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Thread: Election 2016

  1. #36701

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by ZYanksRule View Post
    Irregardless of whether the media is right or wrong (and I think they largely do the best they can and try to get everything right. They're not perfect, but they're honestly trying their hardest), it is deeply, deeply concerning to me how Trump continues to attempt to delegitimize any media outlet that disagrees with him.

    It's not even about fighting the media outlet -- it's about him trying to claim that every media outlet which disagrees with him is somehow not a legitimate outlet for criticism. And that goes for more than just the media -- he does it with everyone who disagrees. That's really scary, and he needs to stop doing that.
    I think...I hope...this is going to eventually bite him hard. You cannot be at war with your own institutions before they open the drain and shove you into it. I think the recent intelligence leak was a shot across his bow. It doesn't take a massive uprising, just a few well placed sources working with a media that knows he hates them all.

    It is time for the media to get in the game though. At today's press conference, they should have all insisted he respond to CNN. Also, that he stacked the room with lackeys to clap and cheer should have been taken as an insult to them.

  2. #36702
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Election 2016

    Ordinarily I'd probably agree, at least in part, with Maynerd and NerfBall (I think it was) on the issue of tax returns. In general, they're not as big a deal as people make them out to be.

    In this case, though, there are a couple of things that are different:
    1. It would really be nice if once, just once, in any area, Trump deliberately lived up to ethical norms just because they're there. It would be really nice if he showed even a glimmer of understanding that ethics matter, and the appearance of ethics matters, both for him and his administration. In that context, releasing the tax returns would be a little gesture in the right direction. Istead we get the same "under audit" lie.

    2. It would actually be important to know about Trump's debt, more than his income. How much does owe, and to whom? How about the Russians, say? There may well be nothing. Show us.
    Last edited by JL25and3; 01-12-17 at 09:56 AM.

  3. #36703
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    I think...I hope...this is going to eventually bite him hard. You cannot be at war with your own institutions before they open the drain and shove you into it. I think the recent intelligence leak was a shot across his bow. It doesn't take a massive uprising, just a few well placed sources working with a media that knows he hates them all.

    It is time for the media to get in the game though. At today's press conference, they should have all insisted he respond to CNN. Also, that he stacked the room with lackeys to clap and cheer should have been taken as an insult to them.
    More likely, I think, will be a mass exodus of experienced, qualified, formerly respected career experts. They don't need to take this, and they'll go. The agencies will be a long time recovering.

  4. #36704
    Pinpoint False1's Avatar
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    No, I really don't. You would have picked up on that if you actually read the words you're quoting:





    Correct. Which is why I know huge population centers such as NY or CA, where there is an extraordinary mix of education, ethnicities, gender identities, and industries are more likely to produce open thinking vs small enclaves in sparsely populated parts of the country.




    Feel free to jump into the pool first. You're the one making the man-bites-dog argument that the center of the country is more diverse in thought and ideology than the coasts.



    To prove your point about giant population centers you select an article focusing on university campuses, which are very specifically enclaves that are not a good comparison to population centers. And yes, I've read the article, but it's not relevant to this discussion. If you want to talk about ideological echo chambers on college campuses, just say that. I"d agree that any thinking that closes you off to other beliefs is problematic. Which is why I would never vote for someone like Donald Trump, in example.

    It's the coasts that provide openness to social change, and offer a variety of ideologies and thinking - and acceptance. That openness is born out of interacting with a variety of human beings. That they're more likely to vote liberal is a *result* of that openness. You should really stop butchering the application of the phrase "echo chamber." (I'm happy Kristof introduced you to a new phrase, you should probably understand why he uses it and in what context. It doesn't just mean "Libruls need to unnerstand the common white guy better.")

    It wasn't the coasts that elected a racist xenophobe who has contempt for the very country and institutions he's about to lead.
    No idea why you get such a chubby out of being pompous on the interwebs. You're the one that needs to read what you quote. Why don't you go back and tell me where I said, or even inferred, what I've bolded in your comment above. I know twisting other people's words is your thing, and then taking what they didn't say and using it to make your keyboard seem superior to other anonymous keyboards is your chat room piece de la resistance, but its really boring. Not that the general lack of interest in your antics will discourage you. Sadly, the opposite is true.

  5. #36705
    time of my life ... ajra21's Avatar
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Ordinarily I'd probably agree, at least in part, with Maynerd and NerfBall (I think it was) on the issue of tax returns. In general, they're not as big a deal as people make them out to be.

