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Thread: Election 2016

  1. #36601
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Not so. Maynerd was a fan of the Electoral College long before the 2016 election.


    My preference for s State-centric methodology for selecting the President is based on population distribution and the very nature of our Republic. If popular votes select the President, candidates will concentrate on the population centers (NY, LA, Chicago) to the detriment of most of the nation. Elected officials with national-level aspirations will do the same. The "flyover states" will become even less significant. We're a Republic, and not a Democracy. We're a collection of individual states, and not a cohesive population.
    But it's not that way now so you your really aren't comparing anything.

    No democrat currently has any incentive whatsoever to campaign or advertise in Utah, Idaho, Kansas... and No Republican has any incentive to campaign or advertise in DC, Deleware, Hawaii...

    It's all just a handful of states.

    As was mentioned 80,000 votes across just "the right" 3 states would have been enough flip the election. You say that 2.8M votes is meaningless but only 2.8% of 2.8M was enough to change the outcome of the election or roughly 0.03% of the US population.

    Under a 1 person, 1 vote system that changes as every vote no matter what state it is from matters.
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  2. #36602
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    Who said anything about petards?
    I did.
    A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines.
    - Barry Manilow

  3. #36603
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Soriambi View Post
    I have to agree on this one. I'm not following the line of logic at all. I don't follow why the elimination of state governments follows the abolishment of the electoral college...
    Because the Electoral College defends the nature of the Republic...that certain power rests with the several states, and not with the majority of the population. If we're to wrest any influence States have in the selection of the President, what benefit do we have in even HAVING individual states? If we're to divide the number of EC votes for a state by the number of citizens to claim the EC is unfair, how can we possibly justify the US Senate? Popular vote would be a sweeping move toward a Democracy, rather than a Republic, and what role do individual states play in a one-man, one-vote democracy? They'd just be useless, inefficient bureaucracies (of course, one might be able to make that argument now).
    ...and the comparison of the issue to the black lives matter movement is just weird.
    Under a popular vote scenario, the citizens of Mississippi or Oklahoma would be an oppressed minority, subject to the whims of metropolitan population centers, no? I'm just looking out for the well-being of an oppressed minority.

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  4. #36604
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    The point is moot. It would take a Constitutional Amendment to change how we select the President
    It's not moot. That's exactly what I want. An amendment to the Constitution.

    Will it be easy. Heck no. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.
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  5. #36605
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Because the Electoral College defends the nature of the Republic...that certain power rests with the several states, and not with the majority of the population. If we're to wrest any influence States have in the selection of the President, what benefit do we have in even HAVING individual states? If we're to divide the number of EC votes for a state by the number of citizens to claim the EC is unfair, how can we possibly justify the US Senate? Popular vote would be a sweeping move toward a Democracy, rather than a Republic, and what role do individual states play in a one-man, one-vote democracy? They'd just be useless, inefficient bureaucracies (of course, one might be able to make that argument now).
    This is a ludicrous argument made only in your own mind.

    It is so absurd I don't even know where to begin.

    Under a popular vote scenario, the citizens of Mississippi or Oklahoma would be an oppressed minority, subject to the whims of metropolitan population centers, no? I'm just looking out for the well-being of an oppressed minority.
    Umm the loser of the election is always in the minority.

    Well except for this year when the winner is in the minority too.

    So according to you every state that voted for Hillary is now an oppressed minority? Or I guess oppressed majority?

    Your logic makes no logical sense Maynerd.
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  6. #36606

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Because the Electoral College defends the nature of the Republic...that certain power rests with the several states, and not with the majority of the population. If we're to wrest any influence States have in the selection of the President, what benefit do we have in even HAVING individual states? If we're to divide the number of EC votes for a state by the number of citizens to claim the EC is unfair, how can we possibly justify the US Senate? Popular vote would be a sweeping move toward a Democracy, rather than a Republic, and what role do individual states play in a one-man, one-vote democracy? They'd just be useless, inefficient bureaucracies (of course, one might be able to make that argument now).
    Under a popular vote scenario, the citizens of Mississippi or Oklahoma would be an oppressed minority, subject to the whims of metropolitan population centers, no? I'm just looking out for the well-being of an oppressed minority.
    Having your vote count as equal to every other citizen is not oppression.

  7. #36607

    Re: Election 2016

    Trump will not take questions from CNN any longer after all the "fake news". Trump, news that you don't like is not fake news. One CNN reported today was threatened with removal for asking a question. First amendment is taking a serious hit under this moron.
    What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

  8. #36608

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    It's not moot. That's exactly what I want. An amendment to the Constitution.

    Will it be easy. Heck no. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted.

    Based on the changing demographics, population centers, and the '00/'16 popular vote...switching to a popular vote would help the Dems and hurt the GOP.

