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  1. #26
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    The OP was only talking about franchise signings, not the entire league.
    i'm fully aware of that, i mentioned pavano as a signing that imo was right up there. but I also think it's prudent to point out plenty of teams make awful deals.

  2. #27

    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Watching him play makes me wanna commit ritual sudoku.
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

  3. #28
    Super Moderator matt2351's Avatar
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by smckdwn989 View Post
    i'm fully aware of that, i mentioned pavano as a signing that imo was right up there. but I also think it's prudent to point out plenty of teams make awful deals.
    Carl Pavano - 4 years, $39,500,000 ($9,875,000/year)
    Jacoby Ellsbury - 7 years, $153,000,000 ($21,857,143/year)

  4. #29

    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by matt2351 View Post
    Carl Pavano - 4 years, $39,500,000 ($9,875,000/year)
    Jacoby Ellsbury - 7 years, $153,000,000 ($21,857,143/year)
    Lol exactly. Even with inflation, those deals aren't even close. The Ellsbury contract is just on another planet of absurdity.

  5. #30
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by matt2351 View Post
    Carl Pavano - 4 years, $39,500,000 ($9,875,000/year)
    Jacoby Ellsbury - 7 years, $153,000,000 ($21,857,143/year)
    Quote Originally Posted by IndianaYankFan
    Lol exactly. Even with inflation, those deals aren't even close. The Ellsbury contract is just on another planet of absurdity.
    Disagree. The Pavano deal was MUCH worse.


    For the $39.5M we "invested" in Pavano, we got a sum total of 26 appearances, and he averaged just 35 Innings per season under that contract.


    As much as I dislike Ellsbury's deal, he's at least showed up for 274 games, and even gave us one year with an OPS+ greater than 100.


    And yes, I understand that comparing the two deals is like saying Ted Bundy wasn't as bad as Jeffrey Dahmer. But I have to think that Pavano's performance under his contract with the Yankees was orders of magnitude worse than Ellsbury's.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  6. #31
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Disagree. The Pavano deal was MUCH worse.


    For the $39.5M we "invested" in Pavano, we got a sum total of 26 appearances, and he averaged just 35 Innings per season under that contract.


    As much as I dislike Ellsbury's deal, he's at least showed up for 274 games, and even gave us one year with an OPS+ greater than 100.


    And yes, I understand that comparing the two deals is like saying Ted Bundy wasn't as bad as Jeffrey Dahmer. But I have to think that Pavano's performance under his contract with the Yankees was orders of magnitude worse than Ellsbury's.
    And while early returns have sucked, book isn't closed on Ellsbury yet.

  7. #32
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Disagree. The Pavano deal was MUCH worse.


    For the $39.5M we "invested" in Pavano, we got a sum total of 26 appearances, and he averaged just 35 Innings per season under that contract.


    As much as I dislike Ellsbury's deal, he's at least showed up for 274 games, and even gave us one year with an OPS+ greater than 100.


    And yes, I understand that comparing the two deals is like saying Ted Bundy wasn't as bad as Jeffrey Dahmer. But I have to think that Pavano's performance under his contract with the Yankees was orders of magnitude worse than Ellsbury's.

    I think paying an everyday player 153million and over 7 years and having him play like garbage trumps a 4/39 million dollar deal man.

    Guy is almost a platoon player at this point...a leadoff man who can't break a .300 OBP. This deal is horrific and I believe effects us more than the Pavano deal.
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  8. #33
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Eddie Lee Whitson was a pretty awful one too when you factor in the more modest economics of the time. Not just a bad pitcher here but kind of a morale drain on the team, too, they took to pitching him only in road games because he got so upset about being booed at Yankee Stadium. I guess kind of a half a Pavano (who didn't pitch anywhere). Ended up in a barroom brawl with Billy Martin, not that this was hard to do as Billy was saucing it up pretty good at the time.

    Kenny Rogers was bad too, though at least they salvaged Brosius out of that one.

  9. #34

    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Yet Cashman and an ordinary manager are untouchables?
    Beltran is performing but how long before he wears down or gets hurt. His over all contract is nothing to brag about. The Mets gave him good money for what? He's not a good contract he's far from an elite right fielder.
    Tex, A-Rod, Beltran, CC and Cashman need to retire.............
    Chase, Elsburied, Gardner, DiDi and Castro need a hitting coach who defines their strike zone for HITTING the ball. They need to identify pitches and start improving their "On Base Percentages"!

    Gerardi tells them they didn't need to be at the spring training facilities early?????? Really?
    Gerardi needs a new team, maybe a college team, he doesn't seem to be able to energize or inspirer anyone. Don't tell me that grown millionaires don't need to be inspired these guys need to be set on fire!!!

    When you get a day off..................translation you pitch hit and play 2 innings at the end!
    Bull pen use......................like Torre did he'll run them into the ground.
    Starting pitchers are babied and begged to go 5!!!! Tanaka is a laughing joke of a contract.
    All that money to a 5 inning pitcher?

    I was born a Yankee fan and will die one but when my team is helping to kill me I get pissed off........at THEM! Grow some....................beards if it will help their play! HA!
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  10. #35
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    That steal wakes up this team.

  11. #36
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by snapple View Post
    Watching him play makes me wanna commit ritual sudoku.
    I find this puzzling ... His numbers aren't good enough for you?

  12. #37

    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by -tz View Post
    I find this puzzling ... His numbers aren't good enough for you?

