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  1. #76

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    It's not about who do you sit - it's about who shows that they are ready to grab the brass ring. I would not hand him the ring, but he certainly needs to get a look see.

    IMO, Severino is penciled into the #4 spot behind Tanaka, Pineda & CC (whatever the order) - that role is Seve's to lose. If he does not turn it around and solve his SP issues, then, given what he has shown as a RP, he moves to the pen or he is sent to SWB to work on the role - either way opening another rotation slot.

    We will see Warren (albeit likely in the pen to start the season), Mitchell, Cessa, Green, Enns and probably others battling for the #5 spot. I think Enns is likely a loser here, at least in the beginning of the season, so he goes back to AAA to stay stretched out and work on whatever issues are identified - he will almost certainly be needed at some point during the season.

    I do agree that NOW is the time for Enns to either defecate or get off the pot - if he can't make it to the ML at 26 for the Yankees with their SP needs, then I don't see keeping him on the 40-man just because he has options.
    Why in the world would you hand a spot in the rotation to Pineda for the 3rd year in a row. We've now seen that his bad year in 2015 wasn't a fluke.

    And if Severino doesn't show up n February/March with a reliable 3rd pitch that he can use regularly to get batters out, what's to be gained by throwing him to the wolves again?

    And what are you saying with regard to Enns time to sh!t or get off the pot? What has he not done that he should have done to make it to the major leagues. It's up to the Yankees to give him the opportunity at this point. He's made the proper progression and has produced at every level.

  2. #77

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by DaBliz View Post
    I agree with all of that. I don't have Enns winning the battle for the last spot in the rotation, but I wouldn't object to him getting it with a great ST performance. I also think that it's pretty likely that he'll get a shot at some point even if he doesn't earn it right out of the gate. It's pretty typical for a club to use 8-12 starters over the course of a season (we had 9 guys get 5 or more starts last season). I'd have him pegged as my #8 right now--behind Severino, Green, Cessa, and Mitchell--with a window that's closing rapidly as Adams/Kap/Sheffield hit the higher levels of the minor leagues. All that said, if he shows improvement in the walks, he could easily jump ahead of Green, Cessa, and Mitchell. I'm just not as sold by his minor league numbers by some people around here.
    This issue with the walks has to be put to bed. Here's a sample of major league pitchers with a similar history of walks rate:

    Tom Glavine
    Andy Pettitte
    Jack Morris
    Randy Johnson
    Kevin Brown
    Dave Stieb
    David Cone
    Nolan Ryan
    Al Leiter
    Matt Cain
    Orlando Hernandez

  3. #78
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    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    It's not about who do you sit - it's about who shows that they are ready to grab the brass ring. I would not hand him the ring, but he certainly needs to get a look see.

    IMO, Severino is penciled into the #4 spot behind Tanaka, Pineda & CC (whatever the order) - that role is Seve's to lose. If he does not turn it around and solve his SP issues, then, given what he has shown as a RP, he moves to the pen or he is sent to SWB to work on the role - either way opening another rotation slot.

    We will see Warren (albeit likely in the pen to start the season), Mitchell, Cessa, Green, Enns and probably others battling for the #5 spot. I think Enns is likely a loser here, at least in the beginning of the season, so he goes back to AAA to stay stretched out and work on whatever issues are identified - he will almost certainly be needed at some point during the season.

    I do agree that NOW is the time for Enns to either defecate or get off the pot - if he can't make it to the ML at 26 for the Yankees with their SP needs, then I don't see keeping him on the 40-man just because he has options.
    Severino hasn't earned anything. If he can't earn the 4 in ST, he needs to be sent back to AAA as the 5 spot isn't used much the first few weeks anyway.

  4. #79
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    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Why in the world would you hand a spot in the rotation to Pineda for the 3rd year in a row. We've now seen that his bad year in 2015 wasn't a fluke.
    What, pray tell, is our alternative? I would love to be having an argument about how do you slot our starters with names like Kershaw, Sales, Keuchel, Bumgardner and Kluber, but unfortunately none of these players are on the Yankee roster.

    So - GIVEN THE STARTING PITCHERS THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE ON THE ROSTER, I have Pineda as my number 3 starter in this rotation at this moment in time.

    And if Severino doesn't show up n February/March with a reliable 3rd pitch that he can use regularly to get batters out, what's to be gained by throwing him to the wolves again?
    Basically, we are in agreement here - either Seve shows that he has a reliable third pitch or he needs to move into a different role. He was successful in 2015 throwing his change 14% of the time - for some reason in 2016, he lost confidence. He either finds that confidence again or, IMO, he slides into the BP making it even more dominant late. In fact, I believe I have stated elsewhere that, if the Yankees were to trade Betances, I would strongly consider moving Severino into his role.