    In this case, though, there are a couple of things that are different:
    1. It would really be nice if once, just once, in any area, Trump deliberately lived up to ethical norms just because they're there. It would be really nice if he showed even a glimmer of understanding that ethics matter, and the appearance of ethics matters, both for him and his administration. In that context, releasing the tax returns would be a little gesture in the right direction. Instead we get the same "under audit" lie.

    2. It would actually be important to know about Trump's debt, more than his income. How much does owe, and to whom? How about thevRussians, say? There may well be nothing. Show us.
    agreed.
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    who made the rain come; Seagulls sing your hearts away;
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  6. #36706

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Ordinarily I'd probably agree, at least in part, with Maynerd and NerfBall (I think it was) on the issue of tax returns. In general, they're not as big a deal as people make them out to be.

    In this case, though, there are a couple of things that are different:
    1. It would really be nice if once, just once, in any area, Trump deliberately lived up to ethical norms just because they're there. It would be really nice if he showed even a glimmer of understanding that ethics matter, and the appearance of ethics matters, both for him and his administration. In that context, releasing the tax returns would be a little gesture in the right direction. Istead we get the same "under audit" lie.

    2. It would actually be important to know about Trump's debt, more than his income. How much does owe, and to whom? How about thevRussians, say? There may well be nothing. Show us.
    This would amount (as a comparison) to nothing more than Hillary releasing the transcripts to her paid speeches. I doubt that it would influence opinions of those who had already made up their minds.

    Do you think that if everything were golden in his tax returns that you, and the usual coming out of the woodwork gang, would do a 180 on your opinions of him, or that it would even make a dent? Just look at everything else he's getting slammed for -- some petty, some lies, some stretching the truth, to go along with some real, legitimate concerns. I mean, somebody even tried so hard to legitimize the pee story by posting and misrepresenting a NY Times article, prefacing it with a "gotcha!"

    Personally, I don't think that the most vocal haters want to see any positives and I'm convinced that they get off on the bashing. Then there are those who are in complete meltdown mode (we know who you are!). So, would it really matter? Let's be truthful with ourselves.



  7. #36707

    Re: Election 2016

    WSJ editorial on The Obama Legacy


    Mr. Obama was always going to be a historic President by dint of his election as the first African-American to hold the office. His victory affirmed the American ideal that anyone can aspire and win political power. This affirmation was all the better because Mr. Obama won in large part thanks to his cool temperament amid the financial crisis and his considerable personal talents.

    Yet his Presidency has been a disappointment at home and abroad, a fact ironically underscored by Mr. Obama’s relentless insistence that he has been a success. In his many farewell interviews, he has laid out what he regards as his main achievements: reviving the economy after the Great Recession, a giant step toward national health care, new domestic regulations and a global pact to combat climate change, the Iran nuclear deal, and a world where America is merely one nation among many others in settling global disputes rather than promoting its democratic values.
    Even on their own terms those achievements look evanescent. Congress has teed up ObamaCare for repeal, and Donald Trump will erase the climate rules. The global climate pact is built on promises without enforcement, and Mr. Trump ran against and won in part on the slow economic recovery. Authoritarians are on the march around the world as they haven’t been since the 1970s, and perhaps the 1930s.

    ***
    These results flow both from the progressive agenda he pursued and the way he tried to implement it. He took power in 2009 with historic Democratic majorities, and he made the mistake of using them to fulfill 40 years of unmet progressive dreams.

    From his first days he let Democratic Speaker Nancy Pelosi write the stimulus and ObamaCare, to the exclusion of Republicans. “I won,” he famously replied when Eric Cantor asked him to consider Republican economic ideas. The result is that his legislative achievements were built on partisan votes that now make them vulnerable to partisan repeal.

    Mr. Obama rejected bipartisanship even after he lost Congress—the House in 2010 and Senate in 2014. He walked away from a budget deal with John Boehner in 2011 at the last minute because he wanted more tax increases. In his second term he all but disdained Congress, preferring to rule by regulation.

    This was a gamble that he could elect a Democratic successor to protect his executive orders, but his immigration and other rules can be erased by Mr. Trump or Congress. By rejecting the hard work of building political consensus, Mr. Obama built much of his legacy on sand.

    ***
    Mr. Obama’s progressive agenda failed most acutely on its core promise of economic “fairness.” The President made income redistribution to address inequality his top policy priority, above economic growth. The result has been the slowest expansion since World War II and even more inequality.

