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  1. #226
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    Not to mention, like, the *reach* of the two ceremonies are a bit different. Maynerd speaking to a room and Streep having access to millions of eyeballs change the stakes a bit.
    Obviously.


    Brandon Victor Dixon spoke directly to the VP Elect after Hamilton. And, his message was about the peoples' concerns, and contained a request for certain values they hoped the administration would embrace.


    We, sir — we — are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights. We truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us.

    But Streep's speech didn't implore a view of the future. She told a story about how her heart was broken with Trump's treatment of Kovaleski. And while Trump's characterization of Kovaleski was (dare I say it) deplorable, it had nothing to do with Streep, the DeMille Award, or the millions of people watching.


    And, when she concluded with


    And this instinct to humiliate, when it’s modeled by someone in the public platform, by someone powerful, it filters down into everybody’s life,...
    ...wasn't she doing the same thing? Using her public platform to humiliate? [Yes, I understand that she was deriding Trump for an obnoxious act, while he was tastelessly making fun of Kovaleski for something beyond his control. She was still doing exactly what she was decrying.]


    If you're frightened about what a Trump Administration portends, write letters, contact your representatives, take action. Her speech "reached" a lot of people. But, what did it accomplish? Again, I don't question the truthfulness of her remarks, and I will defend her right to make them. I just question how and why an awards ceremony is the appropriate venue.

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  2. #227

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    If the rest of the country is talking about Streep's speech as much as Maynerd, I'd say mission accomplished.

  3. #228

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Obviously.


    Brandon Victor Dixon spoke directly to the VP Elect after Hamilton. And, his message was about the peoples' concerns, and contained a request for certain values they hoped the administration would embrace.





    But Streep's speech didn't implore a view of the future. She told a story about how her heart was broken with Trump's treatment of Kovaleski. And while Trump's characterization of Kovaleski was (dare I say it) deplorable, it had nothing to do with Streep, the DeMille Award, or the millions of people watching.


    And, when she concluded with



    ...wasn't she doing the same thing? Using her public platform to humiliate? [Yes, I understand that she was deriding Trump for an obnoxious act, while he was tastelessly making fun of Kovaleski for something beyond his control. She was still doing exactly what she was decrying.]


    If you're frightened about what a Trump Administration portends, write letters, contact your representatives, take action. Her speech "reached" a lot of people. But, what did it accomplish? Again, I don't question the truthfulness of her remarks, and I will defend her right to make them. I just question how and why an awards ceremony is the appropriate venue.

    She was asking for empathy. Trump made fun of a disabled person.

  4. #229

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Obviously.


    Brandon Victor Dixon spoke directly to the VP Elect after Hamilton. And, his message was about the peoples' concerns, and contained a request for certain values they hoped the administration would embrace.





    But Streep's speech didn't implore a view of the future. She told a story about how her heart was broken with Trump's treatment of Kovaleski. And while Trump's characterization of Kovaleski was (dare I say it) deplorable, it had nothing to do with Streep, the DeMille Award, or the millions of people watching.


    And, when she concluded with



    ...wasn't she doing the same thing? Using her public platform to humiliate? [Yes, I understand that she was deriding Trump for an obnoxious act, while he was tastelessly making fun of Kovaleski for something beyond his control. She was still doing exactly what she was decrying.]


    If you're frightened about what a Trump Administration portends, write letters, contact your representatives, take action. Her speech "reached" a lot of people. But, what did it accomplish? Again, I don't question the truthfulness of her remarks, and I will defend her right to make them. I just question how and why an awards ceremony is the appropriate venue.
    You said it yourself - her speech reached a lot of people. People who agree with her applaud her. People who support Trump bash her. But I agree, write letters and lots of them to your Congress members. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The SILENT Majority that voted for Clinton will accomplish nothing if silent.

  5. #230

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    She was asking for empathy. Trump made fun of a disabled person.
    Yeah, there's no comparison.

  6. #231

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    So Trump's version of avoiding conflicts of interest is to not avoid them at all nor provide even the appearance of avoiding them.

  7. #232
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    She was asking for empathy. Trump made fun of a disabled person.
    when she starts talking, i was concerned where it was going. i knew she was gonna say something but she picked her topic(s) very well and aimed them even more precisely.
    Bring tea for the Tillerman; Steak for the son; Wine for the woman
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  8. #233

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    So Trump's version of avoiding conflicts of interest is to not avoid them at all nor provide even the appearance of avoiding them.
    And, of course, we can believe that The Donald will not be discussing his businesses with his kids.................................