    And what are you saying with regard to Enns time to sh!t or get off the pot? What has he not done that he should have done to make it to the major leagues. It's up to the Yankees to give him the opportunity at this point. He's made the proper progression and has produced at every level.
    You completely missed my point - it has to do with age.

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    if he can't make it to the ML at 26 for the Yankees with their SP needs, then I don't see keeping him on the 40-man just because he has options.
    Enns made it onto the 40-man roster this year. He needs to grab that brass ring and run with it.

    This coming season will be his age 26 season - age 26 is old for AAA. His competition for the 5th starter role are players who are either the same age or younger, but who have already been in the majors and there are others breathing down his neck.

    40-man roster spots are going to become valuable in the next few seasons, as the other prospects in this farm system begin knocking on the door and, I suspect, knocking with such force that the door falls off the hinges. So, he could very well end up getting DFA'd if he does not give the Yankees a solid reason to believe that keeping him on the 40-man makes a lot of sense.

    I honestly hope that he steps up in spring training and makes the Yankees' decision easy.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  5. #80
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    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    Severino hasn't earned anything. If he can't earn the 4 in ST, he needs to be sent back to AAA as the 5 spot isn't used much the first few weeks anyway.
    If he can't grab the #4 slot, I think the Yankees should look at moving him into a RP role, similar to what they did with Betances in his final option year.

    I think that Severino would be dominant in a 7th inning role.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  6. #81

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    What, pray tell, is our alternative? I would love to be having an argument about how do you slot our starters with names like Kershaw, Sales, Keuchel, Bumgardner and Kluber, but unfortunately none of these players are on the Yankee roster.

    So - GIVEN THE STARTING PITCHERS THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE ON THE ROSTER, I have Pineda as my number 3 starter in this rotation at this moment in time.
    How many bad seasons does a pitcher need to put up before he's a failed starter? In my book, Pineda is a failed starter. So, I'd trade him to someone who hopes that a change in scenery might do him some good or I'd move I'm to the pen where he won't have to see batters a second time or pitch more than. An inning or two.

    The Yankees are. In rebuild mode. They need to put pitchers into the rotation who have hopes for a future - Green, Cessa, Mitchell, Enns, Montgomery, etc.

    Basically, we are in agreement here - either Seve shows that he has a reliable third pitch or he needs to move into a different role. He was successful in 2015 throwing his change 14% of the time - for some reason in 2016, he lost confidence. He either finds that confidence again or, IMO, he slides into the BP making it even more dominant late. In fact, I believe I have stated elsewhere that, if the Yankees were to trade Betances, I would strongly consider moving Severino into his role.



    You completely missed my point - it has to do with age.



    Enns made it onto the 40-man roster this year. He needs to grab that brass ring and run with it.

    This coming season will be his age 26 season - age 26 is old for AAA. His competition for the 5th starter role are players who are either the same age or younger, but who have already been in the majors and there are others breathing down his neck.

    40-man roster spots are going to become valuable in the next few seasons, as the other prospects in this farm system begin knocking on the door and, I suspect, knocking with such force that the door falls off the hinges. So, he could very well end up getting DFA'd if he does not give the Yankees a solid reason to believe that keeping him on the 40-man makes a lot of sense.

    I honestly hope that he steps up in spring training and makes the Yankees' decision easy.
    I get your point about age and normally I'd agree with you, but Enns is different. He isn't a minor league journeyman who suddenly emerged out of nowhere and had a big year at age 25. Quite the opposite. He's been superb at every level at which he's pitched.

    So why is he turning 26 and just knocking on the door of the major leagues? We know the answer to that.

    1. Late start due to a college career. Not the first to do that.
    2. Tommy John surgery in 2014 disrupted his progress.

    Given those facts, why would we blindly look at his age and dismiss him as a minor league journeyman?

  7. #82

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    If he can't grab the #4 slot, I think the Yankees should look at moving him into a RP role, similar to what they did with Betances in his final option year.

    I think that Severino would be dominant in a 7th inning role.
    That would be crazy. He'll be barely 23 years old when spring training starts. Making such a decision would be way too premature. There are Hall of Fame pitchers who had the same kind of struggles early in their careers. You simply don't give up on that kind of talent so soon.

  8. #83

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

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  9. #84

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by DaBliz View Post
    I agree with all of that. I don't have Enns winning the battle for the last spot in the rotation, but I wouldn't object to him getting it with a great ST performance. I also think that it's pretty likely that he'll get a shot at some point even if he doesn't earn it right out of the gate. It's pretty typical for a club to use 8-12 starters over the course of a season (we had 9 guys get 5 or more starts last season). I'd have him pegged as my #8 right now--behind Severino, Green, Cessa, and Mitchell--with a window that's closing rapidly as Adams/Kap/Sheffield hit the higher levels of the minor leagues. All that said, if he shows improvement in the walks, he could easily jump ahead of Green, Cessa, and Mitchell. I'm just not as sold by his minor league numbers by some people around here.
    I don't agree, and I'm still wondering what Severino, Green, Cessa, and Mitchell have done to put them as preferred options over Enns.
    Last edited by Bill Marsh; 01-09-17 at 08:42 AM.

