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Thread: 2017 hof

  1. #1

    2017 hof

    The BBWAA Hall of Fame ballot was announced on Monday with Manny Ramirez, Vladimir Guerrero and Ivan Rodriguez headlining the 19 new additions.

    Vlad easily gets in I think. Manny definitely linked to PEDs here and there, so could be in doubt. Unsure if Pudge was but by the end of his career he got less pudgey and much slimmer.

  2. #2

    Re: 2017 hof

    My ballot would probably be:

    Tim Raines
    Vlad Guerrero
    Manny Ramirez
    Ivan Rodriguez
    Barry Bonds
    Roger Clemens
    Mike Mussina
    Jeff Bagwell
    Larry Walker
    Edgar Martinez

  3. #3
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Full slate of 34 here

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2017.shtml

    From the returning folks I'd vote
    Bagwell
    Raines
    Hoffman
    Martinez
    Wagner

    From the new folks
    Guerrerro
    Posada (this may or may not be a misguided vote)

    And if they are breaking the Roid barrier
    Bonds
    Clemens
    Sosa
    Rodriguez
    Ramirez
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  4. #4
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Bonds needs to get in. Screw the haters.

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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Bonds needs to get in. Screw the haters.
    Bond and/or Clemens will eventually break the Roid ceiling. When it happens several others will quickly get voted in if they haven't fallen off the ballot by then.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  6. #6
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 hof

    My ballot is the same as it is every year, and for the same reason:


    Marvin Miller.


    Because it's not a Hall of Fame if Marvin Miller isn't in it.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  7. #7

    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by pleasepassthesoup View Post
    My ballot would probably be:

    Tim Raines
    Vlad Guerrero
    Manny Ramirez
    Ivan Rodriguez
    Barry Bonds
    Roger Clemens
    Mike Mussina
    Jeff Bagwell
    Larry Walker
    Edgar Martinez
    My ballot is pretty close to yours. I would substitute:

    Jeff Kent
    Gary Sheffield
    Sammy Sosa

    for:

    Mike Mussina
    Edgar Martinez
    Larry Walker

    Otherwise we're in agreement.

    I actually hate to leave Moose, Edgar, and Larry off, but their are only 10 spots on the ballot. All 3 of those guys are worthy of the Hall of Fame. This log jam has been created by the writers refusal to admit deserving candidates in recent years.

  8. #8
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    My ballot is the same as it is every year, and for the same reason:


    Marvin Miller.


    Because it's not a Hall of Fame if Marvin Miller isn't in it.
    Do the the writers vote on nonplayers or is that some other group?
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  9. #9
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Do the the writers vote on nonplayers or is that some other group?
    Probably not. Then I'd leave my ballot blank until Miller was elected.


    Oh, and in reference to an earlier post: I would never, ever, ever, ever, ever vote for Gary Sheffield for the HOF.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  10. #10
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Bond and/or Clemens will eventually break the Roid ceiling. When it happens several others will quickly get voted in if they haven't fallen off the ballot by then.
    I hope you're right. This wall they have up is absurd. We need to get over it. Many of these guys deserve to have their names in the HOF and we have too many self righteous assholes in charge of the process.

  11. #11
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 hof

    I also am fully behind Moose getting in. He was a pleasure to watch. I don't think I fully appreciated his skills until the last half of his contract here. But looking back he was way more impressive than I realized.

    It's about time Edgar got in also. This is another ridiculous wall they have up for literally no good reason.

  12. #12
    Social Justice Wieners ArodEra's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I also am fully behind Moose getting in. He was a pleasure to watch. I don't think I fully appreciated his skills until the last half of his contract here. But looking back he was way more impressive than I realized.

    It's about time Edgar got in also. This is another ridiculous wall they have up for literally no good reason.
    Agree with all of this.



  13. #13
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    Agree with all of this.
    Where do you stand on the PED thing? Are you in favor of Bonds and Clemens getting in?

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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    My ballot is the same as it is every year, and for the same reason:


    Marvin Miller.


    Because it's not a Hall of Fame if Marvin Miller isn't in it.

    I agree with you wholeheartedly....
    When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it."

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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I hope you're right. This wall they have up is absurd. We need to get over it. Many of these guys deserve to have their names in the HOF and we have too many self righteous assholes in charge of the process.
    The flip side is many people that could have made a good living playing baseball were not able to do so because they refused to use steroods and fell behind the assholes who cheated and did use them.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  16. #16

    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    The flip side is many people that could have made a good living playing baseball were not able to do so because they refused to use steroods and fell behind the assholes who cheated and did use them.
    How do we know that? AFAIK, everyone could have been using. Selectively eliminating certain players is the writers just putting their heads in the sand and pretending that there were only a few dozen bad apples.

    That also requires a lot of assumptions about the benefits of steroids, something else for which there is very little evidence. It also ignores reports of a juiced ball in that era and what it's role might have been in pumping up the offense.

    The role of the writers is not to punish people? It's to identify who the biggest stars were. MLB had the responsibility of determining who was eligible to play and who was not. They decided to join with the writers to celebrate McGwire and Sosa when the brought the game back from the dead after the strike. Now the writers, who were definitely part of that conspiracy to look the other way, hypocritically and sanctimoniously decide to punish certain players.

    It's ridiculous. We all know who the biggest stars were. Whatever they used, there was no rule against it. I don't want to see Jeter kept out by claims that he was a roiled.