  9. #234

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by bertram02 View Post
    And, of course, we can believe that The Donald will not be discussing his businesses with his kids.................................
    Wasn't he supposed to set up a blind trust?

    There's a joke there.

  10. #235

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by butterflies View Post
    Wasn't he supposed to set up a blind trust?

    There's a joke there.
    The blind trust issue went away as far as Trump was concerned when his lawyers told him that it was impossible for the President to be charged with a business conflict of interest.

  11. #236
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by bertram02 View Post
    The blind trust issue went away as far as Trump was concerned when his lawyers told him that it was impossible for the President to be charged with a business conflict of interest.
    You mean his lawyers who work for Russia's "Law Firm of the Year"?

    http://fortune.com/2017/01/11/donald...-russia-award/

  12. #237

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by RhodyYanksFan View Post
    You mean his lawyers who work for Russia's "Law Firm of the Year"?

    http://fortune.com/2017/01/11/donald...-russia-award/
    What's interesting now is that the cabinet he's chosen that want to get confirmed are now siding against him. Honestly? Or expedience? Once confirmed and in place who and what will they be. I dread the next 4 years.

  13. #238
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by bertram02 View Post
    The blind trust issue went away as far as Trump was concerned when his lawyers told him that it was impossible for the President to be charged with a business conflict of interest.
    I have to take Trump's side a little on this issue. Yes, he is exempt from the conflict-of-interest statute. Sure, Presidents have routinely established blind trusts for their financial assets. It also didn't cost them much. Few Presidents have had a personally run business. One who did was Jimmy Carter and his peanut farm. What did Jimmy do? Handed it over to his mother, Lillian, and brother, Billy. So there is precedent. (Yes, I know, the Rs appointed a special prosecutor to look for conflicts and misconduct. What they found was Billy: http://www.inquisitr.com/3796484/pre...s-of-interest/)

    The others mainly had portfolios of liquid assets. It is relatively simple to put these into a true blind trust, but it doesn't really mean conflict is eliminated. If somebody was 60% into Apple or Exxon, it is unlikely the fiduciary would suddenly liquidate the holding. So the conflict, even if imaginary, might well continue to exist.

    The fact remains, the man was elected, and the voters who elected him knew he had the business. I don't think he should be forced to divest it just to satisfy those who didn't vote for him. This falls into the category of things that, if the electorate doesn't like how it turns out, they get to vote him out. I am virtually certain they will, but for other reasons.

    I also agree with his take on the emoluments clause. As long as these are payments of market rate for goods and services, and they are not services rendered personally by the President, I don't think they are violating the spirit or the letter of the clause. By the way, no one mentions there is also a domestic emoluments clause. If foreign governments are taboo, so are all the state governments. State employees spend a lot of time visiting DC and my old office building at 1100 Penn, now Trump's hotel, is ideally located for them. Is providing a room at the NYS per diem going to influence anything?

    Let's spend our energy attacking Trump for stupid policy and not waste time on the Trump equivalent of a peanut farm. It won't go anywhere and his supporters don't care, only his opponents do.

    The one thing he needs to respect is the GSA lease on 1100 Penn. That can be done by transferring beneficial ownership to the adult kids.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  14. #239

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    I have to take Trump's side a little on this issue. Yes, he is exempt from the conflict-of-interest statute. Sure, Presidents have routinely established blind trusts for their financial assets. It also didn't cost them much. Few Presidents have had a personally run business. One who did was Jimmy Carter and his peanut farm. What did Jimmy do? Handed it over to his mother, Lillian, and brother, Billy. So there is precedent. (Yes, I know, the Rs appointed a special prosecutor to look for conflicts and misconduct. What they found was Billy: http://www.inquisitr.com/3796484/pre...s-of-interest/)

    The others mainly had portfolios of liquid assets. It is relatively simple to put these into a true blind trust, but it doesn't really mean conflict is eliminated. If somebody was 60% into Apple or Exxon, it is unlikely the fiduciary would suddenly liquidate the holding. So the conflict, even if imaginary, might well continue to exist.

    The fact remains, the man was elected, and the voters who elected him knew he had the business. I don't think he should be forced to divest it just to satisfy those who didn't vote for him. This falls into the category of things that, if the electorate doesn't like how it turns out, they get to vote him out. I am virtually certain they will, but for other reasons.