  10. #85

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Bump - Last time

  11. #86

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    What, pray tell, is our alternative? I would love to be having an argument about how do you slot our starters with names like Kershaw, Sales, Keuchel, Bumgardner and Kluber, but unfortunately none of these players are on the Yankee roster.

    So - GIVEN THE STARTING PITCHERS THAT WE CURRENTLY HAVE ON THE ROSTER, I have Pineda as my number 3 starter in this rotation at this moment in time.



    Basically, we are in agreement here - either Seve shows that he has a reliable third pitch or he needs to move into a different role. He was successful in 2015 throwing his change 14% of the time - for some reason in 2016, he lost confidence. He either finds that confidence again or, IMO, he slides into the BP making it even more dominant late. In fact, I believe I have stated elsewhere that, if the Yankees were to trade Betances, I would strongly consider moving Severino into his role.



    You completely missed my point - it has to do with age.



    Enns made it onto the 40-man roster this year. He needs to grab that brass ring and run with it.

    This coming season will be his age 26 season - age 26 is old for AAA. His competition for the 5th starter role are players who are either the same age or younger, but who have already been in the majors and there are others breathing down his neck.

    40-man roster spots are going to become valuable in the next few seasons, as the other prospects in this farm system begin knocking on the door and, I suspect, knocking with such force that the door falls off the hinges. So, he could very well end up getting DFA'd if he does not give the Yankees a solid reason to believe that keeping him on the 40-man makes a lot of sense.

    I honestly hope that he steps up in spring training and makes the Yankees' decision easy.
    Agree.

  12. #87
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    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    How many bad seasons does a pitcher need to put up before he's a failed starter? In my book, Pineda is a failed starter. So, I'd trade him to someone who hopes that a change in scenery might do him some good or I'd move I'm to the pen where he won't have to see batters a second time or pitch more than. An inning or two.

    The Yankees are. In rebuild mode. They need to put pitchers into the rotation who have hopes for a future - Green, Cessa, Mitchell, Enns, Montgomery, etc.
    If someone is asking the Yankees for him, I have no issue with trading him. I also understand your point about potentially moving him to the pen.

    I just don't see it happening - do you honestly believe that the Yankees would go into a season with Tanaka, CC and three rookies in the rotation? I just don't see it.

    For the record - I want to see the younger players and I want to see them succeed. But, given the reports that the Yankees are still looking for starting pitching help, I have to conclude that they don't feel that comfortable about the rookies taking the bit as mid-staff starters.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    I get your point about age and normally I'd agree with you, but Enns is different. He isn't a minor league journeyman who suddenly emerged out of nowhere and had a big year at age 25. Quite the opposite. He's been superb at every level at which he's pitched.

    So why is he turning 26 and just knocking on the door of the major leagues? We know the answer to that.

    1. Late start due to a college career. Not the first to do that.
    2. Tommy John surgery in 2014 disrupted his progress.

    Given those facts, why would we blindly look at his age and dismiss him as a minor league journeyman?
    I am not dismissing him as a mL journeyman - I am saying that now is the time to show something.

    You argue he got a late start due to a college career - I argue that, had he been signed out of high school, those three years would have been spent in the minors. In other words, he is now eight years removed from high school and, had he signed out of high school, probably would now be out of options. Getting a late start in professional ball does not, in and of itself, mean that I am willing to wait longer for him to develop.

    Having said that, I would love to see him succeed - however, we are facing a 40-man roster crunch after this season (see RAB article @ 2017 Rule 5 Draft Possibilities) that will require some decisions on the Yankees part. The Yankees can't afford to waste a 40-man roster slot on a to be 27 (in the 2018 season) pitcher who hasn't shown he can stick at the ML level (assuming he does not show something positive in 2017). If he were 22, okay, I could see keeping him, but not at 27.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  13. #88

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by longtimeyankeefan View Post
    If someone is asking the Yankees for him, I have no issue with trading him. I also understand your point about potentially moving him to the pen.

    I just don't see it happening - do you honestly believe that the Yankees would go into a season with Tanaka, CC and three rookies in the rotation? I just don't see it.

    For the record - I want to see the younger players and I want to see them succeed. But, given the reports that the Yankees are still looking for starting pitching help, I have to conclude that they don't feel that comfortable about the rookies taking the bit as mid-staff starters.
    If they feel that way, then they shouldn't have stockpiled them. In a rebuilding year, moving 3 of them into the rotation is exactly what they should be doing. There are plenty of others behind them to replace anyone who doesn't cut it.