    . Love the puns!
    Thank you for making me calm today, Brett Gardner

  13. #38
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    we can kill him all we want, but he's starting to show some life the last few games and that steal of home was incredible.

    as for comparing the pavano deal to ellsbury, we can agree to disagree.

  14. #39
    Released Outright awy's Avatar
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    it's a bit far to blame the yankees financial belt tightening on ellsbury's contract, but it surely had an impact.

  15. #40
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    No one is going to give him props for stealing home? Tough crowd.
    http://vimel.ru/e6748

  16. #41
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    No one is going to give him props for stealing home? Tough crowd.
    this is the non performance crowd... lol

  17. #42
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    We were just waiting for someone to start the "2016 Jacoby Ellsbury PERFORMANCE thread."

  18. #43
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by -tz View Post
    We were just waiting for someone to start the "2016 Jacoby Ellsbury PERFORMANCE thread."
    Yup

  19. #44
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    No one is going to give him props for stealing home? Tough crowd.
    Quote Originally Posted by kan_t View Post
    That steal wakes up this team.
    I did.

  20. #45
    All Aboard the Cole Train!! Zimmer's Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Donnybaseball72 View Post
    No one is going to give him props for stealing home? Tough crowd.
    Yesterday's performance is what most of us envisioned when he was signed - he'll need to display that type of aggressive style on a consistent basis before I feel 100% comfortable that his early-sign struggles are now a thing of the past.

    It's his defensive lapses that worry me most - just doesn't seem to be mentally into the game at times, and I wonder if he's been dealing with personal off-field issues that we're not aware of, because his issues don't appear to be physical.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  21. #46
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Disagree. The Pavano deal was MUCH worse.


    For the $39.5M we "invested" in Pavano, we got a sum total of 26 appearances, and he averaged just 35 Innings per season under that contract.


    As much as I dislike Ellsbury's deal, he's at least showed up for 274 games, and even gave us one year with an OPS+ greater than 100.


    And yes, I understand that comparing the two deals is like saying Ted Bundy wasn't as bad as Jeffrey Dahmer. But I have to think that Pavano's performance under his contract with the Yankees was orders of magnitude worse than Ellsbury's.
    The Pavano deal was much worse in terms of how often he actually played, on the other hand, it didn't impact roster and payroll flexibility nearly as badly as Ellsbury's deal will...
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  22. #47

    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    I don't think we'll know if the Pavano deal was worse until after we see how Ells' last 5 seasons turn out. It's probably safe to say the last year will cost $5 million for a buy out.
    It won't be long before we can all forget Cano and realize that Castro can be everything Robinson was for us. - Retired_Doc

  23. #48
    All Aboard the Cole Train!! Zimmer's Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    I don't think we'll know if the Pavano deal was worse until after we see how Ells' last 5 seasons turn out. It's probably safe to say the last year will cost $5 million for a buy out.
    I'm pretty sure we don't have to wait 5 seasons to determine whether Ellsbury is worth $22 million a year.

    Pavano, and Don Gullett, were among the very worst free agent signings in Yankee history in terms of ROI, but those deals didn't hamper the Yankees financial flexibility like Ellsbury's deal does. I don't see how that's questionable.
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  24. #49
    All Aboard the Cole Train!! Zimmer's Helmet's Avatar
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    Ellsbury's splits are strange to say the least.
    As a LH hitter, he's struggling badly against RHP (.593 OPS) while his production versus lefties is pretty much consistent with his career norms:

    http://www.baseball-reference.com/pl...&year=2016&t=b
    "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821)

  25. #50
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: 2016 Jacoby Ellsbury (Non) Performance Thread

    BUMP. Was asked to move this discussion to an Ellsbury thread.

    Anyone know if my math is right? Made this post in another thread... would the league allow a trade like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by False1
    They'd likely save >$2MM in premiums though if they cut him. So closer to $13MM. That doesn't change the math. Again, I don't think they will either but for a team rich in cash they absolutely should.

    Just look at this roster right now. An extra 40 man spot can mean the difference between having roster room for a Voit, an Urshela, a Tauchman, a Ford - all examples of "fringe" guys just within the last ~12 months. Kahnle was originally a rule V loss by the Yankees. And of course Ford and Cortes Jr. were selected yet fortunately returned last rule V. And then you have situations like Luis Torrens, who the Padres stole and is now a 23 year old catcher at AA for them with a 142 wRC+. Caleb Smith was at one point a rule V loss by the Yankees. Tyler Webb. George Kontos. Ivan Nova.

    Even with trades like JPF the other day and likely several more in the near future, they are going to have a roster crunch that will cost them talent they need for 2020 and/or beyond. A team like the Yankees should not let that happen. They are flush with cash, and need to be flush with talent at all levels to compete. They should not be letting guys of the caliber above be going to competitors when they can avoid it.

    Besides, what I'm really saying is that they should try to get creative and trade his contract. If we go with your $15MM number, they would only need to include $6MM to the acquiring team to make it a complete wash. (My assumption is the $5MM buyout can't be covered by insurance, and is a sunk cost regardless so it doesn't come into play here). At a 32.5% lux tax penalty (I think this is the level they'll be at next year) they'd save almost $7MM in luxury tax penalties that would not transfer to the acquiring team (assuming they're under the limit). If I've got the math right, the Yankees could send Jacoby Ellsbury to a team under the limit and without a 40 man challenge along with $7MM. The Yankees would get basically a free roster spot, and the acquiring team would tie up a roster spot but get $1MM in their pockets.

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