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  1. #4201
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    I've said this before, there is no way to defend giving Ellsbury 7/155 and drawing the line with Cano at 7/175. I said it three years ago, I'll say it again now, and I will continue to say it. Cano was under appreciated by many Yankee fans and Yankee management. Heck I would have given Cano 7/200 before I gave Ellsbury 7/155. Just plain stupid.
    Agree on all points.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  2. #4202

    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nnysiny View Post
    Letting Cano sign a ridiculous deal elsewhere was fine, but not having a replacement for Prado is what really hurt in the long-term.
    Your Prado obsession is comical. No, what really hurt was spending $153M of that Cano money on Jacoby Ellsbury, which most of us said was an epic blunder from the jump.

  3. #4203
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    7/200 is still $40M short of the other offer he had. No amount of corner bodegas was gonna keep Cano's ass planted in the Bronx at that point.

  4. #4204
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    Bryan Hoch ‏@BryanHoch 2m2 minutes ago
    The Yankees told Luis Severino that he may have become too muscular last year. Suggested he work on flexibility this winter.
    I'm trying to see this statistically. He threw his FB a little harder than last season, threw his slider a little slower, changeup a little harder.

    Would it mainly affect his stamina? If you look his inning splits he got lit up in latter innings and as he threw more pitches (although pitch counts are skewed due to his dominating relief outings).

    EDIT: Those tables came out horrible. Here's link.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...2016&t=p#innng

  5. #4205

    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    I'm trying to see this statistically. He threw his FB a little harder than last season, threw his slider a little slower, changeup a little harder.

    Would it mainly affect his stamina? If you look his inning splits he got lit up in latter innings and as he threw more pitches (although pitch counts are skewed due to his dominating relief outings).

    EDIT: Those tables came out horrible. Here's link.
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...2016&t=p#innng
    Really small sample sizes, but he did better with more rest. Could he have been working out too hard between starts, not letting his arm recover fully?

  6. #4206
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Gusto View Post
    Really small sample sizes, but he did better with more rest. Could he have been working out too hard between starts, not letting his arm recover fully?
    Ah true. Didn't realize how small they were. Nevermind.

    I'm bored. I blame Cashman.

  7. #4207
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    I love how Cashman discusses trading Gardner so flippantly. It's even become a proper noun of sorts. A Gardner Trade™.

  8. #4208
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    I hope we keep Gardner a home grown guy that wants to be here and signed a team friendly deal to stay. If we get blown away with an offer then trade but not till then. My problem with the Cano ordeal is that I wish we would have traded him at the deadline for a haul of prospects or a great replacement when it looked like he was not going to be easy to sign.

  9. #4209
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    Put me in the camp calling BS on this one.

    He hired a new agent who was going to make a name on his first contract.
    Not the issue. They drew a hard line with Cano at 7/175 and then turned around and signed an inferior player to 7/155. That chain of events is indefensible,

  10. #4210
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by teknetic View Post
    7/200 is still $40M short of the other offer he had. No amount of corner bodegas was gonna keep Cano's ass planted in the Bronx at that point.
    You don't know that and neither do I. Again, had they signed neither player I could have lived with it, but to draw a hard line with Cano at 7/175 and then sign an inferior player to 7/155 is indefensible.

  11. #4211
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    I love how Cashman discusses trading Gardner so flippantly. It's even become a proper noun of sorts. A Gardner Trade™.
    I agree with this. I have no issue with Cashman privately investigating trade options for Gardner. But Gardner (or any player for that matter) deserves more respect that the GM of the team openly discussing how he would like to trade him. Classless on Cashman's part.

  12. #4212
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    I agree with this. I have no issue with Cashman privately investigating trade options for Gardner. But Gardner (or any player for that matter) deserves more respect that the GM of the team openly discussing how he would like to trade him. Classless on Cashman's part.
    It's definitely a bit messed up. I've never seen a GM discuss a player on his team that's under contract for two more seasons so openly.

    "Unless I trade Gardy," Cashman said, referring to left fielder Brett Gardner.
    Brian Cashman said he wouldn't be afraid to deal Brett Gardner within the AL East.

  13. #4213
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    You don't know that and neither do I. Again, had they signed neither player I could have lived with it, but to draw a hard line with Cano at 7/175 and then sign an inferior player to 7/155 is indefensible.
    That has always stuck in my craw as well.
    David Ortiz tested positive for performance enhancing drugs in 2003.

  14. #4214
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    It's definitely a bit messed up. I've never seen a GM discuss a player on his team that's under contract for two more seasons so openly.

