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  1. #5301

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    Fine. We'll do things your way.

    So no.
    I guess the dictionary is a valid reference again.

    An environment in which a person encounters only beliefs or opinions that coincide with their own, so that their existing views are reinforced and alternative ideas are not considered.
    Close enough.

    Alternative views are encountered, but mocked, marginalized and declared invalid and pointless.

  2. #5302
    Reject Fascism
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Sorry not being told how to post. I have no desire to debate for the sake of debating. Have no interest in ďwinningĒ an argument or playing gotchya! If I agree with a statement or a point being made I will agree with it. And if I donít I will definitely the same. Period.
    2018: the year the USA put children in cages

  3. #5303

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeePride1967 View Post
    Sorry not being told how to post. I have no desire to debate for the sake of debating. Have no interest in ďwinningĒ an argument or playing gotchya! If I agree with a statement or a point being made I will agree with it. And if I donít I will definitely the same. Period.
    Nobody cares how you post.

  4. #5304
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I guess the dictionary is a valid reference again.
    Sorry. I was just trying to use your preferred method of discussion. Aim to please.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Alternative views are encountered, but mocked, marginalized and declared invalid and pointless.
    Yeah. Some of you really should try to be a little offensive when you disagree with people's posts.

  5. #5305
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    You interrupted a conversation about individual racism and have repeatedly tried to make it about systemic racism. The only reason I'm having a discussion by myself is because every time I ask a question involving individual racism, you throw a fit.
    I didnít interrupt a conversation about individual racism, because even then you were the only person talking about it. And I havenít thrown a fit, Iíve just said Iím not interested in that conversation. The only reason youíre having a discussion by yourself is that no one else is interested in talking about it.

  6. #5306

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    I guess the dictionary is a valid reference again.



    Close enough.

    Alternative views are encountered, but mocked, marginalized and declared invalid and pointless.
    I can't speak for everybody, but I do believe most in here are here for an honest exchange of ideas and debate. Internet forums being what they are, I realize that's a slippery slope, but I don't think most come here just to have their views validated.

    But do you think that when one takes a contrary position to the conventional established wisdom that he or she has an obligation of sorts to acknowledge what they DO agree with before making their point? I know, I know, you're likely going to say something such as "there is nothing in the bylaws" or "who made you the gatekeeper" or whatever...and here again, you'd technically be correct but the statement would be worthless.

    Let's be fair. I'm not trying to mock you, but you, with inordinate frequency, end up in the middle of these ridiculously long debates over semantics and argue over things as if in a court of law. It leads to wasted time, suspensions, frustration and silliness on the part of all.

    How about trying to couch things a little bit differently? I gave an example yesterday. Instead of just blurting out like rainman, "white people face racism too" or something like that, how about taking some effort to couch your point within the context of a belief system that you claim to share? Or even starting your response as "I get what you are saying...but consider this..."

    Such as "hey, I know Donald Trump is in all likelihood a serial abuser of women...he's said as much and plenty of women validate what he said about himself....BUT, I do wonder about this latest one for the following reasons..."

    Because a statement like that allows people who don't have time to read over every freaking post in here to realize you're not looking for a gotcha against his accusers but rather pointing out a specific instance where they may be some doubt. Not everybody has the time you have to spend in here...do you believe you have no obligation to present the context of your point and just the point itself?

    I don't know how you're wired and maybe it's just a form of online Tourette's and there is no negative intent behind it. More likely, I suspect you enjoy sparking a certain kind of debate by appearing to the uninitiated to be, for example, a Trump supporter or person who believes whites are just as likely to be discriminated against as minorities. You eventually come around and acknowledge that point, but if you could work on ways to make it clear in your posts that you are focusing on a specific point that isn't a stand alone one, maybe you'd have less conflict, less timeouts, etc.

    I realize there is pretty good chance you're going to come back and bash me now, but maybe if you'd consider just working in some phrases that indicate to people you aren't taking the entire contrarian view (you usually end up having to do that anyway), people would listen to you more.

  7. #5307

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    I didnít interrupt a conversation about individual racism, because even then you were the only person talking about it. And I havenít thrown a fit, Iíve just said Iím not interested in that conversation. The only reason youíre having a discussion by yourself is that no one else is interested in talking about it.
    You have it wrong.

