leadoff spot due to his diminishing BA and speed. He's no longer the offensive catalyst he used to be, and I agree that Didi should have a more prominent spot in the lineup, although I'd probably swap him with Bird due to his low OBP.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  10. #60

    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    That's a terrible lineup. Castro and Didi should be 8th and 9th.
    Ellsbury is worse than both, why? so is Gardner other than his OBP.

  11. #61
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ny27xwschamps View Post
    Ellsbury is worse than both, why? so is Gardner other than his OBP.
    Didi can't get on base and Castro is bad.

  12. #62
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    There's nobody I'm rooting for more to have an all star caliber season than Ellsbury (so we can trade him). I think he should start the season in the #2 spot and see if he can get things going.

    If Ellsbury struggles early on and Bird is healthy and productive, #2/4 should be Bird and Holiday one way or the other. It makes sense to get our high OBP players at the top of the lineup. Didi/Castro should be nowhere near the top until they can show the can get on base more.

  13. #63

    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob035 View Post
    There's nobody I'm rooting for more to have an all star caliber season than Ellsbury (so we can trade him). I think he should start the season in the #2 spot and see if he can get things going.

    If Ellsbury struggles early on and Bird is healthy and productive, #2/4 should be Bird and Holiday one way or the other. It makes sense to get our high OBP players at the top of the lineup. Didi/Castro should be nowhere near the top until they can show the can get on base more.
    We're not going to trick anyone into thinking Ellsbury is a good player, even if he wins the MVP

  14. #64
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ny27xwschamps View Post
    We're not going to trick anyone into thinking Ellsbury is a good player, even if he wins the MVP
    Whatever he can do to raise his value helps, right?

    If he even reverts back to his 2013/2014 110 WRC+ self, I'd imagine we could find a taker willing to pay 3.5 years $35 million at the deadline.

  15. #65
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    CheatSheet proposes a lineup that has Judge batting eighth.

    Brett Gardner
    Didi Gregorius
    Gary Sanchez
    Matt Holliday
    Greg Bird
    Starlin Castro
    Chase Headley
    Aaron Judge
    Jacoby Ellsbury

    The Projected New York Yankees lineup for 2017
    Didi does not get on base enough, and does not take enough pitches to bat in the 2 hole. Gardner hardly runs as it is, and if Didi is behind him, he won't even get a chance to try to steal.

  16. #66
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbn007 View Post
    Didi does not get on base enough, and does not take enough pitches to bat in the 2 hole. Gardner hardly runs as it is, and if Didi is behind him, he won't even get a chance to try to steal.
    Agreed. I don't hate the reasoning to bat him before Sanchez so he gets better pitches to hit since he won't walk anyway. But he needs to show he can get on base at a higher clip before moving him that high in the lineup.

    By the end of the season, I hope this is the normal lineup:

    Gardner
    Bird
    Sanchez
    Holliday
    Judge
    Didi
    Headley
    Ellsbury
    Castro

  17. #67

    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    If you're hoping for anything, why not hope that Ellsbury turns into the guy he was for Boston? (not even the 32 HR year) and be an actual lead off hitter (at the very least)

  18. #68
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob035 View Post
    Agreed. I don't hate the reasoning to bat him before Sanchez so he gets better pitches to hit since he won't walk anyway. But he needs to show he can get on base at a higher clip before moving him that high in the lineup.

    By the end of the season, I hope this is the normal lineup:

    Gardner
    Bird
    Sanchez
    Holliday
    Judge
    Didi
    Headley
    Ellsbury
    Castro
    I hope Bird comes back with his power intact, even if it takes him some time to really get going. Since I do think this will happen, I can't bat him that high. Bird to 5th, behind Holliday, Headley to 2nd (decent OBP) and drop Judge and Didi 1 spot. All others stay the same.

  19. #69
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ny27xwschamps View Post
    If you're hoping for anything, why not hope that Ellsbury turns into the guy he was for Boston? (not even the 32 HR year) and be an actual lead off hitter (at the very least)
    Well he did bat .279/.347/.398 in the first half of the season last year, which isn't too far off from his 2013/2014 numbers, so I don't think it's crazy to hope for. If he can just improve on those numbers a bit, say by pulling just a couple more balls over the short porch in RF, he'll be right there.

  20. #70
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbn007 View Post
    I hope Bird comes back with his power intact, even if it takes him some time to really get going. Since I do think this will happen, I can't bat him that high. Bird to 5th, behind Holliday, Headley to 2nd (decent OBP) and drop Judge and Didi 1 spot. All others stay the same.
    I can see that but I have no problem with a bit of power out of the 2 spot. I'm all for getting our best hitters the most AB's.

  21. #71
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by mbn007 View Post
    I hope Bird comes back with his power intact, even if it takes him some time to really get going. Since I do think this will happen, I can't bat him that high. Bird to 5th, behind Holliday, Headley to 2nd (decent OBP) and drop Judge and Didi 1 spot. All others stay the same.
    I like this:

    Gardner
    Headley
    Sanchez
    Holliday
    Bird
    Judge
    Didi
    Castro
    Ellsbury
    "Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'" -- Mickey Mantle

  22. #72

    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob035 View Post
    I can see that but I have no problem with a bit of power out of the 2 spot. I'm all for getting our best hitters the most AB's.
    With the circular lineup created by the DH, that makes perfect sense in the AL. In fact, the old 3-4 hitters should probably be put in the 2-3 slots in today's AL lineups for exactly the reason you give.

  23. #73
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by sjb23 View Post
    I like this:

    Gardner
    Headley
    Sanchez
    Holliday
    Bird
    Judge
    Didi
    Castro
    Ellsbury
    I must admit that I hate the idea of Headley batting #2. He's doesn't do anything to warrant being at the top of a lineup. He's not a catalyst. He doesn't make things happen, or move runners over, or get on base enough let alone hit enough to get more turns than most everyone else in the order. He's a bottom of the lineup guy for me.
    Yankee fan living in Maine.

  24. #74
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    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    I think Headley will be a slightly better on-base threat than Ellsbury, but the advantage in OBP is negated by the decrease in baserunning. If Ellsbury gets off to a slow start, but someone like Headley/Refsnyder/Hicks is getting on a lot, I'd be open to a change. Right now, though, we don't have any real #2 options.

    For me, the real question is where to bat Gary. I think Holliday-Sanchez-Bird as 3-4-5 makes sense.

  25. #75

    Re: Sanchez-Holliday-Bird-Judge = New Middle of Lineup?

    Quote Originally Posted by DaBliz View Post
    I think Headley will be a slightly better on-base threat than Ellsbury, but the advantage in OBP is negated by the decrease in baserunning. If Ellsbury gets off to a slow start, but someone like Headley/Refsnyder/Hicks is getting on a lot, I'd be open to a change. Right now, though, we don't have any real #2 options.

    For me, the real question is where to bat Gary. I think Holliday-Sanchez-Bird as 3-4-5 makes sense.
    Headley and Ellsbury are the same age. Here are their OBP numbers:

    Headley 2016 = .331, career = .343
    Ellsbury 2016 = .330, career = .342

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