    And a guy who is basically a good citizen, a team player, et al. It does look weird.

  15. #4215
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by mbn007 View Post
    And a guy who is basically a good citizen, a team player, et al. It does look weird.
    Agree, this makes Cashman look very small.

  16. #4216

    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by NelsonMuntz View Post
    That has always stuck in my craw as well.
    Me too.

    I have a feeling that both his body and his bat are going to hold up well. Jeter led the league in hits and batted .316 when he was 38. It took a devastating injury to reduce him to what he was at the end. ARod came back to hit really well in 2015 when he was 39/40. Beltran recaptured his hitting stroke when he was 38 and 39. I think we'll see the same from Cano after he's passed 37. He doesn't appear to have the kind of body that will break down.

    Everyone was shocked by the numbers in the negotiations. Asking for $300,000 and getting 240 were all unheard of. However, we've already seen those numbers passed. By the time the later years of that contract roll around and salaries have escalated, the numbers won't seem so outlandish - especially when you think how the Yankees could have marketed his chase for 3000 hits and other milestones into big pay days.

  17. #4217
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    It's definitely a bit messed up. I've never seen a GM discuss a player on his team that's under contract for two more seasons so openly.
    Quote Originally Posted by mbn007 View Post
    And a guy who is basically a good citizen, a team player, et al. It does look weird.
    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    Agree, this makes Cashman look very small.
    I am curious - how do you expect Cashman to respond to direct questions regarding Gardner and the trade market? Are you expecting him to simply answer "No Comment" to every Gardner trade question?

    Isn't the same thing basically happening with McCutcheon? It has been very clear that Pittsburgh is trying to trade him.

    Here is a direct quote attributed to Neal Huntington from a Post-Gazette article:

    “There’s a lot of the narrative we don’t focus on because we can’t control it,” Huntington said Wednesday. “I would imagine it’s frustrating for Andrew to have read as if it’s a matter of when, and not if [he’ll be traded]. I guess I’ve probably led to that, because we’ve talked about how he has two years left under contract.

    “There is an end point for every player. There was an end point for Derek Jeter, it just happened that he chose to stay in New York. More often than not the end point comes well before the player retires in our game, in this day and age. Even in our game right now, there’s just a handful of guys that are elite players that are playing or will play the entirety of their career in one spot.”
    http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/p...s/201612080140

    I suspect I could find similar quotes from the White Sox front office on their activities this off-season.

    I will grant you that Cashman appears to be much more open about the situation, but has he come out to say that he wants to get rid of Gardner via trade? I haven't seen such a quote that I can recall.
    Forgive me for taking the Contrarian view

  18. #4218
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    http://m.yankees.mlb.com/news/articl...e-flexibility/

    "There's a lot of theories," Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said. "He came in physically built stronger. He hit the weights pretty strongly. Did that affect him one way or the other? I know that through [pitching coach] Larry [Rothschild] and our strength coach, we told him this winter that he needed to stay more flexible and stay off the bulk."

    A major factor in Severino's performance dip was that he appeared to lose the feel for his changeup, reverting to using mostly a fastball-slider combination. The Yanks pushed him to throw the changeup more when he returned to Triple-A Scranton/Wilkes-Barre in late May, but he acknowledged that his confidence in the pitch was shaken.

    "No one knows why one particular year he woke up and lost the feel for that changeup," Cashman said. "So we'll see. Even with all of those theories, he showed up in Spring Training, and there was one game against the Tampa Bay Rays -- he looked like a Cy Young Award candidate.

    "All I know is we're certainly hopeful he stays in the rotation for his career, because that's what we need."
    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  19. #4219
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    "No one knows why one particular year he woke up and lost the feel for that changeup," Cashman said. "So we'll see. Even with all of those theories, he showed up in Spring Training, and there was one game against the Tampa Bay Rays -- he looked like a Cy Young Award candidate.
    Cashman is such a useless weasle bastar*. Figure it out!!! You think he just made up that decision on his own? If so, you should be making sure your coaches stay on top of him. On top of all your players. If a coach told him to stop throwing it, they should be fired. It's systematic failures like this that give me very little confidence we'll develop anything of worth.

  20. #4220

    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said Tuesday the club hasn't discussed an extension with Masahiro Tanaka.
    Tanaka is about to enter the fourth year of his seven-year, $155 million contract with the Yankees, but he has the ability to opt out and test free agency after 2017. The club intends to wait things out for now. Tanaka, 28, owns a 3.12 ERA (132 ERA+) over his first 75 starts in the majors.