    Which means at this time, there's little to no chance of it being changed. And based on Republican control, no chance might be more accurate.

    Just curious, because many out there agree with you...is there currently an organized effort to overturn the EC, or is the issue dying down?
    It won't be long before we can all forget Cano and realize that Castro can be everything Robinson was for us. - Retired_Doc

  9. #36609
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    And no, Idaho and Iowa aren't minority groups.
    Only if you're unwilling to classify "Iowans" as a group.


    There are 38M Californians. There are 26M Texans. There are 19M New Yorkers and Floridians. And there are just 3M Iowans and 1.6M Idahoans. How are they NOT minorities?


    I've never understood racism because I find race to be a bizarre and arbitrary way of defining people. What does skin color have to do with a person's value or.......humanity? I have blue eyes. Only about 8% of the world's population share this trait. Yet, to the best of my knowledge, no one has ever made a value judgment on me based on eye color. So, why would anyone make a judgment based on skin color? It makes absolutely no sense.


    But, POC have been oppressed for this reason, based on nothing more than ignorance. From where does that ignorance originate? Numbers. More white people than black people, so the white people made all the rules.


    Well, there are more New York people and California people than Iowa people. Numbers. And now, the California people want to make all the rules. To me, that makes the Iowa people a minority.


    [Also the blue-eyed people, but that doesn't seem to be an issue.]

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  10. #36610

    Re: Election 2016

    "Clinton" News Network:

    In his first news conference since winning the election, a combative Trump made clear he will not mute his style when he is inaugurated in nine days. He lashed out at media and political foes alike in a bravura performance.
    Dear media,

    Please. Stop. Doing. That.

    -yours in Jesus, GC

  11. #36611

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregorius Chant View Post
    "Clinton" News Network:



    Dear media,

    Please. Stop. Doing. That.

    -yours in Jesus, GC
    They need to get back in his good graces so he'll let them ask a question next time. His disdain for and dismissal of the press is terrifying. They are us, the people. And they seem to be terrified of him for reasons I don't understand.

  12. #36612
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    They need to get back in his good graces so he'll let them ask a question next time. His disdain for and dismissal of the press is terrifying. They are us, the people. And they seem to be terrified of him for reasons I don't understand.
    Indeed, they are.

  13. #36613
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    Based on the changing demographics, population centers, and the '00/'16 popular vote...switching to a popular vote would help the Dems and hurt the GOP.

    Which means at this time, there's little to no chance of it being changed. And based on Republican control, no chance might be more accurate.

    Just curious, because many out there agree with you...is there currently an organized effort to overturn the EC, or is the issue dying down?
    I don't think there is much of a one and it's an issue that sadly will die down.

    I thought one of the CA Senators was trying to introduce an amendment right after the election results but I don't think that went anywhere and I haven't heard anything since.

    And you are right, it probably won't happen. But again that doesn't mean it shouldn't and while it might not happen now, maybe it can change in my lifetime.
    Baseball is life;
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  14. #36614
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    If you had no knowledge of idiomatic English - if you knew no English, in fact, and were translating literally, word-for-word from an Arizona-English dictionary, you might be confused by my phrasing. However, in that case, you would probably be confused by a whole lot of things that are said to you.


    Your objection has nothing to do with actual language use. You did not read my post and say, "Ah, he means that he cares a little bit." You read it and said, "Gotcha! A phrase that, if analyzed literally according to rules of grammar, means the exact opposite of what I actually do know he is saying!" Yes, it means the opposite, hence my use of the word "ironic." The phrase has a better ring, and it's more fun in casual use, especially since it pisses off some people. But since there's zero loss of communicative value - you knew exactly what I was saying - it don't make no nevermind to me if you disapprove.
    Irregardless, I could care less.

  15. #36615
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    His disdain for and dismissal of the press is terrifying. They are us, the people. And they seem to be terrified of him for reasons I don't understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by ojo
    Indeed, they are.
    One would think the press would be salivating at the very idea of the impending train wreck. This is how you sell papers (yes, I still read the paper every day. I'm old. Get over it.), or web clicks or whatever. You can show respect for the office without kowtowing to the office-holder. There's no reason for the "fourth branch of government" to hold back, if any of the other branches are out of line.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  16. #36616
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Irregardless, I could care less.
    Well played, False1.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  17. #36617

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    I don't think there is much of a one and it's an issue that sadly will die down.

    I thought one of the CA Senators was trying to introduce an amendment right after the election results but I don't think that went anywhere and I haven't heard anything since.