    I was talking about individual racism. You acknowledged this from the beginning.

    Your repeated attempts to change the topic to systemic racism to the exclusion of any other conversation is what created an issue here. It isn't me that has a problem. I'll talk about either one. You don't see me refusing to continue the conversation if someone brings up systemic racism.

  8. #5308

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by YankeeFan1421 View Post
    I can't speak for everybody, but I do believe most in here are here for an honest exchange of ideas and debate. Internet forums being what they are, I realize that's a slippery slope, but I don't think most come here just to have their views validated.

    But do you think that when one takes a contrary position to the conventional established wisdom that he or she has an obligation of sorts to acknowledge what they DO agree with before making their point? I know, I know, you're likely going to say something such as "there is nothing in the bylaws" or "who made you the gatekeeper" or whatever...and here again, you'd technically be correct but the statement would be worthless.

    Let's be fair. I'm not trying to mock you, but you, with inordinate frequency, end up in the middle of these ridiculously long debates over semantics and argue over things as if in a court of law. It leads to wasted time, suspensions, frustration and silliness on the part of all.

    How about trying to couch things a little bit differently? I gave an example yesterday. Instead of just blurting out like rainman, "white people face racism too" or something like that, how about taking some effort to couch your point within the context of a belief system that you claim to share? Or even starting your response as "I get what you are saying...but consider this..."

    Such as "hey, I know Donald Trump is in all likelihood a serial abuser of women...he's said as much and plenty of women validate what he said about himself....BUT, I do wonder about this latest one for the following reasons..."

    Because a statement like that allows people who don't have time to read over every freaking post in here to realize you're not looking for a gotcha against his accusers but rather pointing out a specific instance where they may be some doubt. Not everybody has the time you have to spend in here...do you believe you have no obligation to present the context of your point and just the point itself?

    I don't know how you're wired and maybe it's just a form of online Tourette's and there is no negative intent behind it. More likely, I suspect you enjoy sparking a certain kind of debate by appearing to the uninitiated to be, for example, a Trump supporter or person who believes whites are just as likely to be discriminated against as minorities. You eventually come around and acknowledge that point, but if you could work on ways to make it clear in your posts that you are focusing on a specific point that isn't a stand alone one, maybe you'd have less conflict, less timeouts, etc.

    I realize there is pretty good chance you're going to come back and bash me now, but maybe if you'd consider just working in some phrases that indicate to people you aren't taking the entire contrarian view (you usually end up having to do that anyway), people would listen to you more.
    Do me a favor.

    Stop with the passive-aggressive fake concern posts.

    You're not as slick as you think.

    Go ahead and play innocent victim now.

  9. #5309

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    Do me a favor.

    Stop with the passive-aggressive fake concern posts.

    You're not as slick as you think.

    Go ahead and play innocent victim now.
    Okay then.

  10. #5310
    New Murderer's Row False1's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by JL25and3 View Post
    Sure you are. Youíre complaining about people interrupting a conversation about individual racism to talk about institutional racism. In fact, youíre the only person interested in talking about individual racism. Youre having a discussion with yourself, and insisting that everyone else is interrupting.
    Iím interested in talking about it, insomuch as structural racism/sexism is an aggregation of individual racist/sexist views. Affecting individual -ism tendencies would be a pathway towards affecting structural ones, no? People with biases would be more open to being honestly introspective if they werenít categorized as racists or sexist by people that that convey their own racist or sexist views Iíd imagine. Why canít we be against both forms?

  11. #5311
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Iím interested in talking about it, insomuch as structural racism/sexism is an aggregation of individual racist/sexist views. Affecting individual -ism tendencies would be a pathway towards affecting structural ones, no? People with biases would be more open to being honestly introspective if they werenít categorized as racists or sexist by people that that convey their own racist or sexist views Iíd imagine. Why canít we be against both forms?
    Of course we can be against both forms, but I disagree with your first sentence. Structural racism is in the structure, independently of ongoing individual racist views. That aggregation of individual views contributes to it, but they are not the same thing.

  12. #5312
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Coffee View Post
    You have it wrong.

    I was talking about individual racism. You acknowledged this from the beginning.