  21. #4221
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Cashman is such a useless weasle bastar*. Figure it out!!! You think he just made up that decision on his own? If so, you should be making sure your coaches stay on top of him. On top of all your players. If a coach told him to stop throwing it, they should be fired. It's systematic failures like this that give me very little confidence we'll develop anything of worth.
    You seem take the face value of throw away media sessions very seriously. We'd never be able to verify, but I'd put up whatever you wanted against you in a wager of whether or not the Yankees have been trying like hell to figure out WTF is going on in Severino's head, or in his feel, or even just where the hell the problem actually is.

    In general it seems like you feel like there is a way to fix everything - that if something fails or doesn't work out there is an accountable person along the way that did something wrong - and that if you want something you can just go out and do it.

    I think player evaluation is one of the most inexact sciences out there, even with all the technology and advanced analysis we have access to in this day and age. If anyone had it figured out at any meaningful level it would be blatantly obvious, as they'd be running roughshod over the rest of the league.
    Jaret Wright's 2005 Cy Young Season: 20-3, 3.04 ERA

  22. #4222

    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Art Vanderlay View Post
    Not the issue. They drew a hard line with Cano at 7/175 and then turned around and signed an inferior player to 7/155. That chain of events is indefensible,
    My response WAS this issue - whether Cano would have signed for 8/200 or not.

    Adding their hardline and Ellsbury is a completely different discussion.
    Hideki Matsui is capable of anything

  23. #4223
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    You seem take the face value of throw away media sessions very seriously. We'd never be able to verify, but I'd put up whatever you wanted against you in a wager of whether or not the Yankees have been trying like hell to figure out WTF is going on in Severino's head, or in his feel, or even just where the hell the problem actually is.
    I think they are now that it's blown up in their face. However, I would highly highly doubt they are doing any due diligence on how this occurred. This isn't an organization that screams accountability.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snatch Catch View Post
    In general it seems like you feel like there is a way to fix everything - that if something fails or doesn't work out there is an accountable person along the way that did something wrong - and that if you want something you can just go out and do it.

    I think player evaluation is one of the most inexact sciences out there, even with all the technology and advanced analysis we have access to in this day and age. If anyone had it figured out at any meaningful level it would be blatantly obvious, as they'd be running roughshod over the rest of the league.
    I'm not looking for an exact science. I'd like an emphasis (ala Rays) on throwing a changeup. Esepcially for a guy that exhibited a PLUS changeup in the minors. They sent him down to the minors for a 2nd time to work on his changeup (1st time I heard no mention of that), let him make 2 starts in the minors (1 2IP outing in relief), then called him back up to pitch in relief in the majors. This is a VERY inconsistent approach. Were they expecting him to throw his 3rd best pitch in the majors? The Yankee organization consistently do things to hinder prospect development instead of allowing prospects to grow in a fostering environment.

    There were some scouts that considered his changeup his BEST offspeed.

    His best offspeed offering was an 83-85 MPH changeup, which featured good arm side run and was sold extremely well. Opposing hitters had a very difficult time distinguishing it from the fastball and he was able to generate frequent swings and misses and weak contact with the pitch. One minor concern is a bit of inconsistency, as he slowed his arm down and tried to place the pitch a few times, but this is not unusual for a young pitcher and not frequent enough to cause significant concern. This is an out pitch that will be very effective at the Major League level. Grade: 60/65
    http://www.minorleagueball.com/2014/...-luis-severino

    See video from 15':
    http://www.milb.com/multimedia/vpp.j...08583&sid=milb

  24. #4224

    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    Would love to see Gardner moved to Cleveland for Yandy Diaz, but would probably require a Brantley setback for it to happen. I think Gardner is probably an upgrade over Chisenhall, who could be pushed to 4th OFer, but it's not enough of a difference to justify a trade.

    That said, Gardner's contract is reasonable, he's signed through the current window for competing, and he seems like the kind of guy they appreciate in that clubhouse.

    Even if we had to trade a prospect back along with Gardner, it would help to deal from our pile of guys that are about to need protection or who are somewhat blocked in exchange for a guy that can get on the ML roster and allow us to move Headley.

    Or maybe a prospect for prospect swap would work.


  25. #4225
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    Re: 2016 Winter Hot Stove Thread

    @DOBrienAJC #Braves traded Mallex Smith and Shae Simmons Mariners for minor league LHPs Luiz Gohara and Thomas Burrows.

    .....

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