    And you are right, it probably won't happen. But again that doesn't mean it shouldn't and while it might not happen now, maybe it can change in my lifetime.
    It's not quite the same thing, but I think the CA Senators should try to introduce something that will make the EC in Calfornia (and the other states) proportional to their population. The inequality between state population and the number of electoral votes seems to be simpler to adjust than getting rid of the EC completely.
    It won't be long before we can all forget Cano and realize that Castro can be everything Robinson was for us. - Retired_Doc

  18. #36618

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    They need to get back in his good graces so he'll let them ask a question next time. His disdain for and dismissal of the press is terrifying. They are us, the people. And they seem to be terrified of him for reasons I don't understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Trump will not take questions from CNN any longer after all the "fake news". Trump, news that you don't like is not fake news. One CNN reported today was threatened with removal for asking a question. First amendment is taking a serious hit under this moron.

    General questions to anyone:

    How does the pecking order work? Do certain news organizations sit in the front row? Are the questions prearranged ahead of time, in terms of who asks them? Is freezing out a specific news organization from asking a live question a new strategy? I imagine Obama did the same with Fox News.
    It won't be long before we can all forget Cano and realize that Castro can be everything Robinson was for us. - Retired_Doc

  19. #36619
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    It's not quite the same thing, but I think the CA Senators should try to introduce something that will make the EC in Calfornia (and the other states) proportional to their population. The inequality between state population and the number of electoral votes seems to be simpler to adjust than getting rid of the EC completely.
    Something like that already exists and doesn't require a constitutional amendment. It's a compact between the states that will give all EV of a state to the winner of the National Vote but only kicks in if states totaling more than 50% of t he EVs agree.

    And there is zero incentive for any state to split their EV proportional to state popular vote unless all 50% states agree to do the same.
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  20. #36620
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    College was costing too much, and a lot of people couldn't afford to send their kids. So, the government stepped in and created Stafford Loans, so everyone could go. With more money available to pay for college, guess what happened to college costs? They skyrocketed.


    Housing was costing too much, and a lot of people couldn't afford to buy a home. So, the government stepped in and relaxed restrictions on who could qualify for mortgages. With more money available to buy houses, guess what happened to home values? They skyrocketed.


    Someone explain to me again how government intervention is the solution to healthcare costs.
    This is what I keep coming back to as well. These are good examples of where government engaged in efforts to solve problems, and in spite of good intentions either exacerbated those problems or just replaced them with new ones.

    Whether it's healthcare or education costs, I can't understand why 100% of the political discussion is around how pays for it versus what we can do about the costs themselves.

  21. #36621

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    This is what I keep coming back to as well. These are good examples of where government engaged in efforts to solve problems, and in spite of good intentions either exacerbated those problems or just replaced them with new ones.

    Whether it's healthcare or education costs, I can't understand why 100% of the political discussion is around how pays for it versus what we can do about the costs themselves.
    Single payer would address both problems.

  22. #36622
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    This is what I keep coming back to as well. These are good examples of where government engaged in efforts to solve problems, and in spite of good intentions either exacerbated those problems or just replaced them with new ones.

    Whether it's healthcare or education costs, I can't understand why 100% of the political discussion is around how pays for it versus what we can do about the costs themselves.
    Because Banks, Private Education, and Private Healthcare have already shown they have zero incentive to reduce costs themselves.

    And numerous countries where it is is done have been shown to be cheaper and more effective.
    Baseball is life;
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  23. #36623

    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by melon View Post
    General questions to anyone:

    How does the pecking order work? Do certain news organizations sit in the front row? Are the questions prearranged ahead of time, in terms of who asks them? Is freezing out a specific news organization from asking a live question a new strategy? I imagine Obama did the same with Fox News.
    Obama has had a strained relationship with FOX. They have not been shut out although they do have noticeably fewer opportunities to ask questions than the other major networks. During his first term, they actually tried to ban them from the press pool but the other networks objected and forced the issue. Seating assignments for the daily briefings are determined by the White House Correspondents Association, not POTUS or the WH staff.

  24. #36624
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Because Banks, Private Education, and Private Healthcare have already shown they have zero incentive to reduce costs themselves.
    And when the government stepped in to "fix" the banks, houses got more expensive. And when the government stepped in to "fix" private education, it got more expensive. And when the government stepped in to "fix" health care coverage, it got more expensive.


    That's why I'm not convinced this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara
    Single payer would address both problems.
    ...is remotely close to reality.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
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  25. #36625
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    Re: Election 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Because Banks, Private Education, and Private Healthcare have already shown they have zero incentive to reduce costs themselves.
    Of course. How does this address my question though? Let's take education... because as an industry they are not self-motivated to reduce what are clearly runaway costs, the answer is to increase the supply of dollars given to those who elect to pursue higher education (increasing supply of funds to continue the cost increases) and then when that doesn't solve the problem, just mask it by spreading those massive and growing costs across all taxpayers?

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