  17. #17
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    That also requires a lot of assumptions about the benefits of steroids, something else for which there is very little evidence. It also ignores reports of a juiced ball in that era and what it's role might have been in pumping up the offense.
    I think the evidence is as plain as day.

    Juiced ball? LOL if they want setriod level offense for the fans and it was just the juiced ball they never would have "unjuiced the ball" then.

    As for the rest of your post you are entitled to your opinion and a lot of folks share your opinion, just not enough of the BBWoA agree with you right now.

    I honestly don't know which is correct and it won't cost me sleep one way of the other.

    I do feel that non-roided players of the ERA got the shaft in awards voting back then that likely cost them earnings potential. And I strong feel whether it can be proven or not that many aspiring AAAA players were not MLB players because they chose not to roid up and many folks that continued to draw and MLB paycheck would likely have been out of baseball if they weren't roided up.

    Again I can't prove this for sure but there is more than enough anecdotal information and stories from past players that form my opinion on this.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  18. #18
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 hof

    I agree it's not their job to punish people. It's their job to select the best of the best for every generation of players.

    The wrong people are employed to do this job anyway. Until that changes it will continue to be flawed.

  19. #19

    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I think the evidence is as plain as day.

    Juiced ball? LOL if they want setriod level offense for the fans and it was just the juiced ball they never would have "unjuiced the ball" then.

    As for the rest of your post you are entitled to your opinion and a lot of folks share your opinion, just not enough of the BBWoA agree with you right now.

    I honestly don't know which is correct and it won't cost me sleep one way of the other.

    I do feel that non-roided players of the ERA got the shaft in awards voting back then that likely cost them earnings potential. And I strong feel whether it can be proven or not that many aspiring AAAA players were not MLB players because they chose not to roid up and many folks that continued to draw and MLB paycheck would likely have been out of baseball if they weren't roided up.

    Again I can't prove this for sure but there is more than enough anecdotal information and stories from past players that form my opinion on this.
    Who says they didn't unjuice the ball?

    They ignored the whole problem until the public outcry was so great that they had no choice but to act. They were years behind all the other sports. They decided to hang the blame around the necks of the players and took no responsibility for their role in it.

    In order for their "blame the players" strategy to work and for their testing program to have the appearance of being effective, there had to be a decrease in offense. U juicing the ball was the perfect way to achieve that.

    The funny thing is that the testing program has had very limited success in catching any raiders. However, there have been a number of articles indicating that it has been very effective in eliminating amphetamines, which are very easy to detect with the testing. Amphetamine use has been recognized as extremely widespread and as having been in use for a very long time. There are experts who attribute the decrease in offense more to the elimination of amphetamines than to any effect on steroid use.

  20. #20
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Marsh View Post
    Who says they didn't unjuice the ball?

    They ignored the whole problem until the public outcry was so great that they had no choice but to act. They were years behind all the other sports. They decided to hang the blame around the necks of the players and took no responsibility for their role in it.

    In order for their "blame the players" strategy to work and for their testing program to have the appearance of being effective, there had to be a decrease in offense. U juicing the ball was the perfect way to achieve that.

    The funny thing is that the testing program has had very limited success in catching any raiders. However, there have been a number of articles indicating that it has been very effective in eliminating amphetamines, which are very easy to detect with the testing. Amphetamine use has been recognized as extremely widespread and as having been in use for a very long time. There are experts who attribute the decrease in offense more to the elimination of amphetamines than to any effect on steroid use.
    Because testing the CoR of a baseball is pretty easy to do.

    Yes baseball turned a blind eye to its problems and players got payed very well, owner reaped big benefits.

    Now if a few players are punished for that. so be it. Again I won't be losing any sleep over it.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  21. #21

    Re: 2017 hof

    Bagwell's getting in this year, and Raines and Hoffman have a good chance to join him. Pudge should get in, but might have to wait a year. I think Vlad will have to wait at least a year. I don't think anyone else on the ballot will ever get in (though noted twitter aficionado Schilling is inching up), unless there's a sea change in voters' attitude towards PED's.

  22. #22

    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    I agree it's not their job to punish people. It's their job to select the best of the best for every generation of players.

    The wrong people are employed to do this job anyway. Until that changes it will continue to be flawed.
    Who are the right people?
    Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. ~ Dale Carnegie

  23. #23
    Do not vex me mortal Hitman23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fredgmuggs View Post
    Who are the right people?
    the Russians.

  24. #24
    Social Justice Wieners ArodEra's Avatar
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman23 View Post
    Where do you stand on the PED thing? Are you in favor of Bonds and Clemens getting in?
    The PED users who shouldn't be allowed in the HoF: In my best Donald Trump voice, Only David Ortiz!

    I'm guessing that a large percentage of players used some form of PED during the steroid era and I really don't have a problem with them (or anyone), and their getting into the HoF. That includes Bonds, Clemens, etc. I'm sure a lot of them are already in. Who cares.



  25. #25
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    Re: 2017 hof

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    The PED users who shouldn't be allowed in the HoF: In my best Donald Trump voice, Only David Ortiz!

    I'm guessing that a large percentage of players used some form of PED during the steroid era and I really don't have a problem with them (or anyone), and their getting into the HoF. That includes Bonds, Clemens, etc. I'm sure a lot of them are already in. Who cares.


    Totally agree with you' I have seen credible sources that estimate over 70% of the players in that era used PED's. Management knew about it (how could they not?) and even encouraged it.


    Andy
    Yogi is a National Treasure. Let's put him in a National Hall of Fame. The man has no peers.

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