    Higher taxes and wave after wave of new regulation dampened investment, while expanded entitlements and transfer payments lured more Americans out of the workforce. After the 2009 spending bill failed to spur durable growth, the White House relied almost entirely on the Federal Reserve to prevent another recession. The Fed was able to raise asset prices, which has helped the relatively affluent who own assets, but it couldn’t ignite the broad-based expansion and new business creation to lift average incomes.

    The Reagan and Bill Clinton expansions left the public in an optimistic mood. Illegal immigration and trade deficits were larger than during the Obama years, but Americans worried less about both because they could see the tide rising for everyone. The slow-growth Obama years created the dry political tinder for Mr. Trump’s campaign against immigration and foreign trade.

    ***
    The story is in many ways even worse on foreign policy. When Reagan left office the Soviet Union was in retreat and the Cold War nearing its end. As Mr. Obama leaves office, the gains of the post-Cold War era are being lost as world disorder spreads.

    This too flows from Mr. Obama’s progressive worldview. He fulfilled his 2008 campaign promise to reduce America’s global involvement, especially in the Middle East, but his willy-nilly retreat has led to more chaos. He deposed a dictator in Libya but walked away from the aftermath. His decision to leave Iraq let him claim the “tide of war is receding” as he ran for re-election in 2012, but it allowed Islamic State to gestate there and in Syria as he let its civil war burn out of control.

    The President’s calls for a world without nuclear weapons have been met by the acceleration of nuclear programs in North Korea and Pakistan. A “reset” with Moscow did nothing to alter Vladimir Putin ’s revanchism in Ukraine and beyond. Reductions in U.S. military spending have emboldened China to press for regional dominance in East and Southeast Asia.

    Whether his deal with Iran prevents that country from becoming a nuclear power won’t be known for several years, but it has already helped Iran fund its terrorist proxies in Syria, Lebanon and Yemen. His outreach to Cuba may be historic but so far it has yielded no benefits for the Cuban people.

    ***
    Perhaps the most decisive verdict on the Obama era is the sour public mood. While Americans like and respect the President personally, which explains his approval rating, on Election Day they said by nearly 2 to 1 that the country is on the wrong track. Even race relations, which should have improved under Mr. Obama’s leadership and example, seem to have become worse. His polarizing Presidency has now yielded an equally polarizing successor.

    The lesson is not that Mr. Obama lacked good intentions or political gifts. Few Presidents have entered office with so much goodwill. The lesson is that progressive policies won’t work when they abjure the realities of economic incentives at home and the necessity of American leadership abroad.


    http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-obama-legacy-1484006700



  8. #36708
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Aside from absolutely nailing on your objectives of mocking people's faith, stereotyping people of a certain region of the country, and injecting that elitist snark you're clearly addicted to...

    ...I have no idea how this relates to what I posted in the slightest.
    I thought it important to put Kristoff's rather oversimplifed OpEd piece in proper context.

    I don't hold the belief that facts and science are bastions for echo chambers, particularly so when their antithesis is so often faith-based denial. There is room for multiple schools of thought, of course. And they get debated at colleges and universities rigorously, every single day.

    He actually points out:

    Half of academics said in a survey they would discriminate in hiring decisions against an evangelical.
    ...And? This is necessarily a bad thing? How many evangelicals would hire an atheist or an agnostic? Without the context of fields of study, this statement is meaningless. Other than discovery, science has no agenda. How does one reconcile tolerance of ignorance, other than to encourage the young mind to open a text book?

    At any rate, Trump isn't a conservative. He's more of a nihilist. Why single-out young Americans to become more tolerant in the face of this? Every conservative intellectual and newspaper spoke out against him during the election as an unprecedented danger to the republic.

  9. #36709

    Re: Election 2016

    Nobody cares about the Obamacare vote in the middle of the night?

    From Shaun King:

    Republicans literally voted at 1:30AM in the morning to ban coverage for pre-existing conditions & all other ESSENTIAL aspects of Obamacare.

    Even as Democrats proposed amendments saving many of the most important features of the Affordable Care Act, Republicans refused.

    They have no other plan.

    What's wild, is that when I interview and ask everyday Republicans what they dislike about Obamacare, they don't even know. All they know is that Obama helped create it and that means they hate it.
    These people are truly despicable.
    Black Lives Matter.

  10. #36710

    Re: Election 2016

    I can't beat this drum enough. It's a threat to democracy.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...fake-news.html

    Thus the term “fake news”—the enduring catchphrase of the 2016 presidential campaign, initially used to describe made-up tales and internet hoaxes that tended to benefit Trump and damage Hillary Clinton—is fast becoming the nascent Trump administration’s rightwing-populist bludgeon to delegitimize the purveyors of real news.