    Your repeated attempts to change the topic to systemic racism to the exclusion of any other conversation is what created an issue here. It isn't me that has a problem. I'll talk about either one. You don't see me refusing to continue the conversation if someone brings up systemic racism.
    Youíre correct, you were talking about individual racism, and Iíve acknowledged that from the beginning. But nobody else was.

  13. #5313
    Tends to be difficult JL25and3's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Maynerd asked us yesterday to stop this. At long last, Iím going to respect his wishes. False1, we can talk by PM, or the next time this comes up.

  14. #5314

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Iím interested in talking about it, insomuch as structural racism/sexism is an aggregation of individual racist/sexist views. Affecting individual -ism tendencies would be a pathway towards affecting structural ones, no? People with biases would be more open to being honestly introspective if they werenít categorized as racists or sexist by people that that convey their own racist or sexist views Iíd imagine. Why canít we be against both forms?
    The first bolded I don't agree with. It's the structural racism and sexism that informs and reinforces individual views. How white people see non-whites, how heterosexual men see non-heterosexual men and women is socially engineered from birth. The first means to sincerely address it is to acknowledge it exists without qualifier. Your last question doesn't make sense.

  15. #5315

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by False1 View Post
    Iím interested in talking about it, insomuch as structural racism/sexism is an aggregation of individual racist/sexist views. Affecting individual -ism tendencies would be a pathway towards affecting structural ones, no? People with biases would be more open to being honestly introspective if they werenít categorized as racists or sexist by people that that convey their own racist or sexist views Iíd imagine. Why canít we be against both forms?
    Lacking any data that I'm aware of that shows any race is more or less inclined to be racist than another, I think it is, unfortunately, a phenomenon that we cannot erase on a global level. Of course, we can effect how our kids think, perhaps how our close friends think (though more likely we self select our close friends based in part of their pre-existing beliefs).

    To me, racism comes from the dominant race in a society/economy. I realize the terms get confusing, because of the drunk guy on the corner who yelled 'cracker' at me when I walked by in a suit is considered, I guess, to be a racist. But I don't see that as racism. I see it as an angry man who likely would have called me an "n-word" had I been black.

    A statement I made earlier in this thread was that as a white man with pale skin, blue eyes and light brown hair, I've never once in my life been subjected to racism. I'd have to say that probably virtually every black man my age has had to deal with it, ranging from small to signficant matters. It's not because, in my view, that white people are inherently worse than minorities, but rather because I'm protected from racism on virtually every level.

    I'll never not get a job because of my race, I'll never be followed around a store because of my race and I'll never be treated differently at a traffic stop because of my race. To me, that's what racism is and white people are virtually immune to it all.

  16. #5316
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    [Moderator]

    Tedious, folks.

    I think everyone understands Mike's point of view, that he believes racism is a two-way street. Now, we may disagree as to the basis of reverse racism, or the societal impact of it. But I don't think anyone disagrees that it exists. Call it discrimination, rather than racism, if you like, but don't get down on someone that chooses to use the term racism to describe it.

    On the other hand, Mike understands the difference between institutional racism and individual racist acts, so you can stop trying to explain it to him.

    Please stop asking for examples where 'it happened to you.' That's trivial and will be dismissed as anecdotal. And those sorts of questions lead to the back-and-forth that derails the thread.

    Speaking of derailing the thread, it appears this thread is to discuss mass shootings. Let's put it back on that track, and discontinue the on-going discussion of whether reverse discrimination constitutes an -ism. No one is ever going to convince the other side that their point of view has any more merit.

    Thanks, everyone. I appreciate the discussion, but this horse is clearly dead.

    [/Moderator]
    [Moderator]

    I asked nicely, and it doesn't seem to have done any good.

    Stop. Stop now. No additional warnings. A couple week suspension right now will drive all the way up to Opening Day. If you want to enjoy talking about baseball, I suggest everyone stop arguing about whether or nor something constitutes racism.

    What part of 'tedious' do you people NOT understand?

    [/Moderator]

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  17. #5317

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Thanks, Maynerd. Hopefully that's the end of the thread derail. Much more important discussion needed regarding our horrible record of mass shootings.

    Question for you. Since the consensus coming out of the WH is to have teachers/administrative be trained to be armed during school sessions, Is it feasible to have National Guard be utilized as an alternative? 2 or 3 NG's in schools? Already trained and probably more adept then what trained teachers would be able to do in horrific situations.
    The presidency doesn't change who you are. It reveals who you are. First Lady Michelle Obama (2015)

  18. #5318
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Hopefully moving back to topic.