    I also agree with his take on the emoluments clause. As long as these are payments of market rate for goods and services, and they are not services rendered personally by the President, I don't think they are violating the spirit or the letter of the clause. By the way, no one mentions there is also a domestic emoluments clause. If foreign governments are taboo, so are all the state governments. State employees spend a lot of time visiting DC and my old office building at 1100 Penn, now Trump's hotel, is ideally located for them. Is providing a room at the NYS per diem going to influence anything?

    Let's spend our energy attacking Trump for stupid policy and not waste time on the Trump equivalent of a peanut farm. It won't go anywhere and his supporters don't care, only his opponents do.

    The one thing he needs to respect is the GSA lease on 1100 Penn. That can be done by transferring beneficial ownership to the adult kids.

    Trump needs to divest...period! Nobody forced him to run for the presidency. He knew full well what was expected of him in doing so. It's bad enough that he did not release his taxes. Those returns could have answered, BEFORE the election, some of the questions being asked now regarding the dossier info. Trump is 70 years old, not 40. He needs to separate himself from any questions of conflict of interest.

  15. #240
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by bertram02 View Post
    Trump needs to divest...period! Nobody forced him to run for the presidency. He knew full well what was expected of him in doing so. It's bad enough that he did not release his taxes. Those returns could have answered, BEFORE the election, some of the questions being asked now regarding the dossier info. Trump is 70 years old, not 40. He needs to separate himself from any questions of conflict of interest.
    Where is it carved in stone he has to divest? It's just not.

    After all, remember the next billionaire elected may be a liberal Democrat with whom you agree....
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  16. #241
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    Where is it carved in stone he has to divest? It's just not.

    After all, remember the next billionaire elected may be a liberal Democrat with whom you agree....
    It's a question of ethics and making certain the leader of the free world doesn't find himself in a compromising position, or you know, sell America as a brand for his own profit.

    I mean, hadn't the Protestant Reformation done away with the selling of indulgences?

  17. #242
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    It's a question of ethics and making certain the leader of the free world doesn't find himself in a compromising position, or you know, sell America as a brand for his own profit.

    I mean, hadn't the Protestant Reformation done away with the selling of indulgences?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...t-of-interest/

    The ethics are not at issue here. What you suggest is wrong. There is a choice of remedy. You can can opt for prevention and obligate all Presidents to divest themselves of all participation in the economy, but you do so at the cost of excluding a relevant pool of talented individuals who might be the leader this country needs. Trump is not that guy, but the next one might be.

    Or you can solve the problem after the fact, IF it happens, by failure to reelect or by impeachment. Arguing for that in no way challenges the stance that such self-dealing is wrong. Stop with the overblown self-righteous pronouncements. In a way, mandating total divestment is as unfair as banning all Muslims because they might be terrorists.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  18. #243
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...t-of-interest/

    The ethics are not at issue here. What you suggest is wrong. There is a choice of remedy. You can can opt for prevention and obligate all Presidents to divest themselves of all participation in the economy, but you do so at the cost of excluding a relevant pool of talented individuals who might be the leader this country needs. Trump is not that guy, but the next one might be.

    Or you can solve the problem after the fact, IF it happens, by failure to reelect or by impeachment. Arguing for that in no way challenges the stance that such self-dealing is wrong. Stop with the overblown self-righteous pronouncements. In a way, mandating total divestment is as unfair as banning all Muslims because they might be terrorists.
    So we'll just sit back and wait until a terrorist group or foreign actor bombs a Trump holding someplace. Eh. Sounds good. Im sure we'll all be better for it in the end.

  19. #244
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    So we'll just sit back and wait until a terrorist group or foreign actor bombs a Trump holding someplace. Eh. Sounds good. Im sure we'll all be better for it in the end.
    If they want to bomb a US target, they will. Ask anyone who who has worked for Citibank or McDonald's or other US symbol overseas. Both those mentioned have been bombed more than once. I certainly knew my company was a target while I was overseas. There is no lack of US-linked targets. Further, his divesting won't change what the terrorists do in the slightest.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  20. #245

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    I don't think he should be forced to divest it just to satisfy those who didn't vote for him
    That isn't why he should divest, nor has that been presented as an argument for any president to do so. He needs to divest so as to avoid both in appearance and actuality ethical landmines in which he's leveraging his office in the best interests of his interests and not the country.