  11. #36711

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by jlw1980 View Post
    Nobody cares about the Obamacare vote in the middle of the night?

    From Shaun King:



    These people are truly despicable.
    Every statement I've seen by the right says they will keep the pre-existing condition clause....did a quick google and got a USA today article updated 3 hours ago that said the same thing.

    Not saying it's wrong, but I don't see this story anywhere. I would think this would be a headline everywhere if they repealed this.
    Hideki Matsui is capable of anything

  12. #36712
    Pinpoint False1's Avatar
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    ...And? This is necessarily a bad thing? How many evangelicals would hire an atheist or an agnostic?
    Ah, I understand. Discrimination is ok, as long as it's your flavor of discrimination.

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo
    How does one reconcile tolerance of ignorance, other than to encourage the young mind to open a text book?
    And any political ideology that differs from yours = ignorance. From that article:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kristof
    The weakest argument against intellectual diversity is that conservatives or evangelicals have nothing to add to the conversation. “The idea that conservative ideas are dumb is so preposterous that you have to live in an echo chamber to think of it,” [Cass] Sunstein[, a Harvard professor, a liberal and a Democrat who worked in the Obama administration] told me.

    Of course, we shouldn’t empower racists and misogynists on campuses. But whatever some liberals think, “conservative” and “bigot” are not synonyms.
    Who is discouraging young people or anyone else from opening text books?

    At any rate, Trump isn't a conservative. He's more of a nihilist. Why single-out young Americans to become more tolerant in the face of this? Every conservative intellectual and newspaper spoke out against him during the election as an unprecedented danger to the republic.
    The author is also apprehensive about Trump. I'm not reading his message as "Embrace #yourpresident"... but more so "for us liberals to embrace the diversity we supposedly champion" and not, you know, discriminate against those with differing politics or assume their POVs are ignorant because they're different.

  13. #36713
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    I can't beat this drum enough. It's a threat to democracy.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...fake-news.html
    Before we blame Trump, wasn't Obama the one that started this BS and actually created a part of the government to actually combat it?

  14. #36714
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by ArodEra View Post
    This would amount (as a comparison) to nothing more than Hillary releasing the transcripts to her paid speeches. I doubt that it would influence opinions of those who had already made up their minds.

    Do you think that if everything were golden in his tax returns that you, and the usual coming out of the woodwork gang, would do a 180 on your opinions of him, or that it would even make a dent? Just look at everything else he's getting slammed for -- some petty, some lies, some stretching the truth, to go along with some real, legitimate concerns. I mean, somebody even tried so hard to legitimize the pee story by posting and misrepresenting a NY Times article, prefacing it with a "gotcha!"

    Personally, I don't think that the most vocal haters want to see any positives and I'm convinced that they get off on the bashing. Then there are those who are in complete meltdown mode (we know who you are!). So, would it really matter? Let's be truthful with ourselves.

    Yes, it would.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  15. #36715

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by ojo View Post
    I thought it important to put Kristoff's rather oversimplifed OpEd piece in proper context.

    I don't hold the belief that facts and science are bastions for echo chambers, particularly so when their antithesis is so often faith-based denial. There is room for multiple schools of thought, of course. And they get debated at colleges and universities rigorously, every single day.

    He actually points out:



    ...And? This is necessarily a bad thing? How many evangelicals would hire an atheist or an agnostic? Without the context of fields of study, this statement is meaningless. Other than discovery, science has no agenda. How does one reconcile tolerance of ignorance, other than to encourage the young mind to open a text book?

    At any rate, Trump isn't a conservative. He's more of a nihilist. Why single-out young Americans to become more tolerant in the face of this? Every conservative intellectual and newspaper spoke out against him during the election as an unprecedented danger to the republic.

    I would never tell anybody else what to believe or not..that's all a personal decision. But if somebody suspends belief in science and fact based reasoning and points towards stories of talking snakes and arks and, hell, Goldilocks and the three bears for that matter as their understanding of how the world was created and how it works, then, no, I wouldn't think they are fit to be in a leadership position or a role requiring critical thinking.

    It's one thing to say I'm tolerant. It's another to say I feel obligated to overlook their belief that fables are true.

  16. #36716

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    Every statement I've seen by the right says they will keep the pre-existing condition clause....did a quick google and got a USA today article updated 3 hours ago that said the same thing.