    I am not dismissing him as a mL journeyman - I am saying that now is the time to show something.
    I agree with that. I would also like to point out that he already has shown something. In fact, he's done so at every minor league stop he's made. I would like to see them now give him the chance to succeed at the major league level.

    You argue he got a late start due to a college career - I argue that, had he been signed out of high school, those three years would have been spent in the minors. In other words, he is now eight years removed from high school and, had he signed out of high school, probably would now be out of options. Getting a late start in professional ball does not, in and of itself, mean that I am willing to wait longer for him to develop.
    You don't have to wait for him. He's been getting it done right before your eyes. You seem to be ignoring that point. You're also ignoring his 2014 Tommy John Surgery which derailed his progress. After surgery and rehab, he finally got back on track last year, moving up to AA/AAA, and showed everything a team would like to seefrom a young pitcher's results.

    Having said that, I would love to see him succeed - however, we are facing a 40-man roster crunch after this season (see RAB article @ 2017 Rule 5 Draft Possibilities) that will require some decisions on the Yankees part. The Yankees can't afford to waste a 40-man roster slot on a to be 27 (in the 2018 season) pitcher who hasn't shown he can stick at the ML level (assuming he does not show something positive in 2017). If he were 22, okay, I could see keeping him, but not at 27.
    I agree that now is his time. I think the fact that they put him on the 40-man means the Yankees see it that way too. Now let's seethe Yankees give him a full shot. If they don't, he'll be the next. Quintana, moved to another team where he'll succeed.

    I would add that the roster crunch also means that they shouldn't be wasting any more time on Pineda either, who is already 28 this month. Find a role in which he can contribute or move him. Enns deserves a shot; Pineda has already had his.

  14. #89
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    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    ...

    I would add that the roster crunch also means that they shouldn't be wasting any more time on Pineda either, who is already 28 this month. Find a role in which he can contribute or move him. Enns deserves a shot; Pineda has already had his.
    I feel the same way you do about Pineda and have little interest in seeing him pinstripes after '17, unless things change significantly.

    But there's a chance he can pitch up to his reasonable potential (getting his Adderal perscription filled for his 2 strike counts). And if so, there might be a decent demand for him at the trade deadline, netting us a nice prospect.
    Trade Ellsbury. Keep Gardner.

  15. #90
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    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    The whole reason I started this thread is because IMO there's a real need for a LH starter in the rotation. I don't think anyone else thinks it's important. After Sabathia leaves at the end of the season the void becomes even bigger.

    Enns & Montgomery are the closest lefties to being ready for the leagues and can also handle a 150+IP workload in 2017.

    I also think the Yanks need to decide if these two deserve roster spots over the next couple of seasons, since the 40-man will become harder and harder to manage.

    If the club is going to fill the 4th & 5th spots with youngsters, then I think all the RHers can compete for the 5th/6th spots.
    "Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'" -- Mickey Mantle

  16. #91

    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by sjb23 View Post
    The whole reason I started this thread is because IMO there's a real need for a LH starter in the rotation. I don't think anyone else thinks it's important. After Sabathia leaves at the end of the season the void becomes even bigger.

    Enns & Montgomery are the closest lefties to being ready for the leagues and can also handle a 150+IP workload in 2017.

    I also think the Yanks need to decide if these two deserve roster spots over the next couple of seasons, since the 40-man will become harder and harder to manage.

    If the club is going to fill the 4th & 5th spots with youngsters, then I think all the RHers can compete for the 5th/6th spots.
    Agree. We've seen Yankee Stadium eat up certain RH pitchers (Hughes for one). All the more reason to give Enns a spot, giving them a second lefty besides CC. And give Montgomery a long look.

    Looking down the road, Cortes, Clarkin, and Sheffield all show promise.

  17. #92
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    Re: Dietrich Enns vs. Jordan Montgomery For 5th Spot

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Agree. We've seen Yankee Stadium eat up certain RH pitchers (Hughes for one). All the more reason to give Enns a spot, giving them a second lefty besides CC. And give Montgomery a long look.

    Looking down the road, Cortes, Clarkin, and Sheffield all show promise.
    It would be great if 2 of these 5 guys could have a future here with the Yanks. I understand they wouldn't be top-of-the-rotation guys but they would definitely fill a need for a few years and cost very little.

    They have 6 RHers (Severino, Kaprielian, Abreu, Tate, Acevedo & Adams) to fill 2 other spots. Then they could just focus on obtaining an ace to head the staff. They'd be able to afford an expensive one, also, considering the money they'd be saving on the other 4 starters.
    "Somebody once asked me if I ever went up to the plate trying to hit a home run. I said, 'Sure, every time.'" -- Mickey Mantle

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