    Tomorrow is the planned National School Walkout.

    We got a call from our school last nigh that students who wish to participate in the walkout will be allowed to leave class but are not allowed to leave school grounds.

    Sounds like they have an event planned around it with student speeches in the quad and ending with a hand holding show of unity around the school before going back to class.

    I for one am thrilled my school has taken this proactive chance to have a genuine learning experience.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  19. #5319
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by BRenninger View Post
    Thanks, Maynerd. Hopefully that's the end of the thread derail. Much more important discussion needed regarding our horrible record of mass shootings.

    Question for you. Since the consensus coming out of the WH is to have teachers/administrative be trained to be armed during school sessions, Is it feasible to have National Guard be utilized as an alternative? 2 or 3 NG's in schools? Already trained and probably more adept then what trained teachers would be able to do in horrific situations.
    Feasible? Maybe. A good idea? I don't think so.

    Using National Guard rather than Active Duty troops is what could make it legally feasible. But, school safety is waaaaaaay outside the National Guard's charter. Why not use cops? And, regardless of who you bring in, who pays the bill?

    I suspect the whole concept of arming some teachers (which I think is a terrible plan) comes from the idea of NOT using additional human resources. No additional cost. Why do shooters go to schools? Lack of defensive weaponry. Weapon-free zones doesn't ensure our kids' safety; it tells a shooter that there's no opposition. But the introduction of weapons is inviting an accident or a cross-fire situation. Using teachers to do so likely has a higher probability of a future disaster, but doesn't have an incremental cost. Using National Guard or cops or whatever might be safer in the long run, but will cost a fortune.

    There's no good solution to this within the walls of the school. The solution needs to be in keeping the weapons out of the hands of people who shouldn't have access to them.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  20. #5320
    Nice is different than good. Texsahara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yankee Tripper View Post
    Hopefully moving back to topic.

    Tomorrow is the planned National School Walkout.

    We got a call from our school last nigh that students who wish to participate in the walkout will be allowed to leave class but are not allowed to leave school grounds.

    Sounds like they have an event planned around it with student speeches in the quad and ending with a hand holding show of unity around the school before going back to class.

    I for one am thrilled my school has taken this proactive chance to have a genuine learning experience.
    I think that is exactly what smart educators should do. The schools that are saying they will suspend students that walk out are missing a great opportunity. On a related note, I've had what I hope are irrational fears that someone would commit another shooting during the walkout. Its based on nothing but I can't shake it. The current environment kind of sucks.

  21. #5321
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Texsahara View Post
    I think that is exactly what smart educators should do. The schools that are saying they will suspend students that walk out are missing a great opportunity. On a related note, I've had what I hope are irrational fears that someone would commit another shooting during the walkout. Its based on nothing but I can't shake it. The current environment kind of sucks.
    Yeah I've had the same thoughts too. Sucks that we even need to consider something like that.
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  22. #5322
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Feasible? Maybe. A good idea? I don't think so.

    Using National Guard rather than Active Duty troops is what could make it legally feasible. But, school safety is waaaaaaay outside the National Guard's charter. Why not use cops? And, regardless of who you bring in, who pays the bill?

    I suspect the whole concept of arming some teachers (which I think is a terrible plan) comes from the idea of NOT using additional human resources. No additional cost. Why do shooters go to schools? Lack of defensive weaponry. Weapon-free zones doesn't ensure our kids' safety; it tells a shooter that there's no opposition. But the introduction of weapons is inviting an accident or a cross-fire situation. Using teachers to do so likely has a higher probability of a future disaster, but doesn't have an incremental cost. Using National Guard or cops or whatever might be safer in the long run, but will cost a fortune.

    There's no good solution to this within the walls of the school. The solution needs to be in keeping the weapons out of the hands of people who shouldn't have access to them.
    I pretty much agree with everything in this post.
    Baseball is life;
    the rest is just details.

  23. #5323

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    Feasible? Maybe. A good idea? I don't think so.

    Using National Guard rather than Active Duty troops is what could make it legally feasible. But, school safety is waaaaaaay outside the National Guard's charter. Why not use cops? And, regardless of who you bring in, who pays the bill?