    Incidentally, if the argument is that a president is only responsible to those who voted for him, that's news to everyone.

  21. #246
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    That isn't why he should divest, nor has that been presented as an argument for any president to do so. He needs to divest so as to avoid both in appearance and actuality ethical landmines in which he's leveraging his office in the best interests of his interests and not the country.

    Incidentally, if the argument is that a president is only responsible to those who voted for him, that's news to everyone.
    I didn't say that. Still, it is not a legal requirement, and it is only a need to the extent people say it is. My point is those who voted for him aren't saying it. Sure it might be desirable, but it is not a need in any objective sense. The country knew he had those investments, and he never promised to divest them. If he chooses not to, we have to live with it. What happened to the standard that behavior is permissible if it does not result in indictment you repeated so many times? If Congress determines that a President needs to divest his corporate interests, they should pass a law. They haven't, and until they do the strongest words that can be used are 'undesirable','risky', etc. I'd even agree with those. You can't say 'need' 'must' etc. If you do, cite a foundation.
    "Deep to left! Yastrzemski will not get it! It's a home run! A three-run homer by Bucky Dent! And the Yankees now lead by a score of 3-2!" - New York Yankees announcer Bill White (October 2, 1978)

  22. #247

    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    I didn't say that.
    Sure you did:
    I don't think he should be forced to divest it just to satisfy those who didn't vote for him
    And then you repeated it:
    Still, it is not a legal requirement, and it is only a need to the extent people say it is. My point is those who voted for him aren't saying it. Sure it might be desirable, but it is not a need in any objective sense
    .

    Generally speaking, it's probably not a good idea to repeat the thing you claim you're not saying. Just saying.

    And the argument makes even less sense when you insist since there's no law suggesting he needs to divest, he shouldn't regardless of who wants him to. You're saying both the will of his voters should be the deciding influence but then again no it isn't.

    You're kind of all over the place on that one.

    No, there is no law suggesting he has to divest. Except for the Emoluments Clause, which is there precisely to protect us from someone like Donald Trump.

  23. #248
    Let's go Rangers! RhodyYanksFan's Avatar
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Want a detailed and logical explanation about the ethics violations that will occur next Friday? Listen to Thursday's "Pod Save America" particularly the 2nd half where they interview Norm Eisen (White House lead ethics council).

    Listen here.

    https://getcrookedmedia.com/here-hav...323#.d8nh9u9td

  24. #249
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump

    Quote Originally Posted by theDurk View Post
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...t-of-interest/

    The ethics are not at issue here. What you suggest is wrong. There is a choice of remedy. You can can opt for prevention and obligate all Presidents to divest themselves of all participation in the economy, but you do so at the cost of excluding a relevant pool of talented individuals who might be the leader this country needs. Trump is not that guy, but the next one might be.

    Or you can solve the problem after the fact, IF it happens, by failure to reelect or by impeachment. Arguing for that in no way challenges the stance that such self-dealing is wrong. Stop with the overblown self-righteous pronouncements. In a way, mandating total divestment is as unfair as banning all Muslims because they might be terrorists.

    But the ethics are at issue. Both sides are being distracted by the things that aren't really the issue, or don't have to be. No, Trump isn't legally obligated to divest. He's not subject to conflict-of-interest laws (though he is to a lot of others). We'll probably find out if his interpretations of the nepotism laws and the Emoluments clause will stand up in court. He's not required to release his tax returns, but they might give us a clue to how deeply involved with Russian money he is; as it stands, we may never know. If he wants to be on the phone with his sons every night arranging business, we probably won't ever know that, either, and unless there's a pretty obvious quid pro quo, it's arguably not illegal. Some of his Cabinet appointments may have Byzantine connections throughout the domestic and foreign business worlds, but if you even ask that question, Jason Chaffetz will hold a hearing. And so on.


    Take each one of those things and at most you have a question, and possibly an entirely sound response. Take them all together and you have a casual indifference to ethics, and ethical appearances, that's deeply disturbing. In every single case there's a justification for why he doesn't have to bother with ethics. Is that any way to run a presidency?
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  25. #250
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    Re: Express Your Hope Or Trepidations About Our Future With Trump



    Canadian Papers across the nation..........and before the Right wing runs around with hair on fire with scissors .......it`s about his Presidential composure.........not blowing up the world......

    "Happy Wife.........Happy Life" - unknown

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