    Not saying it's wrong, but I don't see this story anywhere. I would think this would be a headline everywhere if they repealed this.
    Can't keep pre ex clause without also keeping the mandate. That would drive insurance companies out of business unless the government issues a huge subsidy to cover all the sick.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

  17. #36717

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    Every statement I've seen by the right says they will keep the pre-existing condition clause....did a quick google and got a USA today article updated 3 hours ago that said the same thing.

    Not saying it's wrong, but I don't see this story anywhere. I would think this would be a headline everywhere if they repealed this.
    It was a vote-a-rama on the Republican budget that will allow the reconciliation needed to dismantle the ACA with simple majority votes. It lays the groundwork. Dems proposed amendments that would require them to keep children under 26, pre-existing conditions, contraception and a few other things and none of them passed meaning they can be eliminated if that's what is proposed.

  18. #36718

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Can't keep pre ex clause without also keeping the mandate. That would drive insurance companies out of business unless the government issues a huge subsidy to cover all the sick.
    I know that the math doesn't work yet to keep that piece and take away mandate. That's something we're going to have to wait and see WTF they do.

    But if the pre-ex was overturned last night, I'd expect it to be everywhere today.
    Hideki Matsui is capable of anything

  19. #36719

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    It was a vote-a-rama on the Republican budget that will allow the reconciliation needed to dismantle the ACA with simple majority votes. It lays the groundwork. Dems proposed amendments that would require them to keep children under 26, pre-existing conditions, contraception and a few other things and none of them passed meaning they can be eliminated if that's what is proposed.
    Thanks.

    So they DIDN'T vote to eliminate pre-existing conditions.
    Hideki Matsui is capable of anything

  20. #36720

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    I think...I hope...this is going to eventually bite him hard. You cannot be at war with your own institutions before they open the drain and shove you into it. I think the recent intelligence leak was a shot across his bow. It doesn't take a massive uprising, just a few well placed sources working with a media that knows he hates them all.

    It is time for the media to get in the game though. At today's press conference, they should have all insisted he respond to CNN. Also, that he stacked the room with lackeys to clap and cheer should have been taken as an insult to them.
    Come on man, that is pretty rich. The Obama Administration has been doing this for the past four years.

  21. #36721

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by ClownPickle View Post
    Before we blame Trump, wasn't Obama the one that started this BS and actually created a part of the government to actually combat it?
    No. You're confusing true fake news from websites designed to publish disinformation with the real news from legitimate sources being called fake by Team Trump when they don't like it. It's an important distinction and it's not BS at all.

  22. #36722

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    I know that the math doesn't work yet to keep that piece and take away mandate. That's something we're going to have to wait and see WTF they do.

    But if the pre-ex was overturned last night, I'd expect it to be everywhere today.
    If it was or wasn't isn't the issue. They simply cannot keep the pre ex provision without requiring everyone to be insured. The issue with Obamacare is it wasn't truly mandatory. They could pay a penalty and many did. So they had too many sick people enrolled and not enough well people. If they got rid of the mandate but still outlawed pre ex, it would be even worse.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

  23. #36723

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    If it was or wasn't isn't the issue. They simply cannot keep the pre ex provision without requiring everyone to be insured. The issue with Obamacare is it wasn't truly mandatory. They could pay a penalty and many did. So they had too many sick people enrolled and not enough well people. If they got rid of the mandate but still outlawed pre ex, it would be even worse.
    It's the issue I was discussing.

    Sounds like this statement by "Shaun King"

    Republicans literally voted at 1:30AM in the morning to ban coverage for pre-existing conditions & all other ESSENTIAL aspects of Obamacare.
    is a misinterpretation or ignorance at best but more like flat out wrong or a lie.

    It's a repeat of the cycle of fake news designed to keep people overreacting.
    Hideki Matsui is capable of anything

  24. #36724

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    It's the issue I was discussing.

    Sounds like this statement by "Shaun King"

    is a misinterpretation or ignorance at best but more like flat out wrong or a lie.

    It's a repeat of the cycle of fake news designed to keep people overreacting.
    Understood but to me in the end not really important as it can't be kept in the end as a stand alone clause. But we will see what they have planned. My expectations are real low as they don't seem to have an idea what they are doing
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

  25. #36725

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfBall55 View Post
    It's the issue I was discussing.

    Sounds like this statement by "Shaun King"

    is a misinterpretation or ignorance at best but more like flat out wrong or a lie.

    It's a repeat of the cycle of fake news designed to keep people overreacting.
    Is a personal post on someone's facebook page news, fake or otherwise? That's the only place I'm seeing that Shaun King quote.

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