    I suspect the whole concept of arming some teachers (which I think is a terrible plan) comes from the idea of NOT using additional human resources. No additional cost. Why do shooters go to schools? Lack of defensive weaponry. Weapon-free zones doesn't ensure our kids' safety; it tells a shooter that there's no opposition. But the introduction of weapons is inviting an accident or a cross-fire situation. Using teachers to do so likely has a higher probability of a future disaster, but doesn't have an incremental cost. Using National Guard or cops or whatever might be safer in the long run, but will cost a fortune.

    There's no good solution to this within the walls of the school. The solution needs to be in keeping the weapons out of the hands of people who shouldn't have access to them.
    Thanks for the reply. Mentally I'm going through all the teachers and administrative personnel at my kids schools and I'm not seeing not a single one who could be trained to be ready for any school shootings. Tornados, fires, grizzly bears ( That's DeVos's reason,) they could handle. It's not even just about the schools but include sporting events as well.
    The idea that we're even talking how to keep our kids safe in our schools makes me angry, pissed off, deflated and a host of all negative emotions.
    I'm sure in time a solution will rear it's ugly face.
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  24. #5324
    Get Off My Lawn. Maynerd's Avatar
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    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by BRenninger View Post
    I'm sure in time a solution will rear it's ugly face.
    I've said this before. You can't come up with a solution until you define the problem.

    Arming teachers (or cops or National Guardsmen) in schools is a solution ONLY if you define the problem as "when a gunman comes into the school, we can't shoot back." And if you solve this problem (in the schools), you're only going to relocate the soft target to movie theaters, sporting events, restaurants, anywhere people congregate.

    I'd prefer to define the problem as people having access to weapons they have no business getting their hands on. That can be any gun for people who are unstable (this is why I'm a proponent of background checks and waiting periods). It can be high-capacity-magazine semi-automatics (AR-15-type weapons) for virtually anybody.

    There's nothing ugly about the face of those solutions. They're politically unpopular, and they're an incomplete solution, in that someone will find different ways of killing people, if they're so inclined. But the time for those solutions is NOW. How many active shooter situations will it take for the American People to accept those solutions as a starting point? I think we're getting close.

    "But what people tend to forget...is that being a Yankee is as much about character as it is about performance; as much about who you are as what you do."
    - President Barack Obama

  25. #5325

    Re: Another day, another mass shooting in America

    Quote Originally Posted by Maynerd View Post
    I've said this before. You can't come up with a solution until you define the problem.

    Arming teachers (or cops or National Guardsmen) in schools is a solution ONLY if you define the problem as "when a gunman comes into the school, we can't shoot back." And if you solve this problem (in the schools), you're only going to relocate the soft target to movie theaters, sporting events, restaurants, anywhere people congregate.

    I'd prefer to define the problem as people having access to weapons they have no business getting their hands on. That can be any gun for people who are unstable (this is why I'm a proponent of background checks and waiting periods). It can be high-capacity-magazine semi-automatics (AR-15-type weapons) for virtually anybody.

    There's nothing ugly about the face of those solutions. They're politically unpopular, and they're an incomplete solution, in that someone will find different ways of killing people, if they're so inclined. But the time for those solutions is NOW. How many active shooter situations will it take for the American People to accept those solutions as a starting point? I think we're getting close.
    Aside from my concern of a teacher snapping and mowing down a classroom of kids in a room, fish in a barrel style, I also have to think these deranged gunmen could see it almost as a challenge then..."okay, I'll move onto a movie theater"....and then what is THAT solution? Moviegoers are incented to arm themselves as well?

    I would guess schools have been targeted because they are the most target rich and softest target. So even if they successfully harden that target a bit with armed teachers, does that mean a mass murderer of random people gives up and doesn't find ways to do the same elsewhere?

    I realize it hits most of us extra hard when it's kids involved...but then again, a kids movie would be at least half kids in the audience as well.

    Totally agree with your thoughts on keeping them out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them to begin with...along with a major revision to the 2nd Amendment, which would entail the right to apply for one bio-metrically enhanced pistol to be used for self defense...and every effort to find and confiscate illegal guns.

    We know it won't prevent all future mass murders, but if it lowers the incidence even a little, it's the